denon1, I envy you, that amp should be a beast with finesse. Yes, please tell us your impressions but after at least 100 more hours of burning in. I have no idea how well your cables will work with the Gryphon. How long do your cables have to be ? Interconnects, speaker and power cords. I am asking to figure out how expensive the replacement might be even if you have no intention of doing it right away. At this level you usually try to match very precisely, this doesn't mean that only top of the line would do, in fact, I don't think so.
Upgrading form Pass integrated amplifier to a better one
Hello,
Currently I have a PASS INT-250 integrated amplifier . The Pass INT-250 is a very good integrated (in my system it was overall better than Plinius Hiato, Gamut D150se, Mark Levinson 535, Vitus RI-100, Accuphase E-470 and some others) but I can't get rid of the feeling that I miss some explosiveness (drum kicks for example) and micro details.
I know that its not the speakers. The new Sonus faber tradition I have are much more open, dynamic and airy than previous Guarneri Evos, Elipasas SE and Amati Anniversarious I used to own. And before buying them I auditioned the Serafinos with Audio Research separates and it was the amazing combo. But I really prefer not to go the separates road ( ICs, power cords and space contribute to financial constrains also) and even so I like the combo of Pass and Serafinos overall but from time to time looking for some better integrated on the market.
Currently I presented with a good opportunity to buy latest Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated or latest just released Accuphase E-650. No possiblilty to demo them, so I am asking here on the forum if anybody can comment if Gryphon Diablo 300 or Accuphase E-650 will be better integrated than Pass INT250 overall and especially in terms of dynamics, micro details and harmonics.
Any advise and opinion would be very appreciated.
My system: Esoteric K-05x, Pass INT-250, Sonus Faber Serafinos, all cabling are the Shunyata Sigmas.
Room is 12" wide by 17" long. Listen mostly acoustic jazz and chamber classical on low to moderate levels.
Thank you.
174 responses Add your response
sorry it is Whitecameross https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each |
I demoed Mark Levinson 585 and Vitus RI-100. My pass int-250 is better than both of those to my ears. The Levinson was too polite anD Vitus too hi-fi ish sounding, not my thing. The Vitus SIA-025 is the one that checks all boxes, but lack of US service and low power (with lower efficiency speakers bass may not be his strong attribute) and price steered me away. Inna, agree with you on theimportance of cables.i happen to learn that cables are should be considered as another important component of the overall system. Currently all Shunyata sigma power cables and latest alpha speaker cables have been doing a very good job. The Shunyata alpha speaker cables bested my favorite Purist audio Neptune speaker cables that I liked a lot. |
denon1, I have Neptune interconnects and like them a lot too. But I am going to give a try to an almost unknown in the US brand - Tchernov Cable from Russia. Vladimir Lamm uses them now with his amps, and some Germans are completely crazy about them. I won't try their best, something in the middle. This should be interesting. One thing that Gryphon does is that it doesn't try to imitate anything, least of all the sound of tube amplifiers. You may agree or disagree with the Flemming's interpretation of how the sound should be, but his designs are original. |
I believe these amps could do much better with more efficient speakers. These SF are not what I personally consider efficient speakers. They need some power, and i have noticed on several speaker models that the Pass, which are excellent amps, struggle to give the dynamics - I know exactly your feeling about that aspect, as I am a big fan of dynamics. Now again for dynamics especially, these Accuphase wont do it any better than the Pass. There are many choices out there, but you are on something good here - if you have the opportunity for the Gryphon Diablo 300, I think you would have it all there and a great match for the SF - amazing stuff !!! Keep us posted |
Two integrated amps I have personally heard in depth a bit better then the very good Pass Labs ,are both from Denmark, The superb Virus audio ,they make 2 models. Perrota consultants I believe still is s delear for them. Gryphon another great product ,I do not think any distribution in the U.S Due to a horrible review ,that was totally untrue . As with many reviewers they assume the unit is fully run in. Which BTW I totally feel the MFG should cover this to prevent dumb Things like that from happening. Long story short it totally ruined the little bit of support It had and since then he has stayed mainly in the European market. Having owned a Hifi store and heard these integrated amps know they are better then most separates. Expensive Yes but built to premium standards throughout. The same can be said about Vitus.and power Doubles down to 2 ohms.Gryphon has a smaller model out now.also Accuphase makes a lower power 150wpc which is Excellent. |
@audioman58 Philip O’Hanlon from On Higher Note is the NEW USA distributor for Gryphon audio products. I know Philip and he is very consultive and helpful. I also found the links below for your review: https://onahighernote.com/gryphon/ https://onahighernote.com/shop/integrated-amps/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/ http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1116/Gryphon_Diablo_300_Integrated_Amplifier_Review... |
