Turntable got absolutely crushed by CD

edgewear, there are a number of variables involved in the physical CD itself that affect the sound. These variables are independent of the recording and the CD mastering. The physical CD variables include, but are not completely limited to, transparency of the clear layer, the reflectivity of the metal layer, the colors of the CD label, the accuracy of the CD circumference roundness relative to the spindle hole, the accuracy with which the pits and lands are placed on the disc during manufacture. The degree to which scattered background CD laser light degrades the sound can be affected by coloring the physical disc and or the disc player tray.

Perhaps, geoff...but, in my opinion, it is rare that any of these "variables" exist in sufficient magnitude to effect the audio signal sent to the speakers.  And, if they do, the human hear cannot detect whatever difference these "variables" might make.

Well, good for. You have an opinion.

n80:

For me part of the journey is having fun researching different gear to include auditioning. Buying previously owned is also an option as long as you make informed purchases.

I would not focus on buying an anolog source to out proform CD’s but to achieve a level of anologe audio you can enjoy. There are some really excellent Vintage turntables that out proform many modern decks, if spec mean anything.

With a level of risk and patients you can source good deals on excellent used cartridges and a variety of other analog gear. Of course buying new is alway preferred but from what I have read sometimes expectation aren’t meant.

N80

Agree that there are CDs and then there are CDs. I spend a fair amount of time researching which $6 CD to get. It pays off. Just like it does with vinyl but at $6 I’m way below what you pay for even average vinyl and around 1/3 the cost of HD Tracks stuff.

I guess I am very fortunate to have one of the best and most fairly priced LRS in the USA on my doorstep.
I can buy endless as new vinyl at $4 to $8 a pop that only need a wipe down to play.
Now their bargain bin $1 boxes also hold some gems that yes require a fair bit of cleaning but hey $1 a LP or 2 as got a lot of double albums out these bins too.

I have paid more dollars for vinyl I just had to have to complete a collection that is uber rare but that is the exception not the norm for me.

Good vinyl at fair prices IS out there as long as you use logic not emotion when buying.

n80 +1
" CDs might be dying, but I’m enjoying a bonanza while they’re doing it"

I buy both and literally have thousands of vinyl albums, like a lot of people here. It does seem to be a buyers market right now with cd's though.  

@kahlenz

Man, the hipsters are into pro audio. They’ll go direct from their phones to a pair of active studio monitors. The extra cool kids have a two channel audio interface or a small mixing board so they can plug in their turntables, CD players, playstations, guitars and microphones. They’ll play whatever media they can get their hands on and plug into their boards.

Also true, but we have more record shops in my town now than ever, i used to run a record shop in 1998-2000 (before digital streaming became popular), CD was mainstream back then.

People are buying more records now that in the late 90’s and these people are very young. At the same time old dudes also pretty active in the record shops here, but different record shops.

And while hipsters can use whatever format, the vinyl is the most interesting media for smart kids, this is "something real" for them, not like digital streaming.

BTW Records are not for audiophiles, records are for everyone. As i said i know boys and girls buyin records without turntables. They can listen to the same album digitally, but they want vinyl to put on the shelf, because it's real and cool. 

@n80

So in order to hear the superiority of vinyl I have to spend a LOT of money.

What are you talking about ?
Brand new Technics SL-1200GR cost about $1500 in the US, some amazing phono stages like JLTi cost under $800 including shipping, superb MM cartridges cost under $400. This is all you need to enjoy vinyl media and i’m pretty sure you will be blown away by the quality compared to CD and Digital, especially if you like not only new music. $2700 in total for decent analog gear is a lot of money for you compared to the gigital gear? I think you already have an amp and speakers. 

Not sure where you from, but there are many amazing records available for $5-20 each in mint- condition. 

Going the pro audio route to start is pretty smart . Very low distortion in those monitors, Amps built into the speakers , Nice cost savings , For the price of what some spend on wires here,they are full on in the game listening to great sound .

@maplegrovemusic

Very low distortion in those monitors, Amps built into the speakers , Nice cost savings

Which active monitors are you talking about ?
Genelec, Yamaha, Dynaudio, Adam ?

They are designed to make music, not to listen to the music, not to enjoy the music. These monitors does not reproduce bass and reguired an active sub.

If anyone can make a track sounds good on awful sounding classic Yamaha NS-10 near field passive studio monitors then it will sound good on any speakers. But it’s not easy. For regular listening sessions studio monitors is very bad idea.

