I will translate the title thread to make it acceptable as a concept for some :
The experience of sound impact the body-heart/mind-brain/soul-spirit different levels and layers of experience and meanings ...
Calling it "mysticism" and a "mystery" is only short-hand writing for a deeper matter than imagine trivial mind ... But many are so estranged to meaningful experiences varieties they reduce all of them to only one level ... The accountants worker and consumers linear levels of thinking and understanding ... But i dont think that Bach offering his works to God as did Bruckner, Liszt or Hildegard of Bingen , or Ustad ali Akbar Khan or Sharam Nazeri think as American consumers customers or like accountants creating their musical mysteries for initiate mind or mind looking for "truth" certainly not as consumers background music so "wonderful" mijostyn and i agree it could be... ...
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As music cannot be really written, mathematics cannot be reduced to writing sums of computations... Mysteries are everywhere if we are able to think instead of repeating common -place opinions inspired by the materialism and nominalism popular in Anglo Saxon world especially ... Read the greatest American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce ...A polymath genius who investigate what is "meaning" and despise the nominalist habit of the mind around him ...He created a new science singlehandly ...
«We cannot begin with complete doubt» C. S. Peirce
“I hear you say: ‘All that is not /fact/ : it is poetry’. Nonsense! Bad poetry is false, I grant; but nothing is truer than true poetry. And let me tell the scientific men that the artists are much finer and more accurate observers than they are, except of the special minutiae that the scientific man is looking for.”
― Charles Sanders Peirce
“Few persons care to study logic, because everybody conceives himself to be proficient enough in the art of reasoning already. But I observe that this satisfaction is limited to one’s own ratiocination, and does not extend to that of other men.”
― Charles Sanders Peirce, The Fixation of Belief
“Notwithstanding all that has been discovered since Newton’s time, his saying that we are little children picking up pretty pebbles on the beach while the whole ocean lies before us unexplored remains substantially as true as ever, and will do so though we shovel up the pebbles by steam shovels and carry them off in carloads.”
― Charles Sanders Peirce, Collected Papers
“Are you sure twice two are four? Not at all. A certain percentage of the human race are insane and subject to illusions. It may be you are one of them, and that your idea that twice two is four is a lunatic notion, and your seeming recollection that other people think so, the baseless fabric of a vision.”
― Charles Sanders Peirce
“Some persons fancy that bias and counter-bias are favorable to the extraction of truth–that hot and partisan debate is the way to investigate. This is the theory of our atrocious legal procedure. But Logic puts its heel upon this suggestion. It irrefragably demonstrates that knowledge can only be furthered by the real desire for it, and that the methods of obstinacy, of authority and every mode of trying to reach a foregone conclusion, are absolutely of no value. These things are proved. The reader is at liberty to think so or not as long as the proof is not set forth, or as long as he refrains from examining it. Just so, he can preserve, if he likes, his freedom of opinion in regard to the propositions of geometry; only, in that case, if he takes a fancy to read Euclid, he will do well to skip whatever he finds with A, B, C, etc., for, if he reads attentively that disagreeable matter, the freedom of his opinion about geometry may unhappily be lost forever.”
― Charles Sanders Peirce,
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«Musical ideas or feelings are not mere sound, and yet are nothing apart from sound; they may be described in emotive language ("sad" and the like) and yet are never adequately so described. Description - a logical interpretant, dependent on collateral observation by which the feelings heard are compared with human emotions conventionally designated - lacks the specificity, complexity, and nuance of the musical ideas described. As Mendelssohn said, "It is not that music is too vague for words; it is too precise for words." That is why the proper or complete interpretant of music is emotional, not logical. But that emotional interpretant is not one’s ordinary feeling, for example, of sadness; it is the same complex of feeling as that embodied in the piece of music heard. » (Short : Peirce theory of signs 2007: 204).
Susanne Langer (1953: 147). "The first principle in musical hearing is not, as many people assume, the ability to distinguish the separate elements in a composition and recognize its devices, but to experience the primary illusion [i.e., the movement of the music through the 'virtual time' constructed by the work] , to feel the consistent movement and recognize at once the commanding form which makes this piece an inviolable whole"
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In written speech we can say anything and contradict ourself and negate what has been said ... We can begin to wrote again forgetting what we just corrected ...We are free in a way we are not in musical playing expression and in oral speech ...
Nobody can lie in musical immediate playing expression because nothing can be retracted as in oral expression before writings was invented ...In music playing as in oral speech we live in time with time through timing ..."Lying" can be detected in oral speech and in music by some asynchronization in the expressing body ...
In the written music or speech we live out of time without time ...
This is why orality as music playing implicate the whole living body...
Written music and written speech do not implicate the whole body they are social institution in a way music playing and oral speech are not ...Writing miss the mystery of time and timing which is the body itself, the body being a rythms of interlocked spirals at all scales from the microtubules to the body arms......
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"Both the man of science and the man of action live always at the edge of mystery, surrounded by it."
J. Robert Oppenheimer
"My music is the spiritual expression of what I am - my faith, my knowledge, my being."
John Coltrane
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@tyray
@stuartk, Thank you for giving @mahgister his props! There was no need at all to delete your post:
I often find myself in agreement with @mahgister and am not shy about expressing it. I deleted my initial post because I wanted to say more on this thread topic but upon further consideration, opted not to, simply because is so subjective.
If "person A" regards mysticism as frivolous ianity, at best and "person B" has had vivid experiences that fall within the realm of "the mystical", where is there space for dialog? I don’t see it. "person A" is liable to view "person B" as anything from overly-imaginative to deranged and there is nothing "person B" can do to change this. It’s for this reason that I thought it best not to comment further, despite the fact that this is a topic that greatly interests me. I think it best to leave it at that.
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