Dwinestein, the ONLY problem I see is you cannot accept the fact some members prefer PS Audio to Weiss in their systems and have to insult them suggesting PS Audio is only use in beginner systems.
Everything is relative so I guess it's possible their systems, including mine, are beginners compare to yours.
I'm using a PS Audio NOT because I have to but want to. May I ask, what's your system? I'm just curious why PS Audio is such a poor match in your system. |
It's as valid an opinion/review as yours.. If you don't recognize that, than consider that your ego is completely out of control. |
You call this a reviewer or even a review? LOL |
ADDENDUM...........Correction to my previous post:
Sorry to hog this thread, but I only realized after I posted my previous thread, that the reviewer was comparing the original PWD (not the current MKII version) to the Weiss 202 - and the reviewer preferred the PWD... |
go here to read one of many reviews posted in cyberland proclaiming the PWDII superior to the Weiss202. No doubt, the Weiss is a great sounding DAC - I've heard it many times. Here's the thing; (if) the Weiss DAC 202 represents high-end - if that's the benchmark - then the PWD II is without argument a high end DAC. Neither can compete equally with the true state of the art (e.g.: dCS)... Die thread die.......... |
Dweinstein, one thing I've learned concerning "hi end" is there are a lot of differing views and opinions. Your pursuit of "perfect sound" can become a full circle, like a dog chasing it's tail. I agree with you in that we all want to improve our systems but when "improve" comes at the expense of reasonable reason enough IS enough.
For a person of means to write a check for whatever it is he wants is one thing, I have no problem with it, but when one makes major sacrifices at not only the expense of himself but his loved ones in the pursuit of "perfect sound" it seems to me maybe too obsessive? Really, after all, isn't this about musical enjoyment over some unattainable ideal? I'd only add that based on your comments on this thread, you'll NEVER find what you are looking for, it just doesn't exist. What the hobby SHOULD be about is the means to enjoy the simple pleasure of listening to music. There is a reasonable point where that truly exists, sometimes simple is not only good but better. Unfortunately, the hi-end media propogates the myth that the next best greatest thing is right around the corner which is in THEIR interest as well as the manufacturers' of much of the high price hokum out there. Yes, I've heard enough to consider that a reasonable statement. Hey, you're happy with your Weiss, good for you! Don't kid yourself into thinking that it is some kind of "budget" product though. Again, only if you can simply write the check in which case it just doesn't matter only to the ones that think like you and can't. |
That more money into a system equals better sound |
What belief is that Zavato? For many people audio is a hobby and so the pursuit of perfect sound doesn't stop when you have an enjoyable system. For you it did, which is fine. Many people buy a Bose system and leave it at that and enjoy music on it immensely. But I don't think these forums are for people like that. I think this forum is more for people like me, hobbyists in pursuit of perfect sound. |
" It would seem to me that components should be changed out based upon some sort of dissatisfaction with their sound quality."
Which is why I have a turntable, phono Pre amp and speakers eachnoverva decade old. I simply like them, like them a lot.
Funny, I don't have that rash, (or was it an itch), the op spoke of to change for the sake of change.
I guess I'm just an ignorant fool who actually enjoys his system, and based on the OP's criteria, since my cd player costs 1/4 what his Weiss dac costs, I guess I'm just starting out and decidedly at the very lowest end of budget stuff.
Incidentally, my first serious audio purchase was in 1977. And while I was working today I listened to my Tivoli radio, which I think is excellent.
I suppose is what annoys so many of the responders to this post is the holier than thou attitude this all started with. To the OP, you really are wrong in so many of your core audio beliefs, but I hope you enjoy your music more than you enjoy your system.
I hope this thread dies a quiet death. |
Levy, I don't have plenty of money. I've worked very hard to put together the system that I have and made a lot of sacrifices along the way.
And wainwright, I think you are mistaken. Being dissatisfied with a component is not the only reason to pursue upgrades. Sometimes you might have a killer system but wonder how much better it might get. So this is like going from Ferrari (which you might be already very satisfied with) to Bugatti and spending 10 times as much to get just a 10% improvement. |
This statement by you is very telling: " But then I got that typical audiophile itch and given that this DAC was the lowest priced component in my system, I thought that it was time for me to focus on a new DAC."
Soooo, you based your satisfaction with your current DAC on its price relative to the rest of your system? Rather silly, donchathink? It would seem to me that components should be changed out based upon some sort of dissatisfaction with their sound quality.
After all, would you be looking to replace some killer YG Acoustics or Audio Notes or *whatever* simply because they were the cheapest pieces in your system? That makes absolutely no sense to me...
