I would go with the best you can afford and that would be the 12. Even though it will only go 1hz lower and has the same size amp it has a larger driver and box which means it will have more output. In other words the amp will have to work less hard to produce the same output. |
I have the DD12 in a room about 18 x 24 with connecting rooms and it is more than enough. I have considered selling it buying 2 DD10s but that is a future plan.
The DD12 is more than enough for now. I replaced a Paradigm Servo 15 and what an improvement. |
Hi Kck,
I have had a DD-10 setup for music only in my 12x12 room.
I love it and have been very impressed with its performance.
A friend of mine recently got a DD-12. Its a wonderful sub
and its noticably stronger in the bass region than the
DD-10 as you would expect. My concern was that in a
smaller room the DD-12 would be too much. We were playing
the DD-10 and DD-12 at the same volume levels and the
DD-12 was making dishes rattle in the sink. The DD-10
in my opinion was working the room a bit better than its
big brother. Less was more in this case. If you room is
large I would go with the DD-12 and not look back. If your
room is on the smaller side the DD-10 might be a better fit.
For what its worth I have the Cherry finish. I like it but
I have to say that the black gloss finish on the DD-12
is fantastic. If I had to do over again it would be tough
decision. Good luck.
Cmach |
Thanks Theo, Rwwear. Theo, if I read between your lines too much it might look like even a DD10 might work for your room. It does not seem as if you tried it or even would be inclined to. What do you think you might gain from two DD10s? As I understand it the two 10s and the one 12 have roughly equal surface. I do understand about the stereo subs though. |
Cmach, good info and thanks. I guess I was posting at the same time you were and did not see your post before. I am leaning more to the 12 now. More input is welcome of course!
Anyone, does the black finish wear well? Is it susceptible to fine scratches, etc? Some of those things are, even when handled carefully. |
From what I have seen on my friends DD-12 the finish
seems pretty durable. Of course if your concerned about
finger prints and other blemishes the Cherry would be
the better choice.
Cmach
|
Kck, Actually I may have mis-lead you in first response. I would consider 2 10s in lieu of the 12. The reason is I think that 2 subs would sound better. I have heard in some demo's at different dealers using 2 subs. And I feel that there is a better distribution and representation of the music. I have come to the conclusion that 2 subs interact with each other and the room and somehow tighten up the bass. With the Velodyne setup capabilities in the DD series, you can flatten the curve even more that with one.
If you haven't tried the DD yet and had a chance to play with the setup menu in your room, you should, cuz the demo is what made me order one. And also you mention stereo subs. Actually I would daisy chain them in mono. As far as not trying or buying. No haven't tried it my home yet, only heard them in the dealers showroom. And buying them well that is a good 3000-3500 dollars away. And you also mentioned the capability of the 10 working in my room. I don't know, I never tried it. I know the 15 would be over kill. But I can't give you an honest answer there Kck. I really don't think it would , in my opinion anyway. Really depends on your room you may get by with it. But I'd rather have too much than too little. |
Two 10s should be better than one 12. But when only going for one, I would go with the 12. You can always turn down the bass or Eq it to your room. Besides you may also add another 12 at some point or move to a larger room. |
Thanks everyone. I think I am almost ready to pull the trigger on the DD12. I do have one question though... I ran a frequency sweep of my speakers with the REL off. While I did not record the results exactly, the things that stood out were:
1) Bump of 4-6 db between 80-95 hz
2) Small dip in the mid-to high 100s... maybe 170 hz? Do not remember and I cannot confirm right now.
3) Rapid rolloff from 55 hz down, to about 6 db down at 40, pretty much nothing there after 37 hz.
Also, I am running an integrated with a subwoofer out feature, which is placed AFTER the volume control (so the SW follows the amps volume). With the REL, I have been using the high-level (Neutrik) connections out of the amp's speaker posts so I have not had to worry about any of this.
Given the points above, is the DD still the way to go to correct all the bumps and dips, and will it do all it is made to do using the connections I have now? As you can tell, I am a bit illiterate when it comes to advanced SW connections, not having had to do so for a while. I am not a technophobe, and am sure I could learn how to set it up, so that is not an issue. But I just want to be sure, before laying out cash, that I can realize the full potential of this impressively-spec'd machine.
