Well the Breuer and Brinkmann are not modern arms....but I don't find them particularly elegant.
The Raven pushes no boundaries and is rather pedestrian looking.
I much prefer the looks of the Shroeder arms in terms of their proportions and clarity of purpose.
Of the modern arms, some of the 12" upper Reed models are not so bad.
Happy Nandric? :^) |
Does anybody regard the Breuer or Brinkmann or Raven as beautifully designed tonearms? They look very simple (lookings only of course), a bit Bauhaus design like.
best @ fun only |
Halcro,
I dont think we are that far apart. One of the debates I have been having with myself for 20 yrs in terms of tonearms is the adjustability and ease of setting up accurately vs the added complexity in the arm with the subsequent tradeoffs in rigidity and energy dispersion. The Triplanar is a good talking point - does the gain in accurate setup outweigh the disadvantages of added complexity. Back in the old days the more you removed from the arm the better they sounded eg tonearm lifts etc. For VTA adjustments we made metal blocks with set screws such that we knew 1/4 turn = 1/1000th inch.
We would slip these under the arm lift or whatever was available hanging off the pillar - gave us repeatable, measurable VTA adjustment, and you just remove the block when done.
If I were to redesign the ARO I would either thread the arm pillar and mounting board and eliminate the silly alan nut that holds the pillar ( weak point of many arms I believe ) or put a VTA threaded needle under the arm pillar with a teflon tip so there is minimal additional points of contact, or you can disengage the VTA adjustment contact points when done. |
Dover,
I was a little rash in defining 'Modern Arms' as advancing the art and science?
We all agree that...as Raul says....tonearms are not 'Rocket Science'.....unless you want it to be?
What I really meant by 'Modern Arms' as opposed to the classic arms of the 70s and 80s is the struggle for slight advances with new technologies whilst treating very seriously the important requirement for 'on the fly' adjustments.
Such arms are typified by the Phantom II with Magnaglide and Micropoise, the Triplanar, the Reed, the Durands and the Kuzma 4Point as well as the Continuums.
Having said that......the Micro Seiki MA-505 came with VTF, VTA and anti-skate ALL 'on-the-fly' 30 years ago. As well as having Azimuth adjustment and hydraulic elevating as well as descending arm mechanism.
With this amount of 'on-the-fly adjustment, it made extracting the finest performance from any cartridge particularly easy and thus compared, in sonic ability, to many superior arms of its time and even those of today. |
Halcro -
My original post was correct then, the major advance is the arm tube. As you have articulated there are many other aspects to this arm, many of which have been used before. If you really want to debate the no headshell then look at the Ediswan Arm of 1955 - this is a monocoque structure with cartridge AND phono built into the arm, even had a volume control on the arm.
Seriously though mounting an armboard on magnets and dialing up the softness sounds like a tone control to me. I'm firmly in the camp of having a rigid closed loop between cartridge and groove. No I dont use the Vector as my own personal preference for tonearms is
1. Tangential tracking air bearing
2. True unipivot
I'm happy to acknowledge the likes of Continuum pushing the envelope and challenging current thinking on arm tube design and performance, but one must also acknowledge the designers gone before who have designed, developed & articulated many of the ideas used in the rest of the arm. |
Dear Halcro,
in general you are right. But the cobra tonearm is designed for usage with a floating armboard. It is part of the system. But you may use it without, of course.
best @ fun only |
Dear Geoch,
yes, the armboard is floating but in a very stable way. Four magnets on the rear side of the armboard (two each) are facing four magnets mounted on two special side rests. You may adjust the distance between the magnets for getting a harder or softer "footprint" of the arm.
It is working like in the DaVinci Gabriel II which runs with two big magnetical platters, only moving here.
best @ fun only |
10-11-11: Halcro
OK Johnnyb,
As the Moderator here.....'modern' arms which do not advance the art and science of the design....are not of interest. And why are you so sure that the DPS arm does not "advance the art and science of the design"? |
Dear Thuchan,
excuse me, but do you mean that the armboard is floating?