I apologize for the long delay regarding on the Boulder 865. I think it is a fantastic amplifier, and for the price, it is a giant killer. I was talked into the Boulder 865 by a dealer. I had actually wanted a Boulder 1010/1060 and the dealer insisted that 1) the 1000 series was being replaced and 2) That the money to invest in the next series would be better used on other components. I still think I want separates, but he might not have been wrong. Investing in top quality cables, balanced power, and an exceptional digital source have all contributed to the excellent music. Even when I hear a 1010/1060 combination, I think it is not that much better than what I have (given all the upgrades i made in balanced power-- the single most noticeable upgrade-- and signal/power cables). Not to mention many of the new integrated amplifiers are truly spectacular. The Boulder is a spectacular instrument to convey what is on the recording. The boulder 865 is plays only what it is fed, it does not cover it up, it does not add anything, it does not take away anything. It simply amplifies the signal. And it is dead quiet. For example on Laurence Hobgood’s "First Song" the piano notes not only sound real, but have the power and decay as if I went over to the Steinway and played the song. The base, arguably the star of the track, was perfect. The plucking had the metallic sound and body, down to the vibrations. The rest of the track is perfect. The spacing between the performers is exceptional. That means the soundstage is great. It is not as layered as say my Viva, but that is a different system with different set of speakers, cables, and speakers. Moving on to pop music, the 865 is equally good. On Razorlight’s Wire to Wire the melodic rock song comes alive with clarity, detail, and accuracy. The piano notes ring true, the voices come alive, with a sense of space and accuracy that very few other amplifiers can do. The drums sound great, the snare drum sounds eerily real. Classical music is just as strong, clear, accurate, and open. The buid quality is top notch. It is a Boulder amplifier. The remote is awesome, the casing is great. They saved costs, clearly, but leaving off the trademark heatsinks. You know what though? It doesn't matter. it looks like a Boulder and if it made it more affordable, then its worth it! I do not like many of the audiophile terms, to be fair, I really do not know what it all means. What I can tell you is that the amplifier is open, meaning the instruments, voices, and placement is as open as one can imagine. Is the 1100 or the 2100 series better? I am sure. But with the balanced power the 865 is extremely close to the 1060. So am I happy? Yes, I am very happy. Have I considered selling it and upgrading? Yes. I have thought about moving to the Gryphon 300, which you are talking about. I have not heard it and I worry that its not a step up but a step sideways. I also worry that it is a bit darker than the Boulder and I am not sure that will work my system. I have considered the Vitus sia-025 as well, but again I have not heard it in my system or with equipment like mine. I have considered moving up within the Boulder range and if I find the right opportunity, I might very well do that. I have a Viva Solista Mk III in my library and its great as well, different than the boulder, but conveys the signal in a very organic way. I am lucky that I get to enjoy the best of solid state and the best of tubes. I am not sure though that even my Viva would best my boulder in that system. Other great systems I have heard just did not wow me the way that my system continues to make me happy. The other thing to remember is that the boulder is great in my set up with the equipment I have, I have heard Boulder sound bad with other cables, and have heard great systems with other amplifier designers that sound like dreck in my system. For example the DartZeel just sounded plain bad (the CTH 8550) in my main system. It sounded as though it was underpowered. I have heard the same DartZeel in other systems and it sounded great... and the separates can also be excellent. The only other shout out I want to suggest is that the Core Power Technologies Equi-Core 1800 was transformational in my system. I rarely give product shout outs but it really quieted the whole system down and really made the 865 sound more similar to a 1060. Would the 1060 sound even better? Sure, but I do not have one in home to test and the 865 is dangerously close. Even my professional musician friends could barely tell the difference. In all, the Boulder 865 is fantastic. |
Hello, I got the Gryphon Diablo 300. It was delivered to me by freight on a pallet. After 5 hours of burning (it was totally brand new), this is my observation in compare to Pass INT-250. First obvious difference the low and mid bass on a different level - deeper tighter and more detailed. Second; the Gryphon's dynamic agility is best I heard at my house. The drum kicks, piano notes appears all of a sudden with such clarity, impact and focus - much closer to live performance than pass. The overall presentation is more neutral but still very musical and of cause micro details - on a new Bill Charlap disk I clearly hear him pushing pedals on his piano. I did not hear it with pass that clear. The only area for now were pass is may be better is soundstage of the pass is larger up front, but may be its just because the Gryphon is so new. At the same time the Gryphon's soundstage is deeper - again closer to what I hear attending to real live concerts. So to me in my system (even so Pass is terrific performer) Gryphon Diablo bring me another step closer to live performance with its low/mid bass,dynamic swings and micro details. And another very important aspect - no listening fatigue at all - outstanding for a brand new unit. My search for a perfect integrated is over. My big thank you to Mike from Suncoast audio for his outstanding service and making it it possible to happen. |
