Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?


It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.”  And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything?  For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think. 
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is. 

chayro

So what we have is people standing up for individual choice and saying I don’t care about measurements, I’ll do it my way. Ok fine! That’s how it should be.

But then you have a guy who tries to scientifically measure things and that’s his way. He also has a website to publish the info and many choose to value that because they value science.

But now the guy who chooses science is chastised for doing it his way He can do more than most anyone in this area and collect technical data that can help people make decisions but the “libertarians” can’t handle THAT guy deciding for himself how to do things because they don’t like the way he does things. His different view especially if based on science makes him the enemy

This is a common phenomena that we witness everyday on the internet, talk shows etc. people expect the right for themselves to be free and do it their way but not the people they disagree with. That’s being a hypocrite with a capital H .

The fact is many who want freedom for themselves can’t handle when others who are different want the same freedom. They think they are right and other guy wrong so he becomes the enemy and must be stopped.

Take note. Hypocritical libertarians vilifying others with different values are everywhere. Politicians know this and take full advantage.

Just saying. Just having different values on how to value hifi gear is enough to get people triggered

Yes Amir believes in his way and tries to convince others he is right. But I don’t see any name calling, back handed personal insults or other personal slurs coming from him . Yes he thinks he is right and tries to validate his stance. Nothing wrong with that . You can also argue an eye for an eye, but the personal attacks appear to be one way. The unhappy libertarians attack armed with slurs, insults and no regard for misinformation.

It’s so sad and petty. Grow up people. We can all do better. Maybe be a true libertarian who value the freedom of all decent hard working people, not just themselves. Narcissism seems to come into play here and that is always bad for everyone else in the end.

Do you really “Know Your Enemy”? When the enemy is science we have a big big problem.

 

@soundfield 

Umm, where did I claim that? 

Well, pardon me.  Do tell: can an audiophile tell the difference between high-res and CD with identical masters?

Mapman you dont seems to realize that anybody with a brain can only welcome the measures set Amir gave and say thanks... No problem here...Because i have a brain i thank Amir ...For the 17th time...

But you seems to forget that Amir dont present them as only useful measures faisification and verification but as AUDIBLE TRUTH and more than that the ONLY AUDIBLE TRUTH , anything else being subjective illusions with no value ...

 

Thats the problem... A falsehood submitted as truth to promote an ideology and a site..

Just saying ...

So what we have is people standing up for individual choice and saying I don’t care about measurements, I’ll do it my way. Ok fine! That’s how it should be.

But then you have a guy who tries to scientifically measure things and that’s his way. He also has a website to publish the info and many choose to value that because they value metrics.

But now the guy who chooses metrics is chastised for doing it his way He can do more than most anyone in this area and collect technical data that can help people make decisions but the “libertarians” can’t handle THAT guy deciding for himself how to do things because they don’t like the way he does things. They’d like him to be silenced

This is a common phenomena that we witness everyday on the internet, talk shows etc. people want the right for themselves to be free and do it their way but not the people they disagree with. That’s being a hypocrite with a capital H .

The fact is many who want freedom for themselves can’t handle when others who are different want the same freedom. They think they are right and other guy wrong so he should be stopped.

Take note. Hypocritical libertarians are everywhere. Politicians know this and take full advantage.

Just saying.

Again, I’m thankful to rodman99999 for providing the longer quotes from Feynman

which serve so well to support the point I’d been making (as well as Amir).

Let’s take this section:

FEYNMAN: It’s a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty—a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you’re doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid—not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you’ve eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked—to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can—if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong—to explain it.

 

I think a nice example of how this can work is the infamous Opera Experiment that purported to detect faster-than-light neutrinos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_anomaly

The team of physicists upon finding the anomoly in their results knew how momentous it would be, and so they checked and double checked their findilngs looking for any way things could have gone wrong. They re-ran the experiment, getting the same results, and when months of doing everything they could to find errors was finished, the announced the results. However, being good scientists they understood the extraordinary nature of the results and presented it to other scientists saying basically "Look, we got these unexpected results. We’ve done everything we can to trace possible biases, influences or technical issues in our experiment...but we are presenting the results so you can double check our work, and hopefully replicate the results."

Various possible flaws were suggested, and then the Opera scientists later...just as Feynman would council - reported some possible flaws in their experiment they’d discovered. Further investigation confirmed the flaws and that combined with others failing to replicate the results, dis-confirmed the initial "discovery."

