Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
audionuttoo,

First of all, remember that we have all been born with the world’s best and most sensitive listening devices ever conceived - our own ears!


That’s clearly wrong, and it should be obvious why it’s so wrong.
We are building instruments all the time for detection because of the LIMITATIONS of our perception and senses.

For instance: You know there is sound in a frequency range called "Ultrasonic," right? Do you know why it’s even called "Ultrasonic?"
Because you can’t hear it.

Your ears, if you have fantastic hearing, would top off at approximately 20K. But depending on your age and exposure to noise, it likely caps well below that point.

But you can buy, or even build an SPL meter that is FAR more sensitive and can detect frequencies up to 100K, e.g:

http://logosfoundation.org/elektron/US_SPL_Meter/US_SPL_Meter.html

And when scientists detected the "sound" of black holes emerging far away in the universe...do you think it’s because someone woke up hearing it? Of course not. Instruments vastly more sensitive were used to detect these, and countless other phenomena that our limited hearing permits.

So right off the bat, you are starting with a false premise.

Trust them - they are the one truth in music!


(Putting aside the inscrutable second phrase...)

Your ears are part of a perceptual system; that system can and often enough does get things wrong. Just like your eyes. This is well known and demonstrable.

At this very moment there is a viral meme going around the internet showing how people’s audible perception varies. Google "yanny vs laurel." Also look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbzL9PxtFf0

And then there are all the well documented cases of perceptual bias that will cause you to "hear" things that aren’t there, or perceive changes in sound when there is no external cause.

So you are off with TWO fallacious assumptions.

Pretty intuitive right? How do I know this works? My ears told me so!


Whoops. Intuitions are often unreliable. In fact much of the fallacious explanations for natural phenomena through history was based on erroneous extrapolations from "intuition." (In fact, right now the Flat Earth Society is based on just that: it’s intuitively obvious the world is flat...forget any contradictory scientific evidence against this! Intuition is the most reliable thing we have!)

  • Those who have not heard it have no basis to criticize it.

Drat. Another fallacy.

One can have sufficient reasons to doubt a claim without having direct experience. If I tell you the moon is made of cheese, do you have to have traveled to the moon in order to marshal reasonable doubts about my claim?

Similarly, if someone is presenting a claim that is laced with naive understandings of human perception, that already raises doubt about the claim (even if it’s not conclusive against the claim).

You are not actually making a good case for your claims.

That said, although you have laced your post with some faulty ideas, I did not get enough detail from your post as to what you were actually adjusting. It could still be the case you were adjusting something that could plausibly alter the sound, in a way you found desirable.
And that could be really cool.

But we shouldn’t have to buoy our claims with fallacious ideas about the reliability of our perception.



I don’t see how we can put Michael Green into the same category as Roger Paul.
As a result of the aforementioned thread where Roger went back and forth with several folks here, claiming to have created an amplifier exponentially better and different from anything else available, and ready to ascend to unquestionable supremacy I offered to pay him a visit to assess his claim. This past November, I spent a half day with Roger, allowing him to demo his amplifier for me. Without going into detail in this post, I predict the next 10 years for Roger will look like the past 10 to 20.

Likewise, I would neither lump Michael Green in with a self-proclaimed industry insider / expert and sage without peer on every technology directly or indirectly related to audio offering nothing beyond 24 / 7 Audiogon insulting postings and re-marketed household items infused with whatever required shamanism that renders them crucial in a HEA system without explanation.

No, Michael Green has developed, manufactured, and marketed actual products, and sold hundreds of thousands or more of them that even the most dyed in the wool objectivist would consider logical and effective. You can find his products in all manner of settings outside the lunatic fringe HEA circles. Not that he has a corner on the market or anything like it, as every recording studio, auditorium, movie theater, etc. uses acoustic room treatment.

As for myself, after remodeling my second system’s room including removing the fabric wallpaper about 15 years ago, I noticed the now exposed hard walls became a dominant factor in the sound, and precluded hearing the effects of many of the component upgrades and changes I made. This is why when folks tell me they tried component X in their system, and heard no difference, I believe them, as I found myself in that very place.

Over time, I noticed many friends and local dealers using Michael Green RoomTunes, and it occurred to me I might find benefit in them. Now in all honesty, I didn’t find the $200 - $400 price particularly friendly at that juncture of my life. I also felt I could implement a better version due not feeling the covering would adequately absorb (maybe the intent is reflection as opposed to absorption) and their overall (1/2"?) thinness. From my experience with Fried Transmission Line loading, long hair carded wool was considered to have the best acoustic properties of the most commonly used (foam, fiberglass, polyester batting) materials, and seeing that natural (not a synthetic fiber) burlap held a night and day advantage in terms of fabric open area seemed to offer the best container I could think of at the time for the stuffing. With about $30 in material and a couple of hours of my oldest daughter’s sewing , I had my own 3" - 4" versions in the room’s corners and also above them where they met the ceiling. Upon installing them in the room, and listening, the acoustic treatment provided me with an extremely low-cost, attractive, and effective solution. And with that, my thanks and respect to Michael Green
audionuttoo
I’m not posting as a response to anyone, just adding my own 2 cents. First of all, remember that we have all been born with the world’s best and most sensitive listening devices ever conceived - our own ears! Trust them - they are the one truth in music! I have experienced the tunable room in person, at Bill333’s place, and know that it works. I was left alone with the tuning wrench and allowed to experiment and make adjustments to my liking. It became obvious very quickly that the adjustments were very intuitive and easy to learn. I was able to turn a small and constricted sound stage into a large open and expansive one that extended in all directions around me! Then I was able to bring it back to points in between and eventually back to where I started simply by adjusting the tension on the panels. Less tension allowed the panels to vibrate more, extending the sound stage. More tension = less vibration = smaller sound stage. Pretty intuitive right? How do I know this works? My ears told me so! Tuning works my droogies! And while not all tuning is as intuitive as this, the idea of loosening things to allow them to vibrate more and increase the size of the sound stage always does work! How do I know this? My ears tell me so! Those who have not heard it have no basis to criticize it. Those who have not should try it. Those who have will know it works if they listen to the music with their own sensitive listening devices - their ears!


>>>>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. The conclusion that “vibration is good” might very well be incorrect and lead to “over generalizations” that are false. The loosely of screws may actually be explained by reducing the physical stress produced when the screws are tight. The same idea applies to transformers that are generally bolted down tightly and capacitors that are constrained with tight cable ties. Reducing stress improves the sound. Voila! But the general conclusion that vibration is good is probably overreaching. One over generalization that is false is vibration is good. And that leads to another over generalization that is also false - isolation is bad. 😬
Two behavioralists meet on a corner. The first one says to the second one:
"You’re okay. How am I?"

Is that what all of this is boiling down to? 🤔
Somewhere in the archives of my history here at A’gon I said basically the reason there is ZERO scientific testing regarding audio reproduction products is a conspiracy between HEA manufacturers & the established media to perpetuate the myth of performance = $$$!
That is why empirical testing of audio products in the mainstream died with Julian Hirsch...