Great. Yeah, give it couple of hundred hours to fully burn in. When you recover from your expenses you might consider experimenting with cables. This is a very high performance level, and everything matters even more. Tube integrateds aside, there are only two that I would consider for myself if I could afford them - Diablo 300 and Ypsilon Phaethon hybrid. Your Diablo should work just fine even if you replace the speakers at some point. |
Inna, totally agree with your thinking, cables are critically important part of the system and the higher you are - the more significance they bring. For now I am done - exactly like you said - recovering from these
expenses. My all cabling including speaker cables (with the exception of ICs - here I have Jade gold reference XLRs that I intend keep for a long time) are Shunyata sigma and they are very good. So going forward I'm finally done with speakers, cables and amplification. The only thing I would like to improve is a frond end, meaning going with a great streamer and dac. But my esoteric k-05x is pretty god and I still like spinning cds and not to be depended on internet connection and streaming provider issues. Ideally I would love to upgrade to esoteric K-01x now but than divorce will become imminent :). |
Denon1, yes, I will always keep a cd player as well for exactly the reasons that you said but also for sound quality and some rare discs. I understand, you didn't buy Gryphon dac option, extra $6k is no fun, and I don't know how it competes with outboard dacs of similar cost including cable and power cord. No no, this would be a very uninteresting cause for a divorce, you are absolutely right. |
This is one of the more enjoyable threads I've read in years. DEnon1 there is currently an Aavik integrated that is being offered at a very reasonable price. TAS went Gaga over the unit if I recall. I have the gryphon, Aavik, T&A, and th e Vitus on my short list. I wish someone could do an ss integrated shoot-out and share their impressions. |
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Yeah. $6k for onboard DAC is a lot. It would be interesting to compare it to outboard DACs used with the Gryphon Diablo. I don't know much about digital, but I understand the Gryphon DAC can be upgraded in the future, on-line. $2200 for the phono stage on the other hand appears to be right on. I doubt you can do better with a separate phono, including cables and power cord, for this amount. Unless I wanted to go much higher or/and tube phono stage, I would definitely get it right away or a little later. |
Ok guys. My Gryphon Diablo 300 is ccurrently on 80 hours mark braking in and I feel that it needs another 70- 100 to fully open up. Differences with the Pass INT-250 so far: Gryphon is more revealing, not as smooth as Pass. But its tonality more in line with what I hear attending the live concerts; no fatigue. Gryphon is faster and more dynamic. Its ability to go from a total silence to the popping 3d sound is amazing. I think its his biggest strength. Gryphon has better defined lows and highs. The midrange is more neutral than Pass and some people who prefer stand out midrange may not like it. But again the Gryphon's midrange is more in line with real live. Gryphon is being more reveling does require more consideration for the cables matching, front end and speakers. Some poorly made recordings may not sound as pleasant with Gryphon as they do with Pass. So far I still remain with my initial opinion that Gryphon is a step closer to the live music than Pass INT-250 and more refined integrated overall. For the money, especially if you find the used one, the Pass INT-250 is a great integrated if you have a space for it. It does not get hot as the class A offers from Pass. But it is just big and heav. In my house its was better than many integrated listed above in this forum, with the exception of two: 1.Vitus SIA-025 that I listened at dealer's show room, but they had it connected to the same speakers I had by that time - Marten Django XL so I could get a good idea. 2, Gryphon Diablo 300. |
Yeah. You guessed right with the Gryphon. I knew it. It is definitely worth experimenting with cables and power cords. If I myself was doing it I would start and probably end with five brands - Gryphon, Purist Audio, Echole, Stage III and Tchernov Cable. All cables of the same brand at a time, though mixing could theoretically give unexpected results. |
@inna A DAC shoot-out would be interesting - internal vs external. It may be closer that one might think; the Gryphon with internal DAC needs no extra interconnect and may also greatly benefit from the synergy that has been engineered into the product. This integrated looks to be very good, double-downing from 8 ohms on down. And pricing wise is competitive at its' "retail" price. I hope to hear it in 2018; the distributor is within 30-40 miles of me and I hope to find a dealer nearby, hopefully with speakers I'm familiar with. |
@inna Well, I just looked up dealers in the US and according to the website, there are no dealers; just a distributor. Again, they are close to me so I may give them a call. It would be great to not only hear the 300, but to hear a full Gryphon system at the lower-end of the price range. I know that is funny, but you also know their gear is quite expensive. I want/hope to build one more system and so I am looking at the best integrateds, with a great speaker, and a DAC or possibly reference quality CD player as my last system. I've had my current system a little over ten years now and having heard so much really good gear in the last four or five years, I have the itch to build one more system. We shall see. |