Just as science should work - for either disconfirmation or confirmation.

Along those lines, in a much more modest level, I’ve tried to hew to these general principles when I’ve wanted to be more sure or rigorous about my conclusions.

For example I was curious about my Benchmark SS preamp I’d just bought vs my CJ tube preamp, in which the sonic differences seemed pretty obvious. Well...most here would say "of course they’d be obvious."

However, having done a variety of blind testing over the years - AC cables, video cables, DACs/CDPs, music servers - I’m familiar with how "obvious" sonic differences can feel under the influence of sighted bias - e.g., when you know what it is you are listening to. I’ve had "obvious" sonic differences vanish when I wasn’t allowed to know which was which. It’s very educational.

It was entirely possible that I could be perceiving a sonic difference because of my perception being swayed by those wonderful "warm, glowing tubes...of course it’s going to sound different!"

So, again, as Feynman would advise: the first rule is not to fool yourself as you are the easiest person to fool. And since I know sighted bias is a big variable, I attempted a blind test to reduce the possibility of "fooling myself." I took various other steps to reduce "fooling myself" - ensuring there wasn’t a way I could tell which preamp was being switched to, ensuring the switching was randomized, trying to ensure the levels were matched so as to account for loudness bias, etc.

When I did my best...once again in concert with what Feynman would advise...I presented the results for other people to critique:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/blind-test-results-benchmark-la4-vs-conrad-johnson-tube-preamp.33571/

As Feynman advised, I made sure to add as much detail about my method as I could, INCLUDING areas where I thought flaws could arise. And then I answered every question, I could about my method, took some suggestions to double check certain aspects and looked at how others assessed the results.

It wasn’t a scientific-level of rigor, but I think it was in the spirit of the scientific mindset/approach in the sense of all the above.

So I think I get fairly close to walking-the-walk in such instances with some of my own testing.

I wonder if rodman or others can show any of their audio tests havea similar level of steps put in place to "not fool yourself" as well as presenting the results looking for others to critique?

This, btw, is also generally what Amir does. He presents his results with plenty of detail about his METHOD and RESULTS so there is plenty of information given on which people can critique the method or results. It's not just "I put this in my system and I heard X, trust me!"  It's "here, YOU can look for yourself at my DATA to see if I'm wrong."   He presents it to the more general public on his youtube channel, and in the ASR forum in which he knows there are plenty of technically informed people who can help catch problems. And this is what goes on at ASR all the time.

Yeah @amir_asr your posted results for the listening test are meaningless and unverifiable. No way to know you did that unless it was proctored like @soundfield says 

There is a proctor: it is called a computer.  In comparing files, a computer program randomizes trials, keeps the results and summarizes and reports them at the end. 

As to verification, I showed you video where I explain precisely how I passed the test and how you too -- assuming you have critical listening abilities -- can do the same.  

Furthermore, newer versions of the ABX comparator has a cryptographic hash which makes it impossible to doctor the results:

foo_abx 2.0 beta 4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.5
2014-12-09 14:24:40

File A: 30 Hz jitter strong level .025.flac
SHA1: 54719c17fd29d0546b79f50bd7e3c61de1dd025d
File B: no jitter.flac
SHA1: 262cd6c4d4c73502a0142f867b00aae013fd13ce

Output:
DS : Primary Sound Driver

14:24:40 : Test started.
14:25:00 : 01/01
14:25:06 : 02/02
14:25:16 : 03/03
14:25:21 : 04/04
14:25:27 : 05/05
14:25:34 : 06/06
14:25:39 : 07/07
14:25:45 : 08/08
14:25:51 : 09/09
14:25:56 : 10/10
14:25:56 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10
Probability that you were guessing: 0.1%

-- signature --
ba16bda939028d34d8b131283f9d46709dab36f9

You run the above result against a signature check program and it will give thumbs up/down as to whether the results are hand modified.

So no, you have many ways to build confidence on such results and I have given you reasons above.

Ultimately though, if we are going to doubt each other's ethics, then we can't go anywhere.  I could accuse you of being AJ for example. You could jump up and down 1000 times and I can still say you are him.  What are you going to do then?  Accept that you could be AJ?

If these results can be gamed so easily, why don't you, AJ or whoever show us that?  If you can't, then you don't know how they can be games and therefore, all you have is FUD, not facts.