Nice bookshelf studio monitors cost more than some audiophile speakers.

I think there is nothing wrong to buy some high efficiency speakers and low power amp even to start with something hi-fi, but not pro audio (if you’re not a music producer).

I’ve been to pro audio myself for years until i re-discovered what is hi-fi and why it’s much better. Some of my friends makes music, but i’ve never found nearfield active studio monitors they are using (like Genelec) to be pleasant for normal listening. Small monitors are just a pro tool for production.

"I bet everyone would love to have a turntable and vinyl collection of the favorite albums..."

That is a bit of a stretch. People do not even have favorite albums these days, much less are they interested in collecting them on vinyl in any number significant for anything except theoretical debate about marketing power. I know exactly zero people interested in having a collection of favorite albums on vinyl. I know one youngish lady (late 20s) who was very excited to buy a record player. She put it in her wish list on Amazon. A little $80 machine. She has no records and is not really planning to start buying them. She wants a record player because it looks cool and she wants to be cool. That is in her words, not mine.

What the heck, even I am not interested in having a collection of my favorite albums on vinyl. And I actually have it and have just (this morning) bought yet another copy of Exile On Main St. (half-speed master) on vinyl which is far from my favorite album anyway.

Those youngster LPs will find the way to thrift shops, once the urge to be cool gives way to reality of life and fitting the crib in the room becomes way more important than impressing some new companion.

@chakster  Well let's see . Dynaudio , ATC , Adam , PMC, Off the top of my head all make speakers for the home environment . Same drivers used in the studio speakers , but nicer cabinetry for the home models . So these aren't meant to be listened to for pleasure ? 

My experience is with Adam Audio , f7 , A7x , A8x and Classic column , and ATC . 
The first time I set up a pair of Adam a7x and shuffled through my library I was blown away by how every song that played was listenable . Gone was the desire to skip to tracks that sounded pleasing . Everything track was a new experience . Definitely do not agree about lack of bass but just the opposite experience . The lack of distortion is something to be said for , Turn up the volume to realistic sound levels and the sonic landscape does not change but only increase in volume . Holy grail stuff in my book . 

I like to inject some hard data into these debates. Check out this link to data about sales of various formats:

https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/

If you look at the two charts on this page, it’s clear that over the last 45 years digital has outsold vinyl by far, measured in units or $ amount sold, and streaming is the growing format, not vinyl. And digital didn’t even exist for 10 of those 45 years. It looks like cassettes have outsold vinyl.

I’m not putting vinyl down. If someone likes vinyl better than digital, that’s fine. Enjoy the searching, buying, cleaning, tweaking, flipping, large covers, smell and sound to your heart’s content and feel free to tell us how much you enjoy it. Same with digital. If you like to have access to millions of albums on your tablet or enjoy the sound of a well recorded and mastered CD, SACD or download, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. It’s all good.

Elizabeth, I have 7,000 78s and about 1,500 CDs from 78 sources.  They sound great performance wise and often with great mid-range and dynamics (especially the electricals).  For 78s, I use my old VPI 19-4 with an ultracraft 400C arm and a grado 78 cartridge, Marantz 7T pre-amp and VPI SDS speed controller.  Truly enjoyable experience but with added effort.  As to well transferred, remastered 78s on CD (also LPs), by guys like Marston, Hardwicke, Obert-Thorn, Andreas Meyer, etc., well there's often gold in the sound as well as performances worthy of them.  I've had a friend/Cal Tech engineer (departed) who were able to play early acoustic 78s with the correct stylus and e.q. on a huge horn system sound like 50's mono LPs.  Truly amazing and exciting.  

My own system has well mastered/pressing 50/60s LPs sound just more lively than well remastered CDs.  But, the CDs can stand on their own for enjoyment  (VPI TNT VI/SME IV/Benz Ruby 3... versus EAR Acute CD player).  I have 25,000+ LPs in my collection.  Each evening, I start with a CD and end 2 hours later listening to CDs, or start with an LP and end up listening to LPs at the end.  78s are a pain to play.  I'm thinking of buying a Simply Vinyl Sugarcube wo copy them to digital without the surface noise (especially with cheap shellac 78s).

iamhe I’ve read that the analog LP only captures 12 or 14 bits of information but in pure wave form. Digital captures sound at different bits and depth. Somehow, they both sound natural and high resolution on my system and some of my friends systems. They each have their own plusses and minuses .

