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Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?

Tube virgin, here. I am building a system and I'm trying to contain the preamp/amp cost to $3k or so. (I could go up a little.) 

I'm inclined not to dive into tubes all the way through, but get a solid state on the output end. (Open to suggestions; inclined toward PS Audio, Parasound.) I'm reading around about tube preamps and have talked with my local dealer, who sells Black Ice/Jolida and Prima Luna (PL). He used to carry Rogue but said they kept coming back for repairs. That's why he carries PL.

I'm asking these questions after having established (via reviews, comments) that Schiit gear is quite the value. Lately, I've been reading about Decware and other small tube makers. I'm very curious about buying direct, if possible, and a company that stands behind their products is crucial.

So, your opinions about tube integrated or *especially* tube preamps —

1. Who do you like? Consider I want to do pre/amp for a total of $3k if possible.

2. Do you think PL is worth all that money just for a preamp? I get the feeling they're high quality but a bit over-hyped. (No disrespect to the highly passionate Kevin Deal, but he's all over my search results.) And what would you think about $2k/$1k preamp-to-amp spending ratio?

3. Any sense of what happened to Jolida since the name change to "Black Ice"? I see there's a sordid story there but did the re-branding clear up the mess? Any experiences with the Black Ice company?

4. I know there are many Schiit fans out there; so my question would be -- did anyone consider Schiit for tube preamp and go another way? Or move beyond Schiit for any particular reason? It's hard not to just capitulate and do a Freya+ or Saga+ but why wouldn't one just go with Schiit?




128x128hilde45
mesch
3,527 posts
 
Hide45,  As a way to recap on all the great advise provided across your 3 threads, I propose that, regardless of budget, a sound (pun intended) approach would be:

1) Understand the desired sonic outcome. Experience needed here.

2) Understand the room and have some idea of how system is to be placed within. Part of this is consideration for room treatment. Room is part of the system.

3) Choose speakers that fit the room and desired sonic outcome.

4) Consider the sources to be used in the now, and possibly to be used in the future.

5) Choose amplifier to compliment the room speakers toward the  sonic outcome.

6) If not an integrated amplifier, choose a preamp that compliments the amplifier towards the sonic outcome and supplies the needed inputs/outputs.

7) Choose the source components.

All aspects, 1-6, and budget, should be thought through carefully,   prior to the 1st purchase.  Much of the desired outcome is dependent on 7.  

I understand that this approach is very idealistic, that most of us have constraints that must be complimented in the process, thus rearranging the hierarchy, and often increasing budget.

I advise avoiding the consideration of doubling budget to accommodate speakers without consideration of the system as a whole.


mesch
3,527 posts
 
@decooney  I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking  for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach. 

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn't going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn't using, I sold it.

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.
decooney
2,171 posts
 
@hilde45,
A few reasons some of us were noting the Pass INT-60, is you were:
-suggesting less efficient (84db) speakers, a bit more required to drive them.
-you seemed to be leaning back to solid state vs. tube amplification.
-uncertain about matching preamps (where this started); complexity.
-your suggestion of posible upgrade to larger Dyn speakers, later on.
-possibly wanting to future-proof your system, avoiding upgrades later.
-us knowing there are used 2nd hand INT-60s out there for decent deals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decide:
#1, Speakers: what speakers you’ll be using next 5 yrs, try to pin it down (changes a lot).
#2, Amps: decide if you like softer tube or SS sound (they are different).
#3, Budget: confirm if your original $3k limit is still a real goal or not (it matters, a lot). 

Sources:
Since you have not committed yet to working with any particular dealer, your options are wide open right now new or used. There are many good dealers who offer new/used. Yes, I agree with tvad, RenoHiFi is one source.

Fyi, you can achieve great sound close to your original $3k goal with (some new or 2nd hand) tube separates and integrateds out there. Several options exist. QS is a no brainer, super value, real tube sound (in your budget range). Now with SS, to achieve real "tube like sound", options are more limited and price goes up again, 2x of your $ goal. AND if you want something new, closer to new, with warranty. Few offer SS that sound closer to tube, already discussed. Pass is a no brainer. Firstwatt, offers less power - speaker matching is key there, as tvad said.

Agree, back to square one - figure out your speakers first, go from there.




decooney
2,171 posts
 
@mesch 1,987 posts
02-24-2020 6:45am@decooney I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach.

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn’t going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn’t using, I sold it.
-------------------

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.

Ah, yes, the allure of a 6SN7 based preamp. I sure like mine. :)  But, good 6SN7s are not cheap, as you know.

re: Hilde45 ("digital sources"), really good to know.
>>THIS<< reason alone is what drove me away from Solid State again back to an all tube based system again:
1) Ladder Tube DAC,
2) Tube Preamp,
3) Tube Amplification, +
4) Good 1960s vintage input/driver tubes
5) Great OCC copper interconnects (not silver)

All really helped my system, ridding of all digital grain, no more edge, nice and smooth and lush with absolutely no fatigue. Easy listening to lossless content, back to real music again :)
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,047 posts
 
@tvad I understand about Reno and I do *hear* you on that, and on First Watt and home additions; I’m trying to tease out what folks think are in at least a neighboring zone, quality wise.

@mesch Thanks for the great summation. I think I’m going to print that out and post it. Seriously. Cogent and instructive. I think I have done 1-4, though I have not done "treatments." I’m working on 5 in a "pre-thinking" way because choice of speakers (3) is still TBD. I am considering digital sources only.

@decooney You’ve got the path right about how we got here. I’m still leaning very much toward tubes, but the discussion of solid state lead to comments about how *good* solid state can sound and how well they can produce a musical result with low-sensitivity speakers. So, I’m working on 1 and 2; that’s why budget (3) is getting shoved around a bit — largely via comments about what it takes for really good solid state. I was pretty dogmatic (in earlier replies) to folks suggesting things way above my $3k pricepoint. But then folks (like you) weighed in about solid state, Pass Labs, etc. and it was clear that if I didn't budge my budget upwards, even used would be well beyond me. The Reno site has nothing at the 3k price point, even used, in power.

Thanks for your comments. Back to speakers.
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