Supporting Local Audio Stores are we?


I know, money talks, bullshi* walks...
But having owned an audio store for about a dozen years, I know how tough it is to 'make a living' for a mom and pop store, without some sugar daddy/momma in the background funding the enterprize.
So, I am wondering if the nice folks of Audiogon support local businesses?
As I stated, "Money Talks" and I get it, we all want the best 'value' for our money. The question is...when does the price versus local support begin/end. When does the follow up and or service/set up outweigh the raw savings?
To be clear, I am not talking fantastic discounts, but a few percentage points off retail. I remember a painful transaction that I had once, during which a customer had taken home a particular CD player two weekends running, only to purchase elsewhere because he 'saved' $53.00 (on a $500. item). OUCH!
I contended that without the long term audition, he had nothing on which to base his purchase? How does everyone else see this?
Right now, its obviously a tough financial climate out there, but looking to more normal times, I am wondering how many of the readers/writers of Audiogon would forego price for service/set up? OK, forget buying great used pieces for fractions of original retail, everyone must probably assume that that's good for everyone, including the dealers, as this frees up customers who are now, 'back in the hunt'.

It will be interesting to hear back, it's been some time since the Brick and Mortar (at least for me) question was aired out.

Best,
Larry
lrsky
A million plus people in the local metropolitan area, but my/our high end store has long since gone to a HT focus. Before that, I bought an LS2B MkII preamp and a Theta Gen IIIa, both as demos, from them, and bought a V100 Mk II on A'gon after auditioning it earlier at the dealer because they stopped carrying ARC. I also had an out-of-town friend come to see me so he could audition speakers, and I was very frustrated at how the inventory had changed for the worse. It would be hard for me to buy some things from local dealers, since the local dealership is no longer high end. Agree with other posters, however, that auditioning comes at a cost, and that I owe something to a shop that permits me to listen to gear before buying.

Nonetheless, sure am glad this site exists.
I would take any retail business that would net me 15%, if there was a market for it. If you can't keep the lights on with that, there is no market.
High end audio (especially two channel) has become an exteremly niche market. WIth dealers closing up left and right (we lost the only two we had with the past three years, and they were not exactly high end) it's going to get worse. I have discovered so much more stuff than I ever would have because of audiogon and other audio related websites.

Buying new is tough because it always great to be the first to open the box and pull the plastic off for the first time, but it sure it tough to swallow prices from manufacturers that keep raising them. Since I discovered the DIY speaker hobby a few years ago, I can't bring myself to pay for the packing and marketing and research that is required for a commercially available product.

HT will stick around, but I think you will see less and less two channel gear. Sure, some will stay, and new ones will hopefully show up, but it will still remain something that only 1% of the population cares about.
I have one local dealer who only carries only a few high quality, good value lines that cover most of the bases for most and operates in very modest quarters with low overhead. He provides discounts to repeat customers and has a nice assortment of gear to audition.

If I spend time auditioning and like what I hear, I am inclined to buy there if the prices are competitive and value is there, which it usually is. I bought my tube pre-amp there recently new for a very competitive price on one of the last of a highly regarded but recently discontinued model. I'll continue to frequent his shop as long as it is around.

I also buy direct from the manufacturer over the internet and used from ebay and here as well case by case.

I do not support ritzy "high end" shops around that incur a lot of overhead to provide glitz and cater to the elitist crowd. These are increasingly focused on home theater systems these days anyway.
To put margins in perspective...I am told by a friend who has sold furniture for many years, that the wholesale to retail in furniture is, one third of the retail price. So a $1000. retail item costs the dealer about $300. He also said that this varries quite a bit, but that is the general rule. That would be not exactly but about the inverse of Audio pricing, which for many years had a markup of 40%, or $1000. had dealer cost of $600. That was for typical gear, amps, receivers and such. Some speakers had a markup of 50%, but that usually carried minimum annual purchase requirements.
Having been there, as a dealer, I am sure that, making $400. on an item that you pay $2600 for (as suggested above) would make for a much worse survival rate than we're now seeing.
The dealer cost mentioned above from, apparently someone who visited CES and was given dealer costs, may have represented a new company trying to make an entry into the market, or perhaps, maybe with with slower business, this may portend a shift in dealer cost to retail, with the hopes of helping dealers to stay in the game.
Without going crazy here, lets do the math for a dealer making the suggested margin.

Let's say that the dealer does $50K in a month, with a cost of almost 86%. That would mean that he/she makes a gross margin of $7000. If its a single store operation, mom and pop, and he rents space in a strip mall or small building, and pays $2500. rent, $400. for electricity, has a vehicle for $400. per month, insurance for $200 per month, one college kid as an assistant, for $10 per hour ($1600. per month), his personal profit before taxes is $1900. for his efforts which if they represent only a 40 hour week,(not likely) he's making less than $12.00 per hour.
This won't work. So let's double the profit to 28% and he's making $3800. per month or $24. per hour, or a little over $900 per week.
Depending on the part of the country one lives this can be a hard wage to live on.
Obviously these prices of doing business are silly and don't really reflect a true picture, but I think it shows that the 40% starting figure is a more realistic picture. It also shows why I asked the guy who stiffed me, saving the $53.00 why it was so upsetting.
Now these guys have to contend with the internet, AND 'no taxes', which in most states is at least 6% of the gross price which most people consider to be a worthwhile inducement to buy over the net. Wow...that's a tough living.
Now, further, let's assume the best...he sails along and does $50K every month until "Back to school" and the first thing that goes from the budget is 'luxury goods', toys like this. He does half. The expenses remain constant, but his profit goes in the toilet.
Herein lies the plight of the small audio retailer. I know, I was there. It really is a tough business.
This is not meant to piss any one off. It's simply a sophomoric look at the Audio business world.
Ironically, most manufacturers want VOLUME, and give preferred pricing to the stores who can to large volumes. This creates an adversarial relationship between the small dealers who can't, and the larger who can. I have heard horror stories from small dealers recently, that some large city dealers can call XYZ factory and 'make an offer' on a bulk purchase. For example, "I'll buy $50K of product, but give you $40K. The manufacturer sees the $40K of instant sales, and give in. The big dealer then has a 20% price reduction which he can pass on to the customer on an internet sale, and still make his normal margin, (not exactly correct, but its easy to see this scenario). Mom and pop, lose the sale to a NYC or Chicago dealer because the customer gets a 20% discount, AND saves 6% sales tax. Viscious circle huh?
Then mom and pop dealer's customer comes in a month later and 'fesses up' that he bought over the net and saved a ton, and frankly who can blame him?

All this from a simple, are you supporting local stores.
It's almost enough to make us think that perhaps all sales should be factory direct, except for one thing...no demos.

Any thoughts?

Larry