Upgrading form Pass integrated amplifier to a better one

For all Pass Labs INT-250 owners (likely all Pass integrateds and possibly pre-amps) there is even more to be had.
Replace the monolithic regulators on the INT_8_MB_R1 Pre-amp board with discrete regulators from SparkoS Labs., Inc.
The points denon1 identified are fully addressed, dynamics, micro-details and improved sound stage depth is also realised. This is a relatively inexpensive modification and the rewards are dramatic - from what is already an outstanding amp.
I’m listening with Magico S5 speakers.

@ryder I’d highly recommend you audition the INT-60. I’d expect the 30W of class A would benefit your Marten Duke 2’s more than the additional reserve of the INT-250.
Listen to both if you have the opportunity of course.

@ryder : your last sentences are very well said and observed wisely.

I also still do enjoy listening with my Pass Labs monos. Interesting to read about the former Gryphon owner who changed back to Pass :)

Never had a Gryphon myself but I think their Antileon Evo isn’t a bad amp...But I‘ll keep my Pass anyway. ;)

2 years ago I was still considering how to match my Focal Sopra 2. After several auditions i jumped with Pass INT-250 (with Cerious Graphen Matrix cables)
Exactly what i was looking for. Actually after 18 months of heavy listening,  I would even say that it is better than what I was expecting. I still rediscover my music. 
Not trying to convince anyone or advertise for anything. Everyone enjoys in a different way. But selfishly my very own pleasure .

Ryder......now your going to want to try the NEW Luxman Integrated thats coming out soon.  It looks like a Retro Integrated Pioneer Receiver....no meters...Just knobs/buttons with wood sides

Time really flies. I noticed i have actually posted here almost a year ago seeking advice from the OP. It just felt like yesterday.. Ohh well, I’m exaggerating. Anyways I’ve settled with the Luxman L-590AXII instead of Pass Labs INT-60 for my Marten Duke 2, and the current combination is a match in heaven.

I noticed the OP has moved from the Pass INT-250 to the Gryphon Diablo 300, touted as one of the best integrated amps money can buy. Interestingly the OP has abandoned the Gryphon after using it for about a year and moved to the Luxman L-509X before settling down with the Pass INT-250 again. This sort of thing is unexpected but I guess anything can happen in this hobby. It is interesting to note that the OP found the Gryphon to be poor at low volumes with reduced micro-detail, presumably when compared to the Pass Labs.

The outcome suggests that the grass is not always greener on the other side. If we have found something that works well in the system, it may be prudent to just stay put and enjoy the music instead of constantly looking for the Holy grail. Having said that, I’m still curious about the sound of the Pass Labs INT-60 or how it will compare to the INT-250. Well, it will never end isn’t it?

Sorry to pick up this slightly older thread but I am from Germany and I do disagree about T+A with Audiotroy...

T+A in Germany is a brand considered one step above average - not HighEnd! This isn’t to say they are bad but not on par with Gryphon, Pass Labs or for example Dan D’Agostino.

If you’re looking for a German HighEnd brand look for
Einstein Audio Components. 
Sincerely 

Denon. I need your advice. I am looking at the Pass Int-60 to match my Marten Duke 2 speakers. Does the Pass have a refined and warmish tube-like glow in the treble and midrange whilst retaining the finer detail and nuance in music? I need something that sounds smoother with a slight tube-like presentation especially in the midrange and treble but with good tonal accuracy. The current amps I have sound a little too bright and rough with the highly revealing Marten Duke 2 speakers as there is a slight grain in the treble especially with piano.

The Int-60 got me interested as I read that the first 30W is in Class A. In my mind Class A sounds smooth like good tubes.

I read good things about the Vitus SIA-025mk2 but the price is beyond my budget.

I've had INT250 for three+ years.  Satisfied, but starting to consider change, mostly just for the sake of change.  Diablo300, Moon 700i V2, new Boulder 866 would be contenders.  Eager to see more reviews of 866 and hopefully comparisons to the INT250 (200+ w/c Made in America AB integrateds) and have a listen at dealer.  Appreciate denon1's journey.  Can't help but wonder if I too would just wind back up with INT250 if I did make a change.

Excellent discussions. Enjoyed the journey by @denon1 
Very interesting
I own Focal sopra2 and currently hesitating between diablo300 and INT250
From first demo Diablo is fantastic but I wonder if it is not « too » detailed and transparent for the Focal. Possibly due to pure silver cables by gryphon used in the demo room.  Going to listen to INT 250 soon. Unfortunately none of the showrooms have Focal.  So hard to conclude what will sound best. Anybody using Focal with either Diablo 300 or INT250?