BTW I thought that the most expensive tonearm was the Pluto 9A Prestige gold. |
Dear Halcro: Tonearm design is not a rocket science and till today as you and Dover knew almost all is already " writed " about. Still there is land for improvements and that's the good subject in thw whole tonearm subject: that we could see new " things " on tonearm design in the future these could means that our cartridges will perform better that with the today tonearms ( any )?: who knows but I hope the new tonearms to come could do it and elevate the quality performance level on what the/our cartridges are showing us today.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Thuchan,
We are talking tonearms only.
When you take the Cobra or Copperhead off the Caliburn or Criterion and put them on a normal TT......you don't have a magnetically supported armboard. Pity ;^) |
Well Dover,
You play with your Vector.......uh....do you even have one?
And I'll listen to my Copperhead.
One of us will keep smiling :^) |
Dear all,
As no one is following my advice to look underneath the Cobra arm and the ignorance level is rising (like that word, picked it up in another thread - sorry) may I add:
which tonearm provides a magnetical supported armboard allowing adjustment (hard, soft)?
and to my knowledge it is the most expensive tonearm - but this is an innovation of a different kind.
best @ fun only |
Dover,
That's right....the Cobra and Copperhead arms are dual pivots. Not too many of them around?
All the tonearms you define without headshells actually have very well defined headshells. The Syrinx PU2 even has a solid bar fixed across its armtube to which the cartridge is screwed. The other arms have a flattened out shaped metal headshellsl welded to the armtubes. Because you can't see the welds doesn't make the headshell invisible?
All the counterweights you cite are well above that of the Continuums but more importantly, change their Moments of Inertia about the pivot with each addition or subtraction of a counterweight.
Because the Continuum's counterweights face downwards, the Moment of Inertia about the pivot remains constant.
The ET2 wiring exits from the top and lies loosely across the arm putting lateral force into the arm tracking. There is no vertical support hoop as in the Continuums?
But the most important and revolutionary impact of the Continuums is the shape and material (not carbon fibre) of the tonearm and the way this shape and construction were calculated with the aid of aerospace computers.
A pivoted tonearm is a very complex structural diagram to plot.
It is not a full cantilever because it is semi-propped by the stylus.
It is also a counterweighted cantilever which gives a totally different vector forces diagram than a pure cantilever.
Almost every tonearm in history has tended to ignore this structural complexity and make the armtube constant shape from pivot to cartridge whilst others have tapered the tube in a classic cantilever response to stresses.
Neither one is structurally correct and when lateral movement is added to the equation, these two basic solutions are unsophisticated.
For the first time in history, the same computer power that designs the structure and air effects of Formula 1 cars is utilised for tonearms.
As for the fit and finish of the DaVinci qualifying it for 'advancing' the state of the art.....you surely jest?
I have the DaVinci, the FR-66S and the Copperhead head to toe on the Raven AC 3 and the 35 year old FR-66S looks newer than the 4 year old Grandezza. The Copperhead is perhaps a fraction below the fit and finish of the DaVinci...but not far at all. The SAEC WE308 is a notch higher than the Grandezza whilst the SAEC 407/23 is another notch further up and the Mixro Seiki MA505S is a clear 3 notches higher.
You obviously don't wish to see the facts behind these revolutionary arms but there are better judges than you or I who have already written their verdicts :^) |
Hey Halcro - thought you might like to read up on the original Vector by AJ Conti -
The Vector 1 tonearm utilizes a hybrid bearing featuring a point contact, .020” radius polished male pivot fabricated from hardened tool steel. The female cup is ground and polished from sapphire and is precisely radiused to achieve self-centering with the pivot. The entire weight of the tonearm is concentrated on the primary pivot, with an innovative stabilization bearing controlling azimuth as well as guaranteeing stability of the vertical rotational plane of the stylus. This new, advanced bearing system solves the problems with all previous fixed bearing arms (bearing chatter, lack of azimuth correction) as well as the problems with unipivot bearings (azimuth “rocking” reaction reducing bass and dynamics, “loose” hand operation, unstable azimuth reaction to vertical record warps). The result is a tonearm of unprecedented sonic performance and superior tracking, guaranteeing reduced record wear.