-RW- |
Thanks, Levy03. Has taken years to put together, with a lot of trial & error, and just when you think you have it right . . . . If you can, try a pair of High Fidelity cables. I was skeptical, but they are the real deal.
Neal |
"But all things being equal, it goes without saying that if we replace all the parts inside the Weiss with more premium parts then the sound would be even better."
Of course it goes without saying. Few people are foolish enough to make a statement like that. |
Dweinstein: "I am simply making the point that the PS Audio is objectively like a Kia and Weiss is like a Lamborghini, although some people might got for EMM Labs (Ferrari) - an equally good choice determined by taste and system synergy"
i'm simply telling you..... you're foolish, narcissistic and arrogant. almost every reply has pointed this out in one way or another. this should have given you some pause before making yet another extremely ignorant statement. the fact that you haven't paused (kia vs lambo?? really? LOL!)....more or less proves you're foolish, narcissistic and arrogant. you really know so little yet pretend to know so much. puzzling....you're a real enigma. good thing you have plenty of money.....because u have little else to offer the world.
keep chiseling into stone the "advise and information" obtained from the people selling you all that expensive gear. rest assured they love ya for it $$$$$$ =) |
Mcondom, as I've said taste and system synergy is secondary. You see some people might choose a Ferrari over a Lamborghini and vice-versa but both brands are on equal footing and objectively deliver the same level of quality and performance. So in this case, when choosing at this level it will ultimately be your taste that will determine if you will chose the Ferrari or not.
However, you will certainly not choose a Kia over a Lamborghini if you are looking for a high performance car. You will know objectively that the Kia is not even in the same league.
It's the same with Pass and VAC, they are both state of the art products and of course at this level it will be your taste and system synergy that will ultimately dictate which one you choose.
I am simply making the point that the PS Audio is objectively like a Kia and Weiss is like a Lamborghini, although some people might got for EMM Labs (Ferrari) - an equally good choice determined by taste and system synergy. |
|
I agree very much with Mcondon, he explained things much better than I did in my previous post. |
Dweinstein, I have heard the VAC Statement 450 (driving some large Raidho floorstanders) and thought it sounded lousy, as did a lot of other people who heard the system. (It was the Sound By Singer room at the New York Audio Show.) And I have owned a VAC Phi 200 and thought it sounded good, but in the end was overrated/overpriced in my book. I like Pass Labs better. That does not mean that Pass Labs is objectively better than VAC. It means I like how Pass Labs sounds better than how VAC sounds in my system.
System matching is a make or break proposition -- you can throw together some very expensive components and they will not sound good together -- for example, if their output/input impedances are mismatched. With digital, the transport itself has a big effect on how a DAC sounds. The Perfect Wave DAC, for example, is not particularly impressive from the USB or S/PDIF inputs, and sounds much better when matched with the Perfect Wave Transport connected via HDMI/I2S.
I don't think anyone is going to contest your red herring statement that there must be objective differences in the sound quality and measured performance of various components. That is why John Atkinson spends so much time measuring performance objectively. What you are refusing to admit is that some components -- even very high-end ones -- sometimes do not sound good together in a system, and that sometimes, synergies between components make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. When you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of synergies in your system and declare that the Weiss is objectively superior to other DACs, in contradiction to others who have had the opposite experience, you sound like a religious zealot. If you love the Weiss DAC, great, we get it, but stop using reductionist arguments to dismiss everyone else here. |
Soix, if what you were saying were true then I could just buy a $200 boombox and be done with it. It could easily be as good as my $100k+ system, I just need to change my opinion.
What about video? Would you say that 1080p resolution is not better than 480p, it's just a matter of opinion? Plenty of people would choose the lower resolution format over 1080p, inspite of the fact that the image is much sharper, crisper, and more vivid on the HDTV screen? |
"there are good sounding components and bad sounding components, system matching and taste come in secondary to that."
Not sure you can draw polar opposites and absolutes like this in audio -- there are lots of gray areas. System matching and personal taste always have a lot to do with everything in my experience. Someone's "good sounding" can be someone elses "bad sounding" and neither of them are necessarily wrong depending on personal experience, tastes, and their system and room. If that were not the case then you should be able to build a great system for everyone on Audiogon based on what you think are "good sounding" components. Pretty sure that's not the case. |
What all of you are saying is that there are no bad or good components in audio, it's all just about system matching and opinion. Well, all of you are wrong.
A good, highly regarded component, while it may not be everyone's cup of tea, an overwhelming number of people will find it to sound good, simply because that sound would be closer to what music sounds like live.
How many people who have heard the Boulder phono preamp thought that it just wasn't that great after hearing it? How many people heard a VAC Statement 450 amplifier and just walked away thinking it sounded terrible? Or how about the Rockport Reference turntable?
