Jazz for aficionados

Frogman, I don't believe you gave the music a critical listen; consequently you gave a "wrong" answer, and now you're locked into your wrong answer. Yes, subjective opinion can make a difference, but sometimes there is "objective" reality.

Anybody else, I would let it slide, because they are not capable of making an "objective" evaluation of the music, but you are.

You even stated why the "Town Hall" is better;

  " On the other hand, the solos by both Bird and Dizzy on the version with Al Haig are incredible. Bird’s solo break is a wonder. Tough choice, aren’t we lucky?"

What could be more important than those two solos?


You win Frogman, on to the next thing.

frog, many thanks for that sax demo. Even as a non-musician and through my iMac speakers I could hear differences.

I found the Buesher to have a little more body (dimensionality, air passing through a cylindrical tube) and slightly mellower tonality. The Grafton sounded brighter and "flatter". However, to me they were not big differences and I wouldn’t say I could always identify one versus the other on a given recording (with no back-and-forth for comparison).

What did Ornette play?

O-10, you couldn’t be more mistakenI certainly gave the music a critical listen; otherwise I would not have made the comments that I made. I have no interest in “winning”. More importantly, I can’t accept your hollow “concession”; concession that I am not looking for nor interested in. It is not I that is “locked in a wrong answer”, it is you. I don’t have a problem with your answer, why do you have a problem with mine? Like I said, it’s not a matter of better or worse; it’s about preferences based on what one considers the most important criteria in a performance. You think that the quality of the solos is the most important thing in a performance. I, and musicians in general, would strongly disagree with that concept and would consider that outlook uninformed and rather sophomoric. Sorry to be so blunt, but you take these discussions to an unpleasant place.

**** What could be more important than those two solos? ****

A “performance” is comprised of many elements; the soloing is just one of them. I already stated that the solos in your clip, particularly Bird’s, are extraordinary. But, that’s not to say the solos on the Massey Hall version are not excellent as well. Moreover, there is a certain logic in the continuity of the soloing in the Massey version that serves the overall performance better than the other version; and on balance, I think the Massey performance is a more balanced one. Better feel from the rhythm section not to mention better and more balanced recorded sound; as well as excellent, if arguably not as fiery soloing. Those things make it a better performance for me.

**** Anybody else, I would let it slide, because they are not capable of making an "objective" evaluation of the music, ****

I beg to differ on that one too and I would be careful about underestimating other posters’ ability to judge for themselves.

pryso, excellent observations re the two saxophones; I concur with your observations. I think the even larger point is that in the hands of a player with the ability of Charlie Parker the differences would be insignificant and not a significant impediment to full expression. In answer to your question re Ornette, like most players they used different instruments at various points in their career and Ornette did, in fact, also use the Grafton white acrylic saxophone as well as more conventional metal instruments. Since we are concerning ourselves with players’ equipment it is important to note that more important than the instrument (assuming that the instruments are all of high quality) is the mouthpiece. The differences in sound between mouthpieces, and the sound that they allow the player to “shape”, is hugely greater than between saxophones of different brands or material used in their construction.

btw, as just one of the many paralells to audiophilia, the mouthpiece is closest to “the source”, and just like the quality or inherent sound of a CD player, phono cartridge or turntable, it will have the biggest impact on the final sound.

I think Charlie Parker could maintain a great tone with a Kazoo.

Ornette never really seemed to care about tone. What he was about was emotional impact of notes.