Many of us can relate to Frank Sinatra Capitol recordings.  The LPs varied tremendously from one mastering to another, one pressing to another.  I have five copies of Only the Lonely, only 1 sounds mellow with Frank's voice warm and centered.  The others vary from bright to dull.  On CD, the early Capitol 16 bit basically copied the best of the original LP mastering, a little less resolving.  The 24 bit Norberg set has Frank swimming in reverb and dulled the transients using excessive noise suppression.  The  20 bit British set has Frank way out in front of the orchestra, warm and loud.  What a mess the latter two recent remasterings are.  

As to CDs being worthless, my Marston and Romophone CDs of extremely rare "78s" are not available or downloadable and strictly copyright enforced.  The original discs are rare, difficult to manipulate for playback as to e.q., speed as well as stylus type.  Historic recordings have hugely benefited from gifted mastering engineers and modern digitial equipment.  I consider an $18 CD with 24 tracks of $100 to $1000s discs properly remastered a real bargain not to be duplicated in the future.

P.S. I am sorry to inform everyone, but even CD pressings from the same plant can sound very different just like LPs.  I don't know why a glass mastered CD should sound different when stamped but they often do.  Let alone completely different materials (Japanese versus U.S. like vinyl formulation differences).

Fleschler, I agree with you that there is no standard or certification meeting a certain level of sound quality.  Other than labels such as Blue Note Records, record quality can be all over the place.  If HD Vinyl ever becomes a reality it may establish a standard much like digital audio.  

I have the Frank and Jobim album with the Girl from Ipanema which I think sounds awesome.  Tonight I will give it a listen for imagining and soundstage. 

Flescher
I’ve read that the analog LP only captures 12 or 14 bits of information but in pure wave form. Digital captures sound at different bits and depth. Somehow, they both sound natural and high resolution on my system and some of my friends systems. They each have their own plusses and minuses.

>>>>>Huh! How can analog capture only 12 or 14 bits of information? It’s not digital. Furthermore, most digital media has an analog source (tape).

Coincidentally, I was doing a record cleaning session yesterday and was playing some vinyl I hadn't heard in a while. I was struck by how "right" it sounds.

Following this thread, I am surprised how popular VPI is. It seems that all of you have (at least) one.

Whatever. It’s still not bits. Sampling rate doesn’t translate to bits, even if you’re correct about sampling and tape, which I’m not so sure about.

glupson, I have the Pro-Ject RCM and the Vinyl Styl system.  I typically use them in series.  I plan to pickup an ultrasonic RCM after the holidays.  Still doing some research.

Geoff,
This may help....

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/analogue-bit-rate-equivalent.137873/

Cheers,

@maplegrovemusic 

My experience is with Adam Audio , f7 , A7x , A8x and Classic column , and ATC .
The first time I set up a pair of Adam a7x and shuffled through my library I was blown away by how every song that played was listenable . Gone was the desire to skip to tracks that sounded pleasing . Everything track was a new experience . Definitely do not agree about lack of bass but just the opposite experience . The lack of distortion is something to be said for , Turn up the volume to realistic sound levels and the sonic landscape does not change but only increase in volume . Holy grail stuff in my book

Bookshelf does not reproduce bass well, there is a bass of course, but when you will add an active sub you will realize what you're missing with bookshelf speakers of small monitors. I know that because i sold my Dynaudio SUB-300 to a friend who is a producer, in addition to his Dynaudio Active monitors and Genelec Active monitors the sub is a must have for music makers as a part of studio monitoring if a person is limited to nearfield monitors only.

Surely Rey Audio Kinoshita does not require subs, but they are bigger than most of the living rooms or studios of the music makers :)  

Personally i don't like speakers/monitors with crossover, i love extremely sensitive full range floorstanding speakers like Zu Audio Druid (101db efficiency). Zu does not have a crossover, only high-pass filter for super tweeter.  Even 2 watts amp is enough to drive 101db full range drivers.  Anyway, this is just my home stereo. 

When i think about monitors with full range drivers only Tannoy comes to my mind. 

moonglum, thanks for the link. I’ll pass. 😃 If memory serves bits is related to resolution, not SRN. 

That link with the charts confirms precisely what I posted 12-03-2018 9:44 AM, but nobody agreed with me. That confirms another one of my suspicions; we have a lot of "geezers" on this forum who are guilty of wishful thinking, and they express their wishful thinking thoughts.

Lol....  what you talking about Willis :) 

orpheus10,

"That link with the charts confirms precisely what I posted 12-03-2018 9:44 AM, but nobody agreed with me."