Of course higher price doesn't automatically mean something will be good, but that is simply due to amateurs building components and then slapping a high price tag on it.
Nglazer, I guarantee you that if you replace the PS Audio DAC with the Weiss your system will take on a new level of realism. Your system is good but the PWD is a major limiting factor. You probably got the PS Audio because it is conveniently available from mail order retailers and didn't take the time to audition a selection of DACs. I absolutely guarantee this.
My main point in this thread which has gone way off topic is that there are good sounding components and bad sounding components, system matching and taste come in secondary to that. You cannot take a Bose Wave Radio and convince someone that it has the sound of a $50,000 MBL system. Although according to all of you this can somehow be done. I'd like to see that. |
Neal: you're clearly a beginner who is working on a "budget system" =)
seriously nice rig bro! |
Dweinstein,
How about my system, which you may or may not find impressive:
Krell FPB 300 cx amp
Wyetech Opal preamp with Solen Teflon capacitors, Hi-Fi Supreme Gold Fuse, NOS 6sn7 tubes, Herbie's tube dampers
Bryston BDP-1 Digital Transport connected to PS Audio PWD MkII with Stealth Sextet digicable (AES/EBU)
CEC TL-1X Transport connected to PWD MkII with Kharma Grand Ref SPDIF digicable
Von Schweikert VR5 HSE speakers
Interconnects: Stealth Indra, Nordost Valhalla, High Fidelity Cables Enhanced
Spkr Cables: Nordost Valhalla shotgun biwire
Audience AR 12 Power Conditioner
LessLoss Sig, Valhalla, Elrod PC's
Various anti-resonance, anti-vibe accessories
Of course, this is only a budget system, but one does what one can . . . .
Best regards,
Neal |
Not on the topic, but Lustformusic, your Agon user name is fantastic and perfect for many of us! |
Not on the topic, but Lustformusic, your Agon user name is fantastic! |
Years ago a speaker builder call Duntech built his then flagship $23,000 Soverign Loudspeaker, it used a $45 VIFA tweeter.
When Mr Dunlavy was asked about this tweeter he responded, I know what you mean but it was the only tweeter I could find that worked in this system, One day I'll get around to designing it out.
To my knowledge he never did.
I auditioned the Weiss 202 but purchased the ARC Dac8.
What I think of the Weiss is probably irrelivant , understanding why is more important I feel. |
$42,000 speakers? Yup, different universe. I'm outta here |
"I've really only seen the PS Audio in budget systems by people who are just starting out in audio"
If I recall, the ps Audi dac that is being thrashed about costs $4,000. I really don't think that anyoneis assembling a "budget system" with a $4,000 dac.
Fwiw, thinking a $4000 dac as belonging in a starter budget system is a fascinating insight into the op. to me a starter system can be $1,000 - $1,500 including cables.
No wonder audio as a hobby is far past it's prime. |
Dweinstein: thanks for confirming "you'll never get it". if your last post reflects what you got out of my most recent reply....i now understand WHY "you'll never get it". did u even read my reply??....or any of the replies in this thread?? narrow mindedness and refusal to face/address the truth makes you a hopeless cause imo. |
Dweinstein,
You are making a universal or general statement regarding the PWDII as if because they didn’t sound good to “you” in “your system”, that it would sound like that in every other system. Please note that in every system, synergy among components is a key. The Weiss Dac202 that you are raving about can sound bad in another system. If common sense would prevail here, you would know that one man’s trash is another person’s treasure, and another person’s treasure is someone’s trash. I also think you think anything expensive equals better and the summation of quality parts equals better sound. It is not always true as I have heard less priced components outclass some more expensive ones, and summing quality parts in a box doesn’t automatically guarantee better sound, it is the execution that matters most. I am sure you are aware that some people love the PWDII, so if you had subjected your views to just “your system” and added a statement that even though you did not like the sound of the PWDII in your system, it would probably sound better in another system because there are others who love its sound, you will not be attacked the way you are being attacked now. You should also note that we all have different listening ears, and someone might probably like the sound of the PWDII in “your system” more than the Weiss irrespective of what you and your friends heard. |
"But all things being equal, it goes without saying that if we replace all the parts inside the Weiss with more premium parts then the sound would be even better."
Actually, I think there is no evidence, one way or another, about that at all. Premium parts are nice, but if the parts don't all work well together, premium parts is just wasted money. Many times over the years I have read interviews with designers who pointed out that they listen to all the parts and that the most expensive parts are not necessarily the parts they thought ultimately sounded best.
