Thank you Thuchan for bringing up this amazing topic which is far less discussed on this forum than typical modern products. I have been researching on the EMT tables off late. It is really nice to see someone with so much analog experience still not being able to get over the big EMT. Can you please help me answer two things:
1. How does the 927 compared to 930 which is also an Idler drive ? Or for that matter how is the 950 in comparison ? Is there big gap between 927 and all other EMTs ?
2. Have you ever heard a nicely setup Platine Verdier ? It is not a modern design but is a classic belt drive. How does it compare to the EMT sound ?
Regards
Pani |
I believe the secret of the 927 may actually be simple. It works using brute force in a way that no one has ever tried to mimic in an idler type because of the difficulty of obtaining such a powerful and smooth running motor. EMT built that motor in house, but they used it on no other EMT turntable. There are also some construction nuances of the turntable that have been overlooked by other turntable manufacturers.
I have often wondered where my turntable would fall in a comparison. Would be better, as good, almost as good, no where near as good? Maybe I'll find out one day. |
Dear all,
I posted since 36 hours but my two posts are not published yet.
I have to admit that with this kind of moderation I cannot communicate timely. I have to apoligize for this unprofessional forum management by the moderator. It is not my fault and I feel not treated well in my own thread.
eckart |
how do the other EMT tt's compare to the 927? such as the 948, for instance?
i know the 927 is an idler, while the 948 is direct drive. i owned a Garrard 301 for a few years and did enjoy it's 'meaty' presentation on certain music, but in the end i preferred higher resolution, more nuanced approaches as my everyday musical diet.
thanks. |
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Dear Peterayer,
I will try to describe the differences I have found with the same tonearm (SME 3012 I - first series, which I regard as one of the best arms ever built- in comparison to some of its direct successors) on the same MS board I have used on the MS tables as well as on my R-80.
Also I used the same cart (lyra Atlas) and same phono pre (EMT JPA-66 with its own SUT).
When you listen to Jimmy Smith organ interpretation the underlying energy from the EMT puts any other turntable to shame. This I guess is demonstrating that despite the wider grooves and resistance they represent the EMT drive just keeps it steady and going strong.
The decay of piano notes on a Bill Evans record (originals and AP 45 reissues) just seem to last forever with the EMT even under the notes being played, my belt drives have a tendency to come short in this arena.
On the other hand the Micro Seiki SX II (double vaccum) has some other advantages which will bring it very close to the EMT, maybe the best belt drive design ever built and regarding rock music my absolut favourite with a FR-66 mounted. |
I remember (vaque)the review of 'the best 10 turntables' in
some Japanese Magazine in the 80is(?). To my surprice,
and that is why I remeber, one of the EMT got the first price.
Back then but also at present my 'technical judgment' was/is
'based' on the looks so I wondered how such an old-fashioned
and clumsy thing could win the first price? I see some of those
on the German ebay and always think that the seller made a typo
by the price. I don't believe that Thuchan would make me happy
by giving me his as present. So Thuchan I would prefer the
'Aussie one' while you can keep the best one.
Regards, |
Implicit in your question is that the EMT is the best turntable available. I don't think anyone can realistically prove this one way or the other because no one or group of listeners has compared it to all other candidates in the same system with the same arm and cartridge and tone arm cable.
I don't think anyone can answer your question. We can hope, or believe, or think, or wish, but we can not know. It can make for interesting discussion though.
I would like to read how Thuchan describes the sound of this table (as isolated from cartridge, arm, cable) compared to at least two others that he has heard in identical environments. That could get this conversation started. |
Dear Lewm,
I am comparing both, inbuilt and external phono stages. I have the chance to compare a 927 with an inbuilt phono stage as well as my R-80 in connection with the EMT JPA-66, Boulder 2008, Kondo M7 and Zanden 1200 MK II phono stages running carts on a Ortofon RMA-309 (TSD) or SME 3012 I -first series- (e.g. Atlas, Neumann DST, Denon ZU). I had some other very good turntables which all had its sunny sides, to mention some: Kelch Reference II, Goldmund Reference I, Garrard 501, Nakamichi 1000, Technics SP10 MK II. I used them in my phono lines extensively. Pretty sure the new owners are happy with these designs.
Nevertheless my experiences are not limited to the listed tables and lines :-) but just to give you an idea and a better understanding of the test field enabling you assessing for your own purposes.
Dear Halcro,
understand :-). To give you some words on the sound: The EMT provides a majestic soundstage, it is stable and dominant, musical, warm - just overwhelming. You will hear a difference to some other idlers which are sometimes too much on the bassy side. Currently I am running a TSD Anniversary in the Ortofon RMA 309 via a Western Electric 618B SUT to the EMT JPA-66 phono stage. This is my DreamLine!