For the record, I could not agree with you more. It is only that I have not found the way to get into your account and sign your post. I agree with it to that extent.

If there are armies of vinyl-obsessed people in their teens, twenties, maybe even thirties, on these forums, could you please identify yourselves.

We know you exist and vinyl is the only way and digital is horrible and younger crowd threw away their iPhones and Spotify and are fighting for a better place in line while waiting for a record store to open on the day of a new release. Due to popular demand, Wal-Mart in the USA may open vinyl department in all of the stores very soon. In fact, given the incredible resurgence of interest in vinyl, Wal-Mart is already too late to the party. And party is full of early twenty-somethings, and not of the crowd who knew nothing better than records in their youth. Nothing existed. Not nothing better, nothing at all. And then dinosauri got extinct...

Granted Geoff, but that was probably one loose cannon. ;)
I’m no expert but I think the thrust of the argument is that SNR & resolution are correlated and that one can be used to “estimate” the other?
Members here appear to have applied this yardstick as a rule-of-thumb.

I understand the argument. The argument is incorrect IMHO. No offense.

Granted, Geoff? Granted what? 

Analog is so very un-economical that it's only worth the price to people who had large record collections when CD's came on board. Although they initially went to CD's, all the fuss about LP's aroused their curiosity.

Since they already had the software, which was half the battle, they rationalized, why not go the rest of they way, even though they knew it was going to cost more than any so called "starter" crap, to hear the LP magic.

Now they're hoping to get young people into the game; why, I don't know, but the absurd economics of hearing the magic will stop that; unless you're talking the ubiquitous "starter analog".

You’re preaching to the wrong choir. I am a true believer in cassettes and their superiority to digital in almost every way, but especially dynamics, which is rather ironic since the big selling point for CDs from the very beginning was their hugely superior dynamic range. Cassettes are also much more realistic and richer in tone imho. But, hey, to each his own. You can cover it up with sampling and bits arguments until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄 Tape is a natural medium. It breathes.

Elizabeth, if you read between the lines most of us are already "geezers", including yours truly.

Presently, I'm discovering a record collection that I didn't even know I had; mostly in the form of records I had written off, but after a number of upgrades, they're sounding pretty good.

Enjoy the music.

@glupson

If there are armies of vinyl-obsessed people in their teens, twenties, maybe even thirties, on these forums, could you please identify yourselves.

"Teens, twenties, maybe even thirties" have no idea what is a "forum", they are on instagram and facebook. They are also on record fairs every month (buying, selling and trading records) in my town.

We know you exist and vinyl is the only way and digital is horrible and younger crowd threw away their iPhones and Spotify and are fighting for a better place in line while waiting for a record store to open on the day of a new release.

I’m surprised to see so many digital fans in analog section of audiogon forum, but good to know.

Younger crowd actually releasing their own music on vinyl, even if the music is stupid electronic crap, but it’s on vinyl released today. Some people are serious to start their own lable to release 300 LPs of each album or even less on 45s. Most of them does not have any pressing plants in their own country (if they are not in the USA, Germany, Italy, Czech...) Many young people definitely obsessed with vinyl, not all of them, but artistic people, djs, musicians, and even old audiophiles too.

Wal-Mart in the USA may open vinyl department in all of the stores very soon. In fact, given the incredible resurgence of interest in vinyl, Wal-Mart is already too late to the party. And party is full of early twenty-somethings, and not of the crowd who knew nothing better than records in their youth.

I’m 42 and i don’t care about digital music at all, as i said i know nothing better than vinyl and i don’t know any reason to stop buying records. Digital is just a free bonus to watch free movies, to chat, to take digital pictures, to discover music online just to buy it on vinyl later. In fact digital world helps me to find and buy whatever record i want quickly in one click from any part of the world (for this reason i love digital pretty much). If i can buy any vinyl record quickly and easily then why do i need it in digital?

People normally are more serious about something they have to pay for, records for example. They don’t need a bad record if it cost something. Digital cost nothing and people download or streaming tons of information, tons of crap for nothing. My theory is quality not quantity. I only buy record if i really like the music. My obsession is vintage vinyl (mainly 70's, originals)

"Digital cost nothing…"

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-EAGLES/dp/B0052VI2V6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543969607&a...

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-DVD-Audio-Surround-Sound/dp/B00005T5YK/ref=sr_1_1_twi_dvd_1?...