The Vector tonearm is designed with a center of gravity offset from the main pivot, generating a couple (torque) about the axis of the armtube. This torque creates a secondary force resulting in a constant side-load against the stabilizing bearing, which consists of an azimuth guide arm riding against an ABEC 7 precision ball bearing. The guide arm is ground and polished to a .060” radius, creating a point contact against the .125” radius bearing. The secondary bearing is loaded in a purely radial, uni-directional fashion, eliminating all free play as well as any requirement for the bearing to support axial loads. With a radial runout of .0001” or less, the secondary bearing guarantees azimuth stability to within .01070. The secondary bearing is submerged in an extremely temperature independent damping fluid, guaranteeing no possibility of bearing chatter. The azimuth guide arm is angled at the exact angle of the headshell, forcing the tonearm to maintain azimuth while traversing record warps and at all VTA settings. The above arrangement yields a silent bearing that is supremely stable, resulting in effortless sound and pinpoint, stable imaging.
Look familiar.
This has been around for years. Better add the Vector to the list of true advances in tonearm science. AJ Conti has also been championing a balance centre of mass approach to unipivots as well, ie dont hang the balls too low, because if you do when the arm hits a warp, the low riding weight acts as a pendulum and tracking force increases as the arm has to lift the balls through a wider arc.
So what's new about the Continuum - did they invent the ABEC 9 bearing ?? |
Halcro, see my comments below :
Look at the unipivot design with a stabilising pivot on a sapphire jewelled swash plate to maintain stability
Comment - I would argue this is not a unipivot as the bearing has multiple contact points and the arm does not have a single path to ground.
Look at the total lack of headshell?
Comment - Alphason - one piece titanium arm/cartridge mounting, ET2 - one piece tube/headshell, Syrinx PU2 - no headshell.
Look at the cam-weighted anti-skate designed to increase as the arm moves inwards.
I'll give you this but there have been other solutions to provide increasing antiskate force using magnets, elastomer threads ( Helius ), etc
Look at the jewel-encapsulated unipivot.
Comment - Naim Aro, Immedia Centroid
Look at the tonearm wiring exiting from the top of the arm and how it's supported on a stainless steel hoop frame to avoid any pressure on the arm movement.
My ET2
Look at the azimuth adjustment utilising the actual swash-plate?
Not a unipivot then, the Vector also uses a stabiliser system.
Look at the ability (with the Copperhead) to have additional armwands which can be substituted complete with their fixed cartridges?
Naim Aro, VPI - both complete with counterweight etc.
Look at the counterweight system design with its placement so far below the level of the turntable platter?
Odyssey RPG from 20 yrs ago, Naim Aro, Kuzma unipivot, Blue Note Unipivot, countless others.
Modern arms that have interesting facets - by the way this does not guarantee performance - Naim Aro for 1/2 the reasons you gave for the Contimuum, Roksan Artemiz - pyramidal bearing and intelligent counterweight, Eminent Technology - 1st air bearing tangential that worked, Air Tangent air bearing, Helius - single point allignment of vertical and horizontal bearings that they claim ensures energy hits both vertical and horizontal bearings in phase to reduce smearing, then you get into the likes of the Breuer, Da Vinci where craftsmenship are clearly evident.
You missed the unique counterweight and pivot point at the same height as the record surface.
Answer - Immedia RPM & Centroid.
I'm sure there are many others. I have no doubt the Continuum arms are excellent, and they would be on my short list if I were to upgrade from the Aro, along with the Immedia Centroid. However to suggest they are beautiful and push the frontiers of tonearm science is an overstatement in my view. |
Dear Dover, if you wait a few months, you can answer Halcro's last question with much more ease ....;-) .....
Cheers,
D. |
Dover,
Look at the shape and materials used in the arm construction and tell me it looks like all the other tonearms produced today?
