Subwoofer speed is in the room, not the box

“If subwoofers and main speakers are integrated correctly there is no reason to turn the subs up or down with any genre of music. A system that is tuned correctly does not care what genre you are playing. When I use the term , system I include the room in that category.

Most audiophiles are ball parking it with their ears which are extremely poor calibration devices. There is no substitute for measurement.”

I agree re: subs gain when correctly* implemented. With both music and movie reproduction I never change subs gain as it sits where it’s supposed to for overall balance, although I can understand if some would want to go bonkers with the subs gain lever to suit a particular mood and/or occasion.

With regard to measurements, they’re certainly indispensable in many regards and as an outset at least with some parameters, but to me it always comes down to fine tuning per ears as a last tweaking measure - if not in all aspects.

My (limited) experience agrees with properly aligned bass being largely equitable across music genres, @phusis ​​​​@mijostyn , but I found subs with considerable room gain become less predictable according to how a given track/album was mastered - variation in bass gain seems extreme for certain album versions. Specifically: this variation (in bass gain) does not seem to scale with genre, rather, it seems aligned with specific masters / remasters, some albums / versions having very low bass levels and others (at the same subs’ level) being far too high and exciting room modes that are not heard on other versions. This seems independent of overall SPL for the whole audible frequency spectrum, I should note - i.e., it doesn’t seem to be simply because some albums / versions are simply mastered louder overall. I could make up a rule that it seems more pronounced in stuff mastered for OST’s or something like that, but trying to ascribe a pattern would probably just be misleading and pointless.
Measurements and by-ear-fine-tuning both suggest things are good in my present setup (at least within the system-incl.-room constraints), but the level dials on my subs’ plates still get exercise almost every listening session for favored tracks with extremes in bass gain (I already know where the dials belong based on past tuning exercises).

This tendency is pronounced enough that I’ve considered getting a Goldpoint passive attenuator or similar device from which to run my subs - reduce the # level dials to turn by 50%, but I’ve concern over running the inbuilt plate amps on high level (downstream of a passive attenuator) for each listening session. Thoughts?

@phusis I have no experience with horn subwoofer. For most of us they are impractical do to size constraints. For sure distortion will be lower for any given size driver due to efficiency. They problem is low bass will rattle and resonate almost anything. IMHO is is much easier to make a small enclosure resonance free with clever design and balanced force construction. It will not come remotely close to the efficiency of a horn but is way more practical from a size perspective. You are doing exactly as I suggested for crossover and slope. The game is keeping the sub out of the midrange or you will have mud. You are running 85 Hz @ 36 dB/oct. If you move up to 100 Hz you will have to steepen the slope. I can change crossover points and slopes on the fly which is very helpful for AB comparisons. 

@audioquest4life  The largest I would go is 15". The reason is the larger drivers have more trouble maintaining pistonic motion, they wobble. If you want more subwoofer use multiples of smaller drivers. Two 12's make a 15. Two 15s make an 18. So, go with four 15s. I use 12" drivers because the 15's would require a larger enclosure which will not fit in my situation and larger enclosures are more difficult to control from a resonance perspective.

@gdaddy1 Rel is only interested in selling as many subwoofers as they can. Their method of implementation is worse than silly. 

@benanders The solution to your problem is digital bass management with room control, which is really speaker control. You can change the volume of the subs instantly with sliders for each individual channel on the computer. Room control will even out the frequency response of the sub with the best response at the listening position. I advance the volume of the subwoofers by 6 dB. with the crossover point and slope I use this gives live recordings the thump of the real experience at less than ear damaging levels and I do not change it at all for any given recording. These are choices that the mastering engineer makes and who am I to alter his art? 

Digital bas management uses measurements you make of your system. It sets the crossover point and slope, and aligns the subs with the mains in time and phase perfectly. After the system is set up it will be flat and your only adjustment by ear or feeling is relative volume. Low bass you feel more than hear. Go to a live jazz club and feel the bass and drums. That is what you want at home without being able to identify the subwoofers by ear. If you can hear the subs as individual drivers you need to rethink your integration. 

@mijostyn Rel is only interested in selling as many subwoofers as they can. Their method of implementation is worse than silly. 

Is it just REL you think is silly or are all sub manufacturers silly?

I just came back from the Tampa audio show and had this very discussion with SVS.  They said they don't suggest higher than 50hz. Cutting off main speakers that are perfectly capable of producing deep base is something they don't recommend. Their words, not mine. 

Silliness prevailed.... I couldn't find ONE room where anyone cut the main speakers with high crossed subs. Not one. Many of the displays had NO subs and the speakers alone were more than capable of producing deep powerful (dare I say fast?) bass. Their display only used subs for home theater demonstration. 2 channel stereo was speakers only.  

So the question is...If the high pass method makes the speaker sound so much better, wouldn't every speaker manufacturer use this superior method? Are all these displays competing for high end sound missing the secret sauce that would make their speakers sound even better?  Are they ALL silly?

mijostyn

7,990 posts

02-20-2024 at 10:04pm

@benanders The solution to your problem is digital bass management with room control, which is really speaker control. You can change the volume of the subs instantly with sliders for each individual channel on the computer.

@mijostyn I agree this would be the most