Cables that measure the same but (seem?) to sound different


I have been having an extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.

In response, I have told him that while I am not an engineer or in audio, I have heard differences in wires while keeping the acoustic environment static. I have told him that Robert Harley, podcasters, YouTuber's such as Tarun, Duncan Hunter and Darren Myers, Hans Beekhuyzen, Paul McGowan have all testified to extensive listening experiments where differences were palpable. My interlocutor has said that either it is the placebo effect, they're shilling for gear or clicks, or they're just deluded.

I've also pointed out that to understand listening experience, we need more than a few measurement; we also need to understand the physiology and psychological of perceptual experience, as well as the interpretation involved. Until those elements are well understood, we cannot even know what, exactly, to measure for. I've also pointed out that for this many people to be shills or delusionaries is a remote chance at best.

QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
128x128hilde45
As @snilf states above, "Science gets better and better at identifying, describing and quantifying what is universally subjective, and so, in principle the audible differences between interconnects must be 'measurable,' even if not yet, if they exist at all. But those still hypothetical measurements no more guarantee an agreement in preference than would a comparative chemical analysis of Chateau Mouton-Rothchild and Chateau Lafite-Rothchild."

I agree that most of the differences we hear between cables should be measurable at some point in the future, but we are not there yet. At present, we can measure some things about a cable (e.g., frequency response, resistance, capacitance, etc.), but we don't usually have a clear handle on whether anything we measured actually accounts for differences we hear between specific cables. And even when we hear a difference, it's not a given that there will be agreement about which cable is preferred. 

If you haven't actually read the AES publication I mentioned earlier in this thread, you might still want to take a look at it. It's a paper by Milind Kunchur from the U. of South Carolina entitled "Cable pathways between audio components can affect perceived sound quality." It was published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society in June. The study included double-blind listening trials comparing two interconnects: a balanced Straight-Wire Virtuoso and a single-ended Monster-Cable Interlink 400. After identifying significant methodological problems with the traditional "short-segment comparisons" of the ABX paradigm, the author developed and implemented an "extended multiple pass" paradigm that is actually a lot closer to what a person experiences when listening to music. (Please read the paper for more details.)

A group of 18 college students participated in the study, and these students completed a total of 59 double-blind listening trials. 43 of these 59 trials were judged correctly; the probability of this result being due to chance was p<.0005. When frequency response was measured, both cables varied by less than +/- 0.005 dB over the range of 16 Hz to 22 kHz. Resistive losses were too small to be considered important. However, the noise levels measured in the StraightWire cable were significantly lower than in the Monster cable.

The author concludes that two system configurations differing only by the interconnect pathway are audibly discernible, even by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio. The study did not complete an exhaustive exploration of all possible factors that might contribute to sonic differences between interconnects. However, electrical measurements did suggest that noise might be one factor affecting sonic performance. The author also noted, "The measurements also show that characteristics such as resistance and frequency response, that naive consumers may focus on, are irrelevant for distinguishing HEA ("High End Audio") interconnect cables."
@snilf Yes, we'll leave Wittgenstein aside for now (until someone accidentally yells 'slab.') I'm a pragmatist by training, so the Kantian account of subjectivism is helpful for me, but only to a point. (Another topic to run off the road, here.)

@sdl4 Most most most! appreciative of that link, which I've not had time to look at yet.
re: opposing thoughts by others. @hilde45
"After all the attempted measuring is exhausted, save your money safe in the knowledge that there are no cables worth the money you would have spent because there are no differences to be heard. Realize how good it is to know that there was nothing there and that it’s better to hear differences where they really exist then to hear them where they do not exist."


That’s one way to look at it and a great way to save money if that’s the objective. Hey, if someone can’t hear a difference, or not willing to try and compare first hand, nothing ventured nothing gained. The loaner program at TheCableCo is another way of trying before buying, and deciding.  
@decooney  We agree, above all, that we're willing to try things first before ruling them out. It's one thing to be a realist about how much one has to spend and say, "Can't go the cable route because it would compromise other more important things." It's another thing to suppose a difference cannot, in principle, be heard in order to save oneself the cheddar. As they say in poker games, "Put up or shut up."
Emotions being so fleeting and ethereal, their accurate measurement seems unlikely in my lifetime. We attempt the impossible all the time: Greeting cards, gifts, law suits, acting graciously toward others. Meanwhile, I try to enumerate things with 1 to 10 on the doctor’s pain chart. . . . 1 to 5 stars on Amazon. . . counting sniffles at sad movies. It should be safe to suggest that audiophiles who are NOT experiencing emotional moments in their music should try a cable change or a hobby change. If you can’t hear a difference, where’s the hobby?