@denon1 - wow!  It seems as if you and I have been through a very similar process with respect to gear. I totally understand what you are saying and can relate 100%.   "Trust your ears" is the ONLY thing that matters!

br3098,  yes speakers are very important component, but I disagree that its all about speakers. With a lot of trials and errors for the last 15 years, I now understand that before signal gets to the speakers it has to go thru the whole chain of components called system - were everything is critically important to make the speakers sound to their best. 
If one does not have the 20 amp dedicated line it will affect the signal. Outlets, power conditioning, power cables, audio stands,  isolation devices and of cause room acoustics. After that front end, ICs, amplification, speakers cables and finally speakers and your listening position. Another important thing is the synergy between all components. Great cables like Nordost V2  will sound great with  speakers like Sonus Faber, but may be too much for speakers like Magico that is great with Shunyata or Audioquest cables. The same with amplifier and everything else.
But if integrated or pre/amplifier  combo does not have enough current to drive medium /lower efficient speakers - even if those speakers are great ones and cost like a good car, one will never hear proper drum kicks,  3d soundstage, bass  and other important things. If amplifier does have a lot of current but speaker cables unable to deliver it to the speakers - again you will never hear full potential of your amplifier and speakers.
I can go on. For the last 15 years, I spent well above $100k to have sound that I think gets me closer to jazz live music, but my whole system costs around $65k retail. Were did other $100k went - trials end errors and lack of understanding that everything is very important in the system. And another very important thing - no matter how good your dealers are, no matter how great reviews and users opinions on specific components  - one have to trust his own eras only. 

Sorry, chiming in late.  It's your speakers, not your amp.  Speakers are where the main difference in sound occurs, not at the amp.  I'm not saying that all amps sound the same, but the effects you specifically mention (explosiveness and drum kicks) can more effectively be managed by a change in speakers.  All the integrated amps you mentioned your amp as "overall better" than are top notch amps.

But maybe it's not the speakers.  Maybe it's your room.  Any speaker is limited by speaker placement and room interaction.  I would consider getting a good room analysis before spending any additional money on gear.  You can do it yourself, but IMO a good room wizard will work magic (sorry for the pun).

Good on you for your persistence in putting together a system that does all the right things.It's not always easy.Enjoy:)

denon1
Much Thanks! for the update. Good to read that you solved the Cabling issue.  Now, kick back and enjoy the Music!
Happy Listening!

Lak, yes, my personal opinion that cables should be considered as components. Cables synergy with gear is very important. 
I wish I would realized it much sooner in my journey. I sold/traded quite a few great amplifiers because of the poorly matched cables. Btw the pass int-250 sounds terrific at low volumes, probably the class A bias at lower volumes plays some part. I would strongly consider class A pass separates (pass 100.8 or even better 160.8) , but they generate a lot of heat.

denon1, thanks for the update. Very interesting...
And some people say that cabling doesn't make a difference, we know better.

“I don’t see any innovation in the boutique brands.”

Linear Tube Audio, MSB, Aqua, Lampizator, Schiit, Nagra, Innuos, Total Dac, Roon....I guess it depends on your definition of innovation or your definition of boutique brand.

"Don’t tow your bass boat with your Ferrari." 
This is precisely my point.  Pass has everything from high powered to low powered amps.  They provide the goods without trying to sell any snake oil.  I don't see any innovation in the boutique brands.  They are the ones, in fact, that are trying to tow a bass boat with a Ferrari.  

“It is very tough to beat Pass. People trying with all these boutique brands, but nothing has the “guts”!”

While I happen to be a fan of Pass Labs, it is often times the “boutique” brands that push the envelope and innovate. As a matter of fact, I remember when Pass Labs was considered a boutique brand. Lots of amps have “the guts” but there are plenty of products that don’t set the goal to drive Maggies to 120db. 

Don’t tow your bass boat with your Ferrari.

It is very tough to beat Pass. People trying with all these boutique brands, but nothing has the “guts”!

johnread57,
During these two years I sold Gryphon 300, bought Luxman 509x sold it and got new pass int250 again.
Why did I sell Gryphon 300 - in my system with my speakers (Sonus faber Amati Tradition) I noticed that Gryphon sounds not as good at the lower volumes (loosing some of the micro details its famous for) as driven with the higher volumes. Another reason I got into the hype of Luxman 509x and bought it for a great price. And another (important) reason for me - you can ship Gryphon only by freight and its a pain to make sure that the wooden box is secure. Personally I don’t want to deal with that.
Reason for selling Luxman 509x- hype did not leave to expectations.
Luxman 509x in my system sounded hifi and strained on the higher volumes levels no matter what I did - cables changes, trying different front end - with any iteration I heard hifi instead of music.
At this point I told myself - I will buy integrated or anything else only after auditioning in my system no matter how great the deal is or how many great reviews the product has.
So I got opportunity to try pass int 250 again and not commit to anything until I audition in my system. This time (different: speaker cables Audience front row instead of Shunyata Sigma, GIK acoustics, and Triode Wire labs Obsession power cables instead of Shunyata Sigma HC) I really like the sound of the pass int 250 in my system. Now It is dynamic, great harmonics, outstanding tight bass and highs that not fatigue and most important for me - the overall presentation is very musical.
Yes its may not be as fast and extended on tope as Gryphon but for the price and for my ears its very good. Read the review from Audidrom (the side I somewhat trust more than some other reviewers). Plus support from pass is outstanding.
So for now I stay with pass int 250. To my ears, with right cables and front end I doubt one can find better integrated within that price range.
When funds permit I want to try T+A 3100 integrated or check out separates like Merrill 116 or 114 or Luxman 900 combo.