If money were the issue, I would buy a $400 MyDAC, and sustitute each and every part inside for a premium version, including a premium chassis and case, and then sell it for $7,500.
You do realize the single most expensive part of that $30,000 DAC is no doubt the chassis
However, no one hear is stopping you from spending $30,000. I just seems you are looking for validation for that decision. |
There is a point where better sound is factual. Otherwise, I could write posts here all day about the musicality of my alarm clock and if people disagree that it is the best sound in the world then just say its a matter of opinion - it's not.
Levy, why don't I take out the nice polypropylene capacitors in your speakers and replace them with cheap electrolytics? The resulting sound is not better or worse, it's just different according to you. In fact, why spend money on any premium materials if the result is just opinion driven?
Zavato, as far as my surprise regarding the Weiss outperforming or being at least on par with the $30k DAC is because the $30k DAC does have ultra premium parts, I suppose the reason why the Weiss is so good for the money is because Daniel Weiss is just a brilliant engineer and is able to extract more from lower cost parts. But all things being equal, it goes without saying that if we replace all the parts inside the Weiss with more premium parts then the sound would be even better. |
If I had something that offered "world class device that far surpasses its cost in performance" I'd be giddy and happy, not confounded why I couldn't spend more $ and be even happier |
"I was surprised to learn that Weiss 202 can compete even with $30,000+ DACs."
Why? |
Krell vs Yamaha?..a rather extreme example but i'll bite with an equally extreme rebuttal.
so if the Krell was hooked up to a pair of $20 speakers and the Yamaha was painstakingly matched up with some very high quality speakers......would it still be "a fact" that the Krell will always sound better??.
Like i said before mr weinstein.....you just don't get it and likely never will. the Weiss is a fine DAC, as are the others you demo'd (the Berkeley is fantastic imo). i have no reason to doubt that in your system, the Weiss sounded fabulous and the pwd2 did not. i take issue with your lack of understanding that certain piece's can sound good/great in certain set-ups while not sounding so good in others. re-read Al's post from above and you'll see we are both saying the same thing (although Al is MUCH smarter and nicer about it). variables matter!! and matching up components in a system correctly is likely one of the only valid FACTS we have in this hobby (kinda like room treatments/correction). it's not all about the price or performance of a single link in the chain....rather it's about how all the components interact and work together.
regarding the "personal attacks"....yes....guilty as charged because i have problems with YOU as a person (not your gear selection or musical tastes). comparing a nice DAC like the PWD2 to some pos cd player from the 90's is blatantly disrespectful and an insult to all of us who have gotten great sound out of it (along with several other silly/over the top comments you've made). if you think you can insult/disrespect people who like something you don't and not get push-back....you're in for a *rude awakening* from people like me. by all means...go ahead and state your valid opinion. the pwd2 sounded flat, not musical, ect....(in your system) are all fair/legitimate observations you might have had. just don't say things that insult/disrespect others and cry "poor me" when we get in your face about it. |
What's thepoint of this thread? The OP wants to spend more $ but is conflicted because the Weiss, which runs nearly 8 large, is the cheapest bit in his system, and although he likes it best seems to need a more costly dac to balance out his system. Do I have it?
Couple of interesting points- if we come to ths hobby as subjectivists, which the op probably is because the specs of the PS Audio mean little to how he perceives sound quality, then that a Krell sound better than a Yamaha is opinion, and not necessarily fact.
Oh is this twisted about. I've heard absolutely marvelous systems that cost less as a whole than this beloved Weiss.
Perhaps for their this is just system matching as I've found some ultra costly systems, and 100large qualifies, as hyper detailed and dull. |
Levy03, all I have done is stated some thoughts based on extensive evaluation about a product. You on the other hand are aggressively attacking me personally, I don't know why you are desperate to defend the PS Audio DAC - perhaps you are in some way connected to the manufacturer or you are worried about the resale value of your unit.
However, it is silly to think that everything in audio is just a matter of opinion. If that was the case, I could just make a crappy DAC that costs $20 to make, put it in a shiny box, and put a $30,000 price tag on it. Then all I would have to do is find enough people with the opinion that it is the most amazing piece of equipment they ever heard.
Of course reality doesn't work like. Some manufacturers (like Weiss) pour literally years of passion and innovation into their products and clearly that results in better sound.
So better sound is better sound, it is not just a matter of opinion. Therefore I can tell you with confidence that my comments about PS Audio being a below average product with poor sound are actually fact, not just opinion.
