Kenjit,
It's also your ability to hold simultaneously opposite positions on a subject matter which we all remember.
It's also your ability to hold simultaneously opposite positions on a subject matter which we all remember.
Subwoofers and Phase Question For You Sub Experts
I use a pair of Dunlavy SC-3 speakers, known for their time/phase coherent crossover design.
When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.
Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.
Which brings me to the questions -
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?
2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?
I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.
Thanks
Rooze
When the stars align the speakers completely disappear and there’s a sense of space and 3 dimensionality that I’ve heard from few other speakers/systems. It’s easy to destroy the illusion with things like poor placement, poor setup of room treatments, etc.
Adding subs to the setup is both a blessing and a curse. The Dunlavy’s need some support in the nether regions and a pair of HSU subs do add a solid foundation to music which enhances the overall presentation; however, it’s at the expense of some stage depth, width and image dimensionality. Placing the subs a few inches forward of the front plane of the speakers helps a little but that isn’t where they perform at their best as ‘subwoofers’.
Finding optimal room positions for bass augmentation always creates a clash with the phase aspect of integration resulting in the diminished soundstage described above.
Playing with phase settings has little impact on the problem since there’s just a toggle for 0 and 180.
Which brings me to the questions -
1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether?
2/ Looking at subs such as the JL Audio F series with auto room calibration, does the EQ algorithm compensate for any time/phase anomaly or is it simply looking for a more linear bass response?
I don’t mind investing in more sophisticated subs so long as I don’t end up with the same problem. I’m not really inclined to mess with software and the like, unless there’s no other way.
Thanks
Rooze
- ...
- 103 posts total
Hey Kenjit:
Post your link. Like any other project, plenty of discussions. By the way Kenjit, unlike you, I’ve posted my entire design. You keep asking me questions about it, and claim your own are far superior, with zero data to back them up. Here's the discussion on the SNR-1 https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/316511-snr-1-mundorf-scanspeak-2-a.html |
millercarbon2,336 posts12-29-2019 10:38amEQ is a lame idea, DSP or otherwise. But no more lame than taking advice from a bunch of guys with absolutely zero idea what they’re talking about. Which is every single post so far!millercarbon, Which brands or types of DSP have you used to make such a sweeping generality?1/ How does running a swarm setup, with 4 subs, affect phase/time integration with the mains? Does it create twice or half the issue or remove it altogether? I’ve used four properly placed self powered subwoofers and after adjusting their basic crossover and gain then saving those settings to memory, they did eliminate my rooms modes. Using one of the DSP calibration equipped subs as a master the room measurements clearly showed that time, phase, and frequency issues, in my room still needed to be addressed. Comparing the memory of the original non-EQd version to the EQd the improvement in the crossover region alone was quite dramatic. I’m not doubting anybody’s feeling of success and satisfaction with their setup, better bass of any type can be a sea-change improvement in this hobby and I share in that enthusiasm. I also share in Eric’s suggestion of using competent DSP for the subwoofer region only. Depending on the room, any user may find one or two subs can substantially reduce their rooms modes and satisfy their low frequency tastes. Four or more subwoofers in a room can eliminate a rooms modes and may seem like a panacea but its only one aspect of integrating extra low frequency with a system and the room. Variable multi-band parametric equalization, filtering, Q settings etc., can make for a far more desirable level of crossover integration and personalization that the OP seems to be seeking. I found the JL Audio F series very well made and very potent for their size. If I remember correctly the majority of their ARO/DARO equalization adjustments are Automatic Room Optimization only and may have led to their developing a manual solution with their companion CR-1. Comparing DSP procedures is very important. |
I have a large room which requires large subs. I have had 2 SVS powered subs for around 10 years that I futilely attempted to integrate. The biggest issue is the carp adjustments on the power plates, starting with the volumes control that raise volume too high when barely turned up from zero. These at least have a sweep Phase which does allow for other than 0 or 180. I never had the negative sound stage experiences you mention, but could never get them to blend seamlessly, but when the Polarity/phase was out (on numerous discs), reversing the bass Phase/polarity solved the problem, no matter which main speakers. I had Magnepan 3.5Rs, Usher 6371s, and Emerald Physics KCIIs. Most likely an expensive active XO is needed, but my system is all diff balanced, which makes active XO in the price range of new speakers I am attempting to eliminate the integration problems by replacing the KC IIs 10" woofers and eliminating the subs with EP 2.8s as each speaker has 2 @ 15" carbon fiber woofers. should they ever show up. They ave a few pair of these $10K speakers available for 50% off including shipping hth |
Erik, what you dont seem to understand is i have ultra perfect high standards. I have heard many high end speakers, and they sound dreadful. How do you explain this? I see and hear problems that seem to elude experts like you. Why is that? Your speakers are nothing more than box speakers. They are equivalent to every other box speaker both in their strengths and weaknesses. The differences that do exist between your speakers and every other box speaker, are immaterial. |
- 103 posts total