BTW, I will be using the sub in a strictly music-only, 2-channel system... does that change any of the answers above or any to come? Sorry, should have stated that earlier. I do like the individual settings feature, so I can use a different one for rock, classical, etc. |
Hi, just giving this a little bump... would love to get some answers to my latest set of questions above. Thanks much. |
I will add that the DD-12 should be fine. The onboard digital EQ should equalize most of the bumps and dips. I've got my room nearly flat all the way to 22hz. |
Kck - I am a velodyne DD15 owner. Buy the DD12. It is exactly what you need. The DD15 enabled me to put a band aid over my room's major problems and enabled me to listen to music without being constantly distracted by boomy bass. |
There is a very good article on the DD-12 in the Dec 2004 issue of Stereophile Ultimate AV. There has been a software update since the review was printed. |
Thanks again, guys... getting close now... I have a specific question. My mains go down to 40 hz... is this overkill for such speakers? I am also confused by the 80 hz crossover point as mentioned in reviews. Does this mean that if my mains have a dip in the 90-110 range, I cannot use the DD to fill in that dip? I see the spec of 200 hz but am having a hard time reconciling this with the previous fact.
I should note that I am quite happy with my Strata II in terms of depth. But because of my wood subfloor, I think I am getting some reverb that might not exist with a forward-firing sub such as the DD, plus I would like to correct for the room anomalies *above* the 80 hz point.
Sorry for all the questions. You all have been great with providing info. I am planning to call up my fave dealer tomorrow and get this wrapped up but would like some reassurance as to the above. |
I imagine if you cross the sub over high enough you could compensate for a dip in the main speakers. Having parametric EQ can make a big difference in sound quality. |
80 Hz is a good point because it's around there that we start losing localisation making the blending with the main spkrs easier. Also the high frequency sound fm a 12' subwoof driver is not linear (that driver wasn't made to tackle midbass).
As to the dip, don't worry -- try it: crossing over at, say, 80Hz means that you ATTENUATE the sound 80Hz (+upwards) from the subwoof so there is overlap with yr main spkrs. If the blend is good, keep it.
Finally, the 12' if you want to afford it is a better bet for low frequency reproduction -- its displacement volume is better than the 10'.
Generally, Velodyne makes nice user-friendly subwoofs. |
Hard to swallow but I am still on the fence. I spoke with someone at Velodyne and he said something along the lines of "10 and 12 are toys". I believe this has been mentioned before on AA or here so no secret if I say that. How much if this is marketing boost for the 15 and 18 and how much is truth? I cannot stretch to the big boys but do not want to get a 'toy' for $3K.
Also a question regarding vented subs like my REL. From an ad for a closed sub: "Vented systems are usually unsuitable for music because of port noise, low system Q (that causes bass overhang), and phase issues at resonance frequency."
True? In general, does a closed sub make more sense for a music-only system? As you can see I am very much still climbing that learning curve of subwooferland. |
Yeah I have heard that as well. Its nonsense. I really
don't understand why Velodyne says stuff like that.
It undermines what are IMO great products. If your leaning
toward a DD-10 or 12 don't hesitate. They are excellent
subwoofers despite what Velodyne might say. Remember room
size matters.
|
Its nonsense It isn't. As usual, it's matter of design & engineering -- but in a mediocre ported design you can have inconsistencies in the low f reproduction & noise... which doesn't mean that people selling ported subwoofs, all, necessarily under-design their products! |
Although belated, I had the occassion to speak with 'Kurt' at Velodyne support, (Az). About my old 10" Velo, and some connection alternatives, yesterday. Also we spoke about room size and appropriate sub applications for it.
I thought along the lines of 'two' subs. two 12's. Kurt said one 15 is better. Huh? One 15 is better than 2 x 12? yes was the reply. I still don't understand exactly, but he's been doing this sort of thing for a long, long, time... and the Velo support guy.... so perhaps he knows better. he added most very low end tones were mixed monaurally and not in stereo anyhow, and given the expense of an additional sub, especially in the SPL or DD range...well, I think I have my answer.
Also on a more 'setup' based issue... in using two vs. one, (SPL-R or DD), set up one and then the other... not at the same time... and as said above, you could simply daisy chain them together... One other isolation note and it comes from being his opinion solely, Spiking the sub isn't necessary, nor is isolating it... just set it onto the carpet, or if on a wooden floor, a good thick piece of carpeting is good enough. Thought to pass that along as it seemed most appropriate. |
Good to know. I just ordered a 15. |
