Free air resonance


Hello all,

Is a speaker with a free air resonance of 25 hz meaningfully different from one with a free air resonance of 38 hz?

Specifically: is the one at 25 hz low enough to be in a sealed enclosure, as opposed to the one at 38 hz which most likely/definitely should be in a ported enclosure? And why?

Thank you in advance …

128x128unreceivedogma

@mijostyn @erik_squires

 

Thank you both, bunches. I’m learning a lot already.

Eric, the room is semi-anechoic, not anechoic. The floor would have to be treated as well, which it most certainly is not.

In my last home, I did the room this way and it worked very well. The room doubled as a library, and as I added books to the walls, the room became brighter: the books were the way to control room acoustics.

I started out building my own Dyna 70 and Dyna PAS when I was 14 years old, but since then I’ve otherwise never given too much technical thought to how to design a better system other than to substitute new components.

I’ve had the components I have now for 30 years on average, and with the new home (the wife and I leave this home feet first only: I came close 8 weeks ago, I got double bypass surgery after the discovery of a completely blocked Widowmaker, 😂. The surgeon says that after I complete recovery, I will be better than new! 🙂) and new listening room, and with my amp engineer who has worked on many home audio systems saying that he has heard only one other system that sounds as good as this one, I’m not gonna change the components, my thoughts have turned to how to get more out of what I have, so that means returning to thinking more about the science of these things. The weakness of the Altecs and of the Futtermans are convincing extension at the bottom. They are really good right now, don’t get me wrong but something does nag at me in this area. The cabinets are solid for their day, but there is some resonance there. They do allow for port size adjustments, but it’s just unscrewing a block of wood and sliding it up or down! Maybe painting the interior with a material that will stiffen the walls? I don’t know, and then it has to be reversible because what if it doesn’t work. A friend built beautiful new cabs for his Tannoys but he is top shelf carpenter, works for Broadway, I can’t afford him.

Maybe I need to change the subwoofer. But I don’t want to spend a lot of money either. The current sub crosses at 70. And maybe I just never found the right spot for that sub. In the new room, there will be lots of room to fool with placement.

configuration is

Cartridge: Koetsu Onyx

Tonearm: Sumiko MMT

Table: VPI HW MK IV with SAM

Step-Up Transformer: SHURE A86A

Preamp: Beard P505

Phase Alignment: BBE282ri sonic maximizer

Subwoofer: Velodyne ULD-15

Amps: Julius Futterman OTL3s, converted to triode by Jon Specter

Crossovers: Mastering Lab

Speakers: Altec Lansing 604C coaxial studio monitors

Semi-anechoic room design and treatment: by architect C.B. Wayne

cables: whatever

https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about


Oh, and as for rock wool, it is used in a lot of commercial and audio acoustic panels. I use it to insulate my home because

- it’s the best thermal barrier

- it’s far and away the most fire resistant. Fiberglass, fire-resistant cellulose, etc burns by the time you hit 375 degrees This stuff doesn’t melt until you hit 2,000 degrees. An important consideration in historic buildings, of which all the buildings we have restored to date are

- it has excellent sound absorbing properties

My architect had done a few recording studios. He said that in my audio room, don’t sheet rock the walls Just cover the rock wool with burlap and then I will have the equivalent of a high quality recording studio for 1/20 of the cost, for the amount I was spending to make the thermal barrier anyway. Safe health wise also.

 

I don’t like using headphones  

Thank you again.

@unreceivedogma , AHH the Duplex. I was thinking Voice of the Theater. Nice trick with the burlap. Yes, I think a rug would be in order.  I beat you by one year. I built my ST 70 and PAS 3X when I was 13. A friends father gave me a pair of AR 2ax's which he used at a party and wanted to get rid of. He owned an electronics firm in Boston. 

Your woofer crosses to the horn at 2 kHz and cuts off at 60 Hz. I can not find the T-S parameters for the 604a,b or c. I would treat it like a Bozac woofer with a large sealed enclosure on the order of 8 cubic feet. They are crying for custom enclosures. IMHO you need two subwoofers one next to each main speaker crossing as high as possible to get the low bass out of the Duplexes. It will make the Duplexes so much cleaner. I have never heard the Futtermans but I use triode OTLs and I bet they are a great match for the Duplexes. They are another reason though to take the low bass somewhere else. Are you high passing the Duplexes now? You mentioned custom crossovers. 

@mijostyn

- there will be three Moroccan rugs. 🙂

- I use Doug Sax’s Mastering Lab crossovers. http://www.rintelen.ch/download/604xover_SP.pdf I had Jon Specter replace all the caps with Jensen audio grade caps

- as for the current enclosures, they ARE custom DIY enclosures, built to Altec specs of the 1960s. https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/altec-lansing/620a.shtml I think there is room for improvement, but I don’t (yet) know the first thing about it, engineering-wise.