To say it is similar to those plastic arms of the 50s is fatuous.
Look at the unipivot design with a stabilising pivot on a sapphire jewelled swash plate to maintain stability.
Look at the total lack of headshell?
Look at the cam-weighted anti-skate designed to increase as the arm moves inwards.
Look at the jewel-encapsulated unipivot.
Look at the tonearm wiring exiting from the top of the arm and how it's supported on a stainless steel hoop frame to avoid any pressure on the arm movement.
Look at the azimuth adjustment utilising the actual swash-plate?
Look at the ability (with the Copperhead) to have additional armwands which can be substituted complete with their fixed cartridges?
Look at the counterweight system design with its placement so far below the level of the turntable platter?
And finally.......listen to the results!
To say any one of these elements has been used before negates the fact that there is a vocabulary of successful design principles which is fairly
limited in regards to choice?
If you don't agree that the Cobra/Copperhead designs have advanced the state of the art then that is your prerogative.
Please provide an example of an arm that in your opinion does for us to analyse |
Halcro -
Dont intend to be cynical, but your criteria was "advanced the art and science". You said if an arm does not meet this criteria it is not of interest.
Can someone please explain how the Continuum arms have advanced the science. That is my question. What do you think are the breakthrough design concepts that are unique or new that have been introduced to tonearm science from the design, development and production of the Continuum arms.
|
Apparently, no one bought it for its looks first. When you look on their site, it says it was designed with the help of software. They design aircraft that way. Then the test pilot gets to see if it does fly, and it seems to work. Same goes for new buildings, plus who know what else. So it seems to have worked here too. |
To say that the Cobra/Copperhead designs have all been done before displays a cynicism or ignorance which is not shared by other arm designers.
We may as well say all pivoted tonearms do the same job and use principles of engineering and construction in various combinations?
Same for cartridges, turntables, amplifiers and speakers.
Move along.....no discussion here....nothing to see.
Oh....and no carbon fibre was hurt in the making of these arms :-) |
Hi all, thanks for accepting the observations, my key points are :
I have no issues with the performance. I question the aesthetics and I question what is really new.
To me there is a total disconnect in the arm tube style vs the pillar design.
For example the Ortofon A90 mounted on the arm - looks much more homogenous than the arm tube/pillar combo.
I have not seen the arm but have read all the blurb, and the only thing "new" is the arm tube - note however that the Wilson Benesch arms use carbon fiber and claim to have dealt with the resonances.
Unipivot - done before
Hangy thread - done before
Fixed counterweight - done before
Pivot point at record level - done before
Carbon fibre arm tube with computer calculated resonance control - done before
VTA tower that does not alter pivot to stylus distance - done before
Perhaps if they included a built in cartridge, the armtube being the cartridge body, the coils connected directly to a phono stage embedded in the carbon fiber using nano technology, .. oh and connectivity to the internet such that customers can go online specify the sound they like and download the parameters into the built in phono. |
My votes :
Saec WE8000ST
ODYSSEY
Pluto 9A
Exclusive EA3
FR 66S
Saec WE308SX
|
As in Hans Christian Andersen's ugly duckling. It turns into a Swan when it's needle touches the vinyl. (I like them)!! |
Has anyone here bought the arm (Cobra) because its looks got their attention and thought, I'm buying it because I really like or love its looks, and if it performs great, it's a keeper? |
Dear Thuchan, I know that you are one of the most generous, open-minded and modest man I've meet in Audio and I know that tolerance is high on your agenda.
And you know that I have quite some respect for the Cobra - something I can't say about that many tonearms.
Yes - let's agree that it is about looks ...
Cheers,
D. |
No No Deartonarm, don`t get me wrong. You should know me. I can stand different opinions and I do respect other people view. It is not that I own this "ugly Telephone handle" (BTW does not work that way). What sometimes drives me crazy is if people are talking about technical implications but have obviously no glue about the basics of the unit. If I don`t know I don`t talk about it. If I don`t have my own experience with it I may address that I am guessing (this helps assessing for other people).
