Jazz for aficionados

Frogman:

I think this exchange is very important, at least to me it is. I now have a 'concrete example' to play over and over again. And your reasoning to read over and over again. I think after this, I will understand your concept of Jazz.

I will listen to 'Tiger Rag' many times, and try and hear what you hear. And also listen for the 'clutter' in Sweet Georgia Brown.

Thanks for the post.

Cheers

Rok, "The Three Sounds". Chico Hamiltons West Coast CD's were lacking in the sonic department, they weren't as good as the "You tube's". That's why I asked.

Rok, thank you for the reasoned response. To be clear, I am not saying that the Marsalis cut is not jazz, how could I? Only that in the context of that particular idiom and what should be appropriate vocabulary for a tune in that style, I think the Peplowski is more convincing. For instance, all is pretty good until the drums, and later, trumpet and sax come in. The feel is appropriate and "bouncy" (why so many of the tunes from that era had the word "Bounce" in the title); then, when the drums come in, things jump forward a couple of decades (an eternity in the evolution of jazz) with decidedly much more modern swing feel. The horn soloists, likewise, can't resist not staying strictly "inside" the harmony and jump even further ahead with their use of extended harmony (outside the traditional harmony). An over-analysis to be sure, and I am not saying that it is bad at all, or that it is not appropriate to play any tune in any style (Coltrane's "My Favorite Things" !!!), only that the ingredients in that recipe, for me, don't come together as well as in the other one.

Frogman:
Frank Vignola is a guitar virtusos!! The guy is like the Maurice Andre of the guitar. I looked him up on Wikipedia to see his background. It ain't Jazz. As I suspected, he is a great master of the instrument and apparently teaches and publishes how to books on guitar playing. He is good enough to do that.

I listened to more of his youtube stuff to sort of get a context in which to put him. He has clips playing, Scheherezade, Beethoven's Fifth, and several Jazz Standards. Almost as if he is an exhibitionist. He is shown with some other guitarist at something called the Long Beach Jazz Fest. Not very impressive.

The bottom line is this, IMO, he is, as I said a virtuoso. He can play anything. Is he a Jazz guitartist? He has the skills for sure, the question is, does he have an affinity for the music?

Sweet Georgia Brown (SGB)
Could you subconsciously be under the influence of Django and people of his ilk. For instance, When I hear SGB, I think, Stephane and Django. I don't know why. After all, no one does it, or can do it, like Ella. It's that 'bounce' of the guitar. Makes me think that's the way SGB is 'supposed' to sound. Le Hot Club? But that's not correct. It can sound anyway the artist wants it to sound. I liked his solo and I liked the Quintet just as much.

Tiger Rag:

His playing on Tiger Rag was good. I listened to it again and appreciate it more now. I still think a duo of guitar and clarinet does not have the 'weight' to do Jazz justice. His solo on SGB was better due to the backing of Carlos Henriquez on bass.

The most I see him doing in Jazz is having a nice career in Europe or carve a niche for himself here in the USA as a player / teacher. Sort of like Grappelli.

As always, IMO.

Cheers

Rok, in NYC (and I am sure, in every major city) there are different scenes within the larger jazz scene and community of musicians. You have the be-boppers, the fusion guys, the "out" guys and, believe it or not, a vibrant retro swing scene; with guys like Peplowski and Vignola who specialize in the traditional swing repertoire. Of course, some of the players "cross-over" with various levels of success. FYI, Vignola is considered THE swing guitarist on the scene right now. He has his niche (as does Peplowski) and is most certainly a jazz player who is hugely respected by his peers.

I think one of the tricky issues with these discussions is that we tend to judge a player's ability, at least in part, by the player's visibility to the general music-loving public. Of course, a genre (swing) that is not the most popular at any given time reduces greatly that visibility of these players. That unfortunate reality does not, in any way, diminish their clout as players. Many of these guys are extremely dedicated to a particular style of jazz, no matter how unpopular or superseded by other styles it may be; and their command and understanding of the style and it's musical vocabulary is far superior than it often is to higher-profile players who may be considered "hipper" by the general public. Of special note is the fact that it is these "hip (per?)" musicians themselves who most respect and sometimes revere the niche players.