It is about your age. Slightly more expensive digital than vinyl.

I see a good many of the 20 something's in the record stores I buy from. They are usually in my way. It's about the only place they don't look at me like I'm an antique. Just saying... 

@chadsort -- to give you a direct answer to a question you posed earlier: yes, the Dynavector XX-2 mk.2 cartridge would be a much better choice for your tonearm than the Zu/Denon. the four main parts of the analog playback chain (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and phono stage) need to work together as one organism. your VPI tonearm just isn't "heavy" enough to make the Zu/Denon work optimally, and your phono stage isn't loading the cartridge properly -- so that's two strikes against you, right there.

that said, since this is your first foray into LP playback, i don't think you need to go all the way to the Dyna XX-2. try a Dyna 20X2L cartridge paired with the Dyna P75 phono stage, set to "phono enhancer" mode. this will sound good and give you a taste of what a decent vinyl rig can deliver.

yes, this will cost more dough, but you've come this far already, right?

I agree with your test results, just send me the analog rig and you can keep the digital rig......Thread can be closed now, problem solved.
:)

@glupson

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-EAGLES/dp/B0052VI2V6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543969607&a...

https://www.amazon.com/Hotel-California-DVD-Audio-Surround-Sound/dp/B00005T5YK/ref=sr_1_1_twi_dvd_1?...

It is about your age. Slightly more expensive digital than vinyl.

Sorry, but younger generation is smart enough to download music in digital format for free. 

Stuff like Eagles and other expired classics available for free anytime.

Unfortunately we can't physically clone the original vinyl for free.  

This is what i mean

Yes, people are selling CDs, i would be happy to sell some of mine with nice music, but nobody wants to buy them for any price, because this music is already uploaded in the internet. I can't remember any of my friend with a CD player, i swear. Last time i gave a nice CD to a friend, it was a big mistake, because they don't know how to use it, i have not seen this CD since that day when i visited him. They can only copy CD to hard drive if their computer have a CDR drive, but modern computers does not have a CDR drive. This is why i think CD is dead format for people of my age and younger. 

I asked my young 40 year old neighbor, if any of his friends who he went to college with, were into records or CD's; "Neither", he replied, "They're into streaming"

I have my doubts about all these young people into records; maybe they aren't college educated, and therein lies the difference. Records are flat out dumb if you're not a "geezer", who already owns a bazillion records, or rich and bored.

First of all, I got a bazillion records, many that can not be found anywhere, plus I know the complete score, including the insanely priced hardware that's required; I have to go for a TD. While young people who don't own a record or a TT might be better off leaving it that way.

orpheus10:  The larger questions are, why do they stream and what are they listening with equipment wise.   

I have had pretty good luck with online sellers.

We should only be interested in those who might become audiophiles, the rest have nothing to do with us. And for those few it is the same as for us - original pressings LPs for analog recordings and cds for digital recordings. Later probably computer instead of cds but not yet.
Buy less but of higher quality. Yes, buying records on line is difficult, but if VG+ is good enough it's not too bad. Average cost for me is about $25-$30 per record plus shipping but I mostly buy from Japan and Europe. 

I asked my young 40 year old neighbor, if any of his friends who he went to college with, were into records or CD's; "Neither", he replied, "They're into streaming"

I have my doubts about all these young people into records;

In contrast to that: I've been surprised by the number of my kid's friends - and the kid of my friends - who are aware of vinyl records and who play or buy them.  Just tonight I was out with a pal and both his sons, 14 and 17, played vinyl records.
These days when my kids bring over friends they aren't mystified when they notice my turntable.  Rather it's more "Oh yeah, we have records too, my parents have a turntable."   I never heard that until recently.
Also, while there has been a second hand record store around the corner from me for decades, in the past few years it's been joined by many other new record stores, so now I have 4 record stores within about a mile of my home.   All seem to be thriving.  Quite a change from the 90's and early 2000s!

The OP has legitimate high end analog, and because he didn't adjust it properly, or have the right cartridge, it sucks; give me a break with all these young people buying records. Why?
and why don't statistics, such as the one's Tomycy61 posted on 12-03-2018 9:42pm support this?

Pardon me, but I can think of nothing dumber than buying records for those so called "starter turntables" like bikes with training wheels. Records are expensive, and without an expensive high end analog rig, plus the knowledge to put it all together, they do not sound as good as CD's played on a cheap CD player; not to mention all the other headaches that go with records.

"Just the facts ma'am, nothing but the facts"