I havent waded through all the posts, but I think you want a Krell.  Try the Vanguard (seriously, even though much cheaper) or the new K300i.

Denon1
Well it’s 2 years later, do you still like your Gryphon cf your PL INT250? Are you a happy camper based in that purchase today? Can you share the experience - listening notes- with us now?

Yeah. Also, Flemming Rasmussen likes large scale music, according to his own words, so this should be factored in. 
My guess - Gryphon would win in dynamics and bass, Ypsilon would win in tone depth tapestry and overall sophistication.
I would most likely choose Gryphon because of availability of the optional great phono board and the dark deep Scandinavian character.

Just read a review in positive feedback on the AudioNet Watt that left me drooling.  In my dream world I wish someone would do a shoot-out between the Absolaire, Ypsilon, Gryphon, T&A, and AudioNet.  

I own the Diablo 300 and heard the Ypsilon Phaeton a while back so I can’t really say it was a direct comparison.  I think at this level, it becomes more of a personal preference, synergy between components and cabling. The Diablo of course has much more power on hand so it probably tips the scales if difficult to drive speakers enter the equation.  

Looks like a rainy rainy weekend here in NH so I guess I will be reacquainting myself with the Diablo 300!

Finally, Gryphon is getting wider recognition, though in some circles especially in Europe and Asia it has been very well known.
Anyone compared more or less directly Diablo 300 and Ypsilon Phaethon ?

Hay,i have the Esoteric f-05 amplifier, Luxman sacd 06u and  the ilumnia magister speakers. ( ilumnia.be). So Natural, detailfull ,pure sound. I never heared music,all instrument, so “correct”.You can listen for hours.  You enjoy and feel the music. Beautiful high,mid and low. Speakers review: Ear magazine,hifi.nl,...

I'm with John K. Get new  speakers instead like Wilson Sasha. I heard 30k recent model of SF with Mac monos. Yeah the sound was chocolatety  & smooth but  lack the liveliness & air. 

Thans dguitarnut, 

The Diablo 300 just arrived today.  With only two hours on the clock, it sounds amazing. 

Congrats, I love mine.

I finally gave in to temptation. My Gryphon Diablo 300 should be here in a week. 

@denon1

If you are still looking at upgrading your sources i would highly recommend Totaldac as some of the best out there.I have auditioned the Esoteric N-01 and the Totaldac Seven same price point and my choice went to the Totaldac Seven no hesitation.Totaldac much more analogue sounding and natural.You should also check out Melco against the Aurender N10.All the best.
http://www.totaldac.com/D1-seven-en.htm

denon1

what gear, including cabling, is in your system?
Happy Listening!

I have a set of SF Serafino powered by the Rowland C500 Integrated.  I've rolled a few amps passed these (ARC, Moon, Primare, TACT, Naim) and found they are a bit fussy.  I found no combination unworkable but was surprised at the differences.  In my setting the C500 is perfect, keeping the high end smooth and the bass full but tight.  I could have lived with the Primare I30 as well, surprising good balance and detail from a smallish package. 

What about Esoteric F-05? Is it not worthy of a mention?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Chord; always muscular and bold sounding https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product-type/integrated-amplifiers/  

Lots of the expensive brands in the thread have no balls :P

Crickets..........

Rethink your source. 

Great. I bet, soon enough one would have to wait for at least six months to get one. Probably the similar would happen to Ypsilon Phaethon. 

Guys, my gryphon diablo 300 has about 200 hours on it and I think it fully burned in now. The overall sound is so refined but at the same time rich and textured, far from thin , cold or analytical, but at the same time I can’t say it’s warm or thick  sounding, as I said before, it’s closer to live sound more than any integrated I had and heard.

i will also put the end to some concerns about heat. Yesterday I used it non stop for about 7 hours and it became just moderatly warm to touch. The pass int-250 has been much warmer in my system.

greginnth, thanks. Looks like I follow your steps, next on the horizon is aurender n10. Also  bought stillpoints ultra ss to use on k-01x that should come in a week. 

Happy New 2018 to all. 

@denon1 - good move on the Esoteric upgrade going from K-05X to K01X.  I did exactly the same thing earlier this year.  A few months ago, I also purchased an Aurender N10.    You will be handsomely rewarded!

Congrats!

I'm not going to read through this entire thread but I hope you're still considering the Accuphase E-650. You can't compare it to the 470 so erase that experience from your mind. The Gryphon is good but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the difference between that and the Accuphase. Id put my own money down that you like the Accuphase better. 

Some may say heat is not a source of concern for hi end audio . I think it is big time. My previous audio research ss d100 was hot like an iron. Freaks me out

I also interested in the gryphon diablo 300 but worry about the heat. Is it very hot after about 1hr use?
Hot means unable to place yr hand on it for 30sec

@denon1 not the same league as where you wound up but wondering if you’ve heard the Ayre AX5 twenty and how it might compare to the Pass?