Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
prof,

I may want to do a blind test for fun and to get more confidence in the result. But I may also not bother and think "Well, seems I heard enough difference, liked it, I’ll keep it in the system."
This is called level-headed mature approach. At least, I would like to think that it is as it is exactly the way I do things.
glupson,

One last bit.

You talked about the idea that confronting dubious high end audio claims, in public, is essentially a losing proposition.

I disagree.

I think it's always valuable to present, and defend if necessary, an alternative view.  Insofar as skepticism about a claim has good grounds, then this can be important and useful input for other people.  Yes, many people may have taken a stance on something, having dug in their heels or having sunk costs in terms of a business.

But there are always a lot of people watching as well who can be informed.

My own views were heavily influenced early on by debates (and not only in high end audio).  So I paid attention to the quality of arguments when "objectivists" used to square off with "subjectivists" over various high end audio claims.   And I'm very happy I did.  I feel I've saved quite a bit of money, and time, and neuroticism, by concluding (even if tentatively until better evidence comes along) that many high end tweaks aren't worth my money and time.  And my own experience using blind testing has helped me here and there.

So for instance, just recently I demoed a pair of speakers.  The proprietor of the store, a nice, amiable gentleman, was a truly "classic audiophile" in terms of his thinking on many issues.  I needed to bring CDs, not a drive or thumb drive of burned music, because, well "we just aren't there yet with ripping music to drives and streaming.  It's just not doing any nice pair of speakers justice to play such sources."
And he had a super expensive CD transport and DAC, expensive interconnects, speaker cables, he "de-magnatized" all my CDs so they would sound better, used special damper on the CDs...you name it, he checked the "everything makes a difference" box (including talk of ethernet cables).

Now, none of this made any impression on me because...I've been there, done that, I understand the quality of evidence he is basing his beliefs upon.

And, wouldn't you know it, despite ALL of that talk, all of the steps he went through - INCREDIBLY expensive steps - to ensure the best sound possible...what I heard didn't really hold a candle to what I hear back home on my system. I have basic interconnects, basic beldon speaker cable, my CDs ripped to a cheap little usb drive streamed via a cheap raspberry pi sever.  And when I played back the same tracks at home, I heard every damned bit of "reverb trails" and "tonal purity" in my system (in fact, better, because it's a better speaker and better room acoustics).

IF I were some susceptible newbie, a salesman like that could - completely honestly from his own point of view - persuade me to spend ungodly sums of money on the steps and tweaks he believes necessary to get good digital sound.    I am very happy to be informed enough to realize I don't need to follow in his footsteps.

A lot of audiophiles have often commented "I don't WANT X to make a difference, but my ears tell me it does, which is why I spend the money and effort on it."  (For instance, AC cables or other tweaks).  I've heard that so many times, as if wanting it not to make a difference means, if they "heard" a difference it must be real.  And that's a naive understanding of how our perception works.  

But for anyone who thinks like this, if they are spending, or about to spend lots of time and money on a tweak,  I'd expect they would actually want to know if that tweak actually alters the sound of the system, in reality.   If someone really would rather not spend money on a false claim, then seeing the case for being skeptical can be quite enlightening or useful.

If you for instance take a look at the length many of the Michael Green "Tuners" go to, it's really quite something to behold.  Components taken apart, strewn between speakers, everything carefully arrange on special wood blocks etc.  Now, If that's what someone gets a kick out of doing...I would never want to say "don't do it."  Hey, everyone likes to have a hobby.

BUT...for anyone who really cares about not wasting their time and money on something that is only in their imagination - and I tend to doubt that many would choose to have the rather unsightly splaying of components and wires in their room if they didn't think it was improving their sound -  for those people seeing a skeptical case presented that they may be doing just that, can actually be beneficial.

But, one's subjective experience is something most people find really hard to question.  And when you combine the strength of the subjective "this makes a great difference!" with the various levels of satisfaction people get from tweaking their system, there's often not a lot of motivation to challenge their own beliefs.


glupson
geoffkait,

You especially can’t please the folks who don’t actually use tweaks and who don’t really care.
It may be, at least partially, due to the fact that those who do not use tweaks and do not care are already content which translates into pleased. No need to try hard to please them, they are just fine.

I see. You mean like contented cows? 🐄 you must be here strictly for the abuse. 😬
geoffkait,

I will admit that I was deciding if to post that last thing or not and then I decided to do it just to see what you will come up with as a response. Yawn. I did not expect it would lead to any kind of discussion. I was hoping for something more innovative. Could you do us all a favor, when being predictable at least keep it interesting and do not forget some manners. Your last post was missing either.
Gk if I may be so bold, you should consider upgrading to the Grado sr8Oe from your sr60e to go with the super tweaked Walkman.   The extra $20 probably won't kill you.  Don't be a cheapskate!  I have a pair of sr80e.  They are a great audio bargain for sure.