First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions


"The game is done! I’ve won! I’ve won!"


I would like to use this thread to talk about this subject which I find rather fascinating and somewhat difficult to get my hands on. I went through a course in electromagnetism in college and I have to say this is even more confusing and you won’t find the answer in calculus, physics, Einstein relativity be damned it’s not in there either and definitely not in quantum physics. Listening to the "experts" from Vandersteens and Stereophile but ultimately it all came down to a missing link sort of argument ... something like this:
"Since if a speaker can produce a step response correctly, therefore it is time-phase coherent, and therefore it must be "good".

It’s like saying humans come from chimps since they share 90% genetic content with us, but we can’t find any missing links or evidence. FYI, we share a lot of gene with the corn plants as well. Another argument I’ve heard from John Atkinson that lacks any supporting evidence and he said that if everything else being equal, time-phase coherence tends to produce a more coherent and superior soundstage, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to produce some semblance of evidence since there is no way to compare apples to apples. Speaker "A" may have better soundstage simply because it’s a BETTER design, and the claim "time-phase coherent" is just a red herring. There’s no way one can say the "goodness" from "time-phase coherence" because you can’t compare apples to apples. Ultimately it’s a subjective quantification.

I’ve been doing some simulation and I will post some of my findings with graphs, plots, actual simulation runs so that we are discussing on subjective personal opinions. Some of my findings actually shows that intentionally making time-phase may result in inferior phase problem and NOT better! (will be discussed more in detail).

Having said all that, I am actually in favor of first order/time-phase coherent if POSSIBLE. I am not in favor of time-phase coherence just for the sake of it. It’s just that there are a lot of mis-information out there that hopefully this will clear those out. Well hopefully ...

Here my preliminary outline:

1. My "subjective" impression of what is "musicality" and how it’s related to first order filters.
2. Interpretation of step-response. I’ve read a lot of online writing with regard to the interpretations but I think a lot of them are wrong. A proper interpretation is presented with graphs and simulations.
3. A simulation of an 1st order and higher order filters with ideal drivers and why time-phase coherence is only possible with 1st order filter. This part will use ideal drivers. The next part will use real world drivers.
4. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Discuss pros and cons. And why time-phase coherence may actually have phase issues.
5. Discuss real world examples of time-phase coherence with Thiel’s and Vandersteens speakers (and why I suspect they may not ultimately be time-phase coherent in the strictest sense).
6. I’ll think of something real to say here ... :-)
andy2
He started it. I think he intentionally tried to piss me off so I’d give him some bread :-) Hey self defense and gun ownership are still alive and well.
Well, I suppose I'm tired already of the ramblings of an 'educated' man who can't think his way back down to earth long enough to answer his own question...ya got me there I guess. 

My hat's off to you, if you can fly as high on yourself as you claim to and still not know how to fix your problem.

I'd say your first blow up in your thread 'started' it, you just snowballed from there.
...and I'm now quite happy to be on the other side of the country... *G*

Anyway...calm down, stay on topic....

I came back 'cuz you started a topic that got my interest, and that of others.  I/we don't mean to make you feel attacked, far from it.  Phase issues, which you yourself stated earlier are complicated.  

Resorting to 'quantum states' ain't gonna help us typical audioholics, no.
I'll return to my last aside that active xovers may cure the bulk of the issues.  Give the drivers what they Need 'upfront', so to speak.

Yes, it requires bi-, tri-, or whatever amping quantities required...
....but it sure works in my space....

Just saying....

Don't shoot. ...please?
Most of the better systems I've been around are such.  It makes sense to cope with the signal on a lower level before adding 'power'.  Better and more discrete control without having to cope with high drive levels.

The same holds for active eq; I can 'adjust' for my space, even with omnis.  I can 'ignore the room' so to speak, since I'm in the midst of it.

I know I'm ignoring most of the past posts...but I'd rather cut to the chase.
MHO.....and please, 'humble' is the word of the day....well, this evening here. *G*