The Caliburn and the Micros are wonderful machines, too. All are belt driven and comprise lots of armboard possibilities, even the Criterion with the TOHO external stand. I love switching between the three remaining tables in my room. Due to space problems I am reducing from 5 to 3 tables. I listened to some other new designs and was impressed of the Brinkmann Oasis with the Thales Simplicity arm on a HRS board, maybe together with the new Thales TTT-C table one of the convincing new designs. But they will not (and don't need ) reaching the EMT. |
@Halcro, I have no doubt Thuchan has more experiences on TT than I do but it doesn't mean he has listened to all. Unless he have, I think making a strong absolute "the best" statement is kind of premature.
@Thuchan, No, I can't tell you that because my experience with the EMT was more than 30 years ago and I have never compared the EMT with another table side-by-side. |
is that an answer? Not really :-) You are saying that the EMT sounds better because it basically IS better? But for those of us who haven't heard one and are unlikely to........how does its presentation differ from say......your Micros or Continuum? |
So you're really comparing a turntable/tonearm/cartridge/built-in phono stage system to a bunch of other turntables with other tonearms and cartridges. But can you say what turntables you have side by side with the EMT927, besides Caliburn and MS?
57s4me, I think your analogy is faulty but so is your premise. The Quad 57 is surely wonderful for reproducing midrange but it has some limitations in relation to bandwidth and power handling. The amplifier also must be very carefully chosen, so (at least) I don't think of the Quad 57 as an ultimate tool for evaluation of other components, especially amplifiers. |
Thuchan, It would help if you would list the turntables that you have actually compared to the EMT 927, in the "here and now" (as HP used to say). What I mean is not to rely on remote memory of how this or that turntable sounded.
I know you have the Caliburn and the big MS turntables. What else? |
Dear Halcro,
"No voodoo is any turntable rest assured! plain facts. EMT927 was designed and built with no shortcuts, power/torque & size of motor, serious bearing, platter height, distance of motor fixation to arm, the list is long....just well done and that gives us what? Well? all we need! indeed stable speed, no rumble or wow, isolation...etc. In fact if you look at the claims marketed by TT marker of this day they are just telling us that EMT had nailed them all. Simple! EMT 927 & R80 users tend to listen to their records, keep quiet and enjoy, full stop. But to really get a grasp on what it is worth? You have to get one....and in that lies the issue no doubt?.
One has to accept the limitations of any choice and EMT is no exception! With the 927 forget the "playing with arm and carts game", you don't have to change any parameters when using the excellent TSD Tondosen. Or if you have the 139st onboard forget the "matching the impedance and dishing out big bucks on phono-stages" that both come sometimes with more questions than they answer? so "idler-drive distinctiveness or something else"....no idea, I just play that deck more and more and as this community knows I have no shortage of TT's...is that an answer?
|
I think this is a perfectly valid question, as there is some precedent.
There is a loudspeaker that was made in the late 1950s that has probably been used by more designers to 'voice' amplifiers (and other speakers) than any other. Peter Walker's Quad electrostatic speaker. It still (60 years later) stands for many as the pinnacle of speaker design. For, what it did to the all-important midrange was, and some say still is, unimprovable.
If this is indeed so, then, by extension, it is possible that the EMT 927 is, as Thuchan states, the best turntable ever made. Of course, we have to believe that it's possible that there is something better, but evidence might not suggest this.
If the job of a given piece of audio equipment is to extract information from a source that has a finite amount of information to give - and to do no harm in the process - then there might be a 'fininite-ness' in the process. There is no absolute reason to think that progress is infinite. For emotional reasons one might wish it otherwise, but this is not necessarily true. |
I think this is a perfectly valid question, as there is some precedent.
There is a loudspeaker that was made in the late 1950s that has probably been used by more designers to 'voice' amplifiers (and other speakers) than any other. Peter Walker's Quad electrostatic speaker. It still (60 years later) stands for many as the pinnacle of speaker design. For, what it did to the all-important midrange was, and some say still is, unimprovable.
If this is indeed so, then, by extension, it is possible that the EMT 927 is, as Thuchan states, the best turntable ever made. Of course, we have to believe that it's possible that there is something better, but evidence might not suggest this.
If the job of a given piece of audio equipment is to extract information from a source that has a finite amount of information to give - and to do no harm in the process - then there might be a 'fininite-ness' in the process. There is no absolute reason to think that progress is infinite. For emotional reasons one might wish it otherwise, but this is not necessarily true. |
Dear Thuchan,
Can you please describe the 'qualities' of the EMT 927 that you hear....and how they differ from other high-end designs?
Is it purely an idler-drive distinctiveness or is there something else? |
I think you will find that Thuchan has listened to more of the modern designs (including owning one of the best...Continuum Criterion) as well as more of the 'Classic' designs.....than most people on this Forum.
And that includes Reviewers. |
Sidssp,
tell me a modern design you think it will surpass the sound qualities of the EMT 927? I will then tell you if I have not listened to it in all the private systems I was able to study and all the audio fairs I went to. In this case I am eager to learn and will try testing the design if possible. |
With all due respect, unless you have listened to all of the turntables in modern designs, it might be premature to make an absolute statement like this. |