- Altec claims that the 604C and D go down to 30HZ

- As for the Velodyne UHL15, it seems to crossover at 85HZ, see https://www.stereophile.com/content/velodyne-uld-18-amp-uld-15-subwoofers-specifications and https://www.manualslib.com/manual/533050/Velodyne-Uld-15.html?page=10#manual I don’t know that it can be adjusted to 100.

- T-S parameters?

- I had Lafayette speakers to go with the Dyna. I couldn’t afford AR speakers.

 

see what J Frum says here:

https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/embiggening-the-altec-620-thoughts-experiences-with-9-cu-ft-cabs-for-altec-604-8g.7649/
 

Y’all need to get religion with regard to enclosure simulation. With T/S parameters, modeling a basic bass-reflex cabinet is easy and accurate. It’s a brave new world.

You’ll learn all about the delicate balancing act between the driver’s electromechanical properties, enclosure volume, and tuning. It’s a lot more complicated than “bigger = better”, and you’ll see the effect changes have on frequency response, power handling, and group delay.

I’ve modeled the 604-8G every which-way, and I can’t come up with anything that’s better overall than a 9 cu. ft. cabinet tuned to about 40 Hz. - essentially, a 620.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: It’s almost like those Altec engineers knew what they were doing.

@unreceivedogma 

I could not afford them either. Just happened to be at the right place and time.

I read an Altec spec sheet on the Duplex and the 3dB down point was 60 hz which would be about right for a woofer of that type of construction. 

T-S parameters (Thiele/Small) are a set of parameters that define a driver's electromechanical behavior. From them you can calculate the volume of the enclosure you need to obtain a given type of performance. They help getting you in the ballpark when designing a loudspeaker.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters

In order for me to get a handle on your enclosures I need the interior dimensions and the material they are made of such as 3/4" plywood or 1" MDF. The type of enclosure, sealed or ported and the dimensions of the port or ports. In today's world of loudspeakers, with the advent of DSP you can get away with murder. I design and build my own subwoofers and rely on digital signal processing to get them under 20 hz at + 6 dB. I am about to shoot the finish on my new ones and will publish pictures of the entire process on Imgur when I am finished. The best way to handle subwoofers is with digital bass management which is antithetical to the type of system you have or rather the type of attitude you have. It certainly is more of a challenge and I understand the attraction. You can push the envelope a lot further. You can high pass your  Duplexes by putting the right value capacitor in series with the input of your amps. You have to know the input impedance to calculate the value. Then low pass the sub with the filter it has, the highest it will go without calling attention to itself. With two subs I would definitely plug the ports but I have to warn you that I really dislike ported speakers. I would rather push the speaker down with digital bass management and use subwoofers designed specifically to make low bass. What you have in the Duplex woofer is really a very large midrange driver. Middle C is 254 Hz. In it's day it was a very fine driver and still is. Back then subwoofers were nonexistent.  

 

@mijostyn 

 

"....In order for me to get a handle on your enclosures I need the interior dimensions and the material they are made of such as 3/4" plywood or 1" MDF."

I am certain that they are plywood but I can tell you tomorrow. Altec specs from their brochure below: I will check to see if mine in actuality do match exactly.

 

SPECIFICATIONS

Type: Bass reflex enclosure

Dimensions:  40" (1 01 .6 em) H  26" (66.0 em) W  18" (45.7 em) D

Pressure Sensitivity: 100 dB SPL at 4' with ALTEC 604-8G loudspeaker when measured on axis with 1 watt input of band-limited pink noise from 100 to 10,000 Hz and calculated to 4' equivalent (Ref.: 0 dB == 0.0002 dyne/cm2)

Speaker Accommodations: 15", front-mounted

Internal Volume 9.0 cubic  ft

Weight: 104 pounds (47.2 kg), enclosure only

Finish: Hand-rubbed oil on rift-cut oak, charcoal brown grille cloth

Recommended ALTEC Speaker: 604-8G Duplex Loudspeaker

 

ARCHITECT'S AND ENGINEER'S SPECIFICATIONS

The speaker cabinet shall be the bass reflex type, and shall provide front mounting for 15" speakers only. The cabinet shall meet the following criteria. Grille assembly,snap-on. Grille cloth, charcoal brown. Internal volume, 9.0 fe. Dimensions, 40" H x 26"W x 18"0. Weight, 104 pounds. Finish, hand-rubbed oil on rift-cut oak.

The speaker cabinet shall be the ALTEC Model 620A.