A Krell amplifier sounds better than a Yamaha receiver - another fact, not opinion. |
Mcondom, I didn't claim to have a state of the art system (although most people would consider that I do). But if you look at the top systems either used by reviewers, studios, or experienced audiophiles, none of them to my knowledge use the PS Audio DAC. You can basically buy the PS Audio from the Audio Advisor catalog and they will sell you speakers to match. That is typically the caliber of systems that use PS Audio.
On the other hand, I am just trying to make the point that the Weiss delivers remarkable performance for the money. So you don't have to be rich to own one. It's only a little bit more expensive that the PS Audio but can compete with units at just about any cost. The only DAC that I have heard that surpasses the Weiss is the EMM Labs DAC 2X, but it doesn't have a volume control.
But the Weiss makes the Medea and I am drooling over that unit...That will be my next purchase. Trust me guys, if you are on a budget the Weiss is the way to go. When I originally said it was underrated I meant that while it is already highly rated many dont know how good it actually is. |
Mcondon is SOOOO easily impressed. a mere $250,000???. that should be for cables alone!!!!!
i'll need to see a 1 MILLION DOLLAR system before i'm impressed !! =)
after all....it is all about the money spent isn't it???
so....not only does D live in an echo-chamber.....it's a very small echo chamber to boot. you don't get out much do ya D??. the more you post....the more it sounds like you're the one "just getting started in audio". |
Dweinstein, glad you are happy with your DAC. As your posts make clear, it couldn't have happened to a nicer person. But a $100K system really is not "state of the art". Report back when you have $250K invested in it and we will all be suitably impressed. |
Nglazer, show me a SINGLE impressive or state of the art system that uses the PS Audio DAC. I've really only seen the PS Audio in budget systems by people who are just starting out in audio. |
I am impressed at how skewed things can get as evidenced by calling the Weiss' price relatively low. Money thrown at a system is no guarantee of anything except that you've spent lots of dough.
Some time back I heard a significant 5 figure Pre amp. It was no great kicks. |
DWeinstein,
I have been listening to digital players since the first 16-bit Magnavox 650 came out and have upgraded as technology has advanced, so I think I have a decent idea of how DAC's should sound. The PWD MkII is a very high level DAC, both for its sound quality, construction and versatility. I don't know who these "reputable" dealers are but I do not trust their ears any more than I trust my own -- and I would bet few if any of them carry the PS Audio DAC's or have lived with them for extended periods of time. So by all means, express your preferences, but do not denigrate others who do not share your taste. There are those that say the Weiss is overpriced, lacks versatility and sounds clinical.
Neal |
Dweinstein" u just don't get it do you??....and probably never will. feel free to state your *opinion* that the PWD2 is comparable to a pos digital source from the 90's. you can also keep pretending the WeissD2 is a universal giant killer. all i'm telling you is i've compared both and you're wrong thinking things are so black/white. i know people like you and realize how you think/operate. again....not worth my time or effort.
sorry...i'm unimpressed with the $100k opinion lol!
some people like bose.....others like PWD2......then you have a small group arrogant narcissists who really don't understand what it's all about. |
Levy03,
Was your friend's dac the Weiss 202 or one of the previous models (DAC2 or Minerva)? |
Dear Almarg, in this comparison I used multiple inputs but primarily the Berkeley Alpha USB was used at the USB interface driven by MAC mini. The Alpha USB fed the AES input on all DACs. It just makes a very convenient interface. I found little difference driving the Weiss through FireWire or via AES supplied by Alpha USB. Maybe the Alpha USB gave it a touch more control durng complex passages. |
Dear Soix, indeed I am very curious I hear the Bel Canto DAC! From everything I have read about it looks like a formidable contender that should not be missed. Interestingly enough, a few years ago I owned a Bel Canto 845 single ended tube monoblocks. Bel Canto got out of tubes and completely changed direction. However, it was by far one of the best tube amps I ever heard and I regret that I sold it. Amazing sound. |
Levy03, I was simply trying to point out that the Weiss DAC is a world class device that far surpasses its cost in performance. I have a very resolution system with top loudspeakers and amplification and it is very revealing of the tiniest changes. I have spent well over $100,000 on this system. I was surprised to learn that Weiss 202 can compete even with $30,000+ DACs.
But I don't even think its a matter of opinion that PS Audio DAC is flat and not musical and it actually does not have the attributes of a high end DAC.
If you like that sound, indeed that is your taste and you cannot argue taste. There are people who enjoy the Bose sound which in some ways is quite good although it doesn't sound anything like live music.
The PS Audio DAC could not compete with any of the DACs in this group, all of which were vastly superior to the PS Audio. This was immediately heard by other listeners who came by as well. |
Rja, thank you kindly. Best regards,
-- Al |
If there was a "like" button I'd push it Al. Always posts worth reading! |