So let`s compromise - it was only about looks...
best @ fun only |
Well there are obvious problems in describing 'the shock
of the new' with the old predicates. Say: retro, Art Deco, Bakelite Telephone handle, etc. In the countries in which horses and iron were known the first seen locomotive was called the 'iron horse'. So no wonder there are those who
claim: there is nothing new under the son. However 'old' and 'new' are supposed to be different.
Regards,
|
Dear Isochronism, I know you as a man of taste and aesthetics alike.
I have no doubt, that the Cobra (don't think so of the Copperhead) will have it's place in audio history.
It won't end like the FR-66s with a much higher price tag than new 25 years after being discontinued, but it will not be forgotten.
No mistakes here - It is a good tonearm.
Better in many sonic respects than most do think.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Thuchan, I was referring to Henry's initial post ....... and Dover's comment on the outlook of the arm wand is a bit disrespectful, but not to far fetched (okay - the frostbite banana is heavy stuff !).
I know that both - you and Henry do cherish your Cobra for both the sound and the unusual look.
But it is retro style looking - even if there may be a few good reasons for the composition and design of the arm wand.
Cheers,
D. |
Deartonearm,
pls. read, it is not only about the looks. Or do I have some problems in understanding...
"That rules out the Continuum arms then - there is nothing new there other than the "shape" of the arm tube - which looks like an Art Deco Bakelite Slimline Telephone handle or an overripe banana with frostbite"
best @ fun only |
Historically, most "ahead of their times" were looked down upon until consideration and reasoning caught up. The Copperhead and Cobra are perhaps the Cyrano de Bergarac of tonearms. |
Careful folks - Dover was referring to the outlook only and he is pretty on track with his description.
This is NOT about any performance nor prospective technical advance or new feature of the Cobra arm - it was/is about "looks".
And - well ... - it is a very retro arm wand reminding many of us of the old 1940s bakelite "tonearms".
So retro .... beautiful .... well .... ugly .... not really neither.
Cheers,
D. |
Halcro,
I like you in the role of the Director of the Aesthetics branch. Maybe you hire Audiofeil as the Director of the Bureau of Humor - I always do me hard to understand him, does he live in a small country? or is he very remote?
Dover,
obviously you do`not know the Cobra arm, otherwise you would not have stated - there is nothing new. Maybe you should start looking underneath the arm first. This is the advice I also gave Audiofeil but he seems to know better,so he may answer your upcoming questions more precisely...
best @ fun only |
Halcro,
"As the Moderator here.....'modern' arms which do not advance the art and science of the design....are not of interest."
That rules out the Continuum arms then - there is nothing new there other than the "shape" of the arm tube - which looks like an Art Deco Bakelite Slimline Telephone handle or an overripe banana with frostbite.
Seriously Halcro - there is a total disconnect in aesthetic between the arm pillar, VTA adjusters etc and the arm tube itself. It is the design equivalent of a carbon fiber and glass box stuck on the back of an 1880's wooden villa - and the villa still has nails sticking out of it.
As for fit and finish - as one who has worked extensively in the surgical implant business - it is average. |
Dear Halcro, When Marie Antoinette asked her servants why
the people are revolting she got as answer: they have no
bread to eat. Marie was very suprised and asked: but why
they don't eat cookie's instead?
You seem to have as much understandig of 'people' as Marie.
Ie you are professionaly involved in eastethics, have interest in art your 'whole life' and you expect the 'commons' to admire Cobra tonearm?
There is a grammar reason also. If we think as we speak then there is an obvious dominance of 'S is P' (subject-predicate) sentence form. We ascribe some predicate to a given object. Say Mona Lisa is the most beautiful painting
ever made. Ascribing an predicate to a given object is the
same as to know what kind of conditions an object must satisfy in order to decide if the object in casu satisfy the conditions. The 'is' between S and P has 4 different
logical readings one of which is the existence. Ie there is
no much sense in ascribing an predicate to a not existent object. This would mean some quality without a bearer.
Now those 'new objects of art' or 'the shock of the new' as
you put it are obviously never seen before.Ie 'non existent'. So the most of us have no idea what predicate to put on or no idea what kind of conditions this new object
satisfy. The only way out seem to be some comparison with
'the old ,known one'. And there is our dilemma:it looks not similar to anything I know. Those who are educated in art are in a different position because they get the 'feeling' for the art and are able to recognise the 'new beauty' or something 'special' in an new object of art.
We in Holland have Van Gogh museum. The riddle: the most visitors come from Japan. The most of them come to Holland primary because of Van Gogh and, probably, tulips.
Regards, |
Sound quality IS NOT important, according to the premise of this thread. :-) |
Thales Simplicity arm?.......interesting.
Not ugly......certainly more beautiful than the Kuzma 4 Point.
How does it sound Leicachamp? |
I am Shallow. I purchased a Thales Simplicity arm over a Kuzma 4Point mainly because of looks. Glad I am not the only one that shallow.
What do u guys think. The Thales Simplicity. Beauty or Beast? Careful now you may hurt my feelings. Lol |
OK Johnnyb,
As the Moderator here.....'modern' arms which do not advance the art and science of the design....are not of interest.
Otherwise we could have a 'modern' reproduction of the FR-66S?
Heh......now you're talking :-) |
The DPS tonearm for the DPS/Ayre turntable is clean and sleek and utterly functional. For about $12K (maybe less), this turntable/tonearm combo is easily the equal of a $30K SME rig while sleeker and cleaner looking. And it's definitely modern. This arm came out within the last 3 years or so. |
Let us know when you reach the promised land. |
Bill,
Good taste is its own reward :^) |
Thanks for the art history lesson Halcro.
A lipsticked pig is still a pig. |
Wow....the shock of the new!
In the visual arts, a truly new aesthetic is often initially found to be ugly.
Cezanne, van Gogh and Gauguin brought new aesthetics which in turn lead to Cubism, the Fauves, Der Blau Reiter, Expressionism and Modern Art as we know it today. Van Gogh sold one painting during his lifetime.
Even Impressionism was initially considered ugly and confronting although marking the 'end' of Classical Painting rather than the 'beginning' of Modern Art?
As Director of the Aesthetics Police here......I hereby pronounce the Continuum arms to be 'beautiful' and 'functional' :-)
And Thuchan........if you are prepared to wait 5-10 years.....I predict that your Cobra and Copperhead will reward you on the 'Collectors' market, with prices unimaginable today?
All the while.......producing celestial sounds to soothe the savage beast. |
09-24-11: Thuchan
Rockitman,
thought so too. when I was looking at the Continuum Cobra usually on images or at fairs I thought it is a funny creature. When you have installed this arm and you look on your turntable this arm has some powerful elegance. It is a design piece!
best & fun only
Sound quality is most important. The Cobra is at the top of class as far as radial arms go in that category. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I did take a look at you system pics. Wow ! PS: A Cobra is welcome in my system anytime ! |
God thank you that we have different taste and we get not stoned if we are the ugliest - extreme propositions call for extreme point of views.
and not everyone deserves the best - har har
best @ fun only |
Dear Halcro, as you know, I am low tempered and a rather remote character .... while I really like the Cobra's VTA-tower in execution and handiness ( I had a good, intense and deep look at it at Thuchan's), I am not really taken by the late 1940s design of the arm wand at all.
It really is not form-follows-function, but rather "look here !!! man, I am REALLY different...".
But it sounds good.
Cheers,
D. |
Dan_ed, thanks. I did not want to say that myself. Halcro and I must have very different taste :) |
there are more beautiful and more elegant, higher build quality tonearms, and less beautiful and less elegant, and lower build quality tonearms, but from my perspective they are all beautiful and elegant. i'm trying to think of a tonearm which does not cause me to smile at least a little in anticipation....i cannot think of any.
ugly tonearms? no.
not to my taste? sure.
if i had a collection of iconic vintage tonearms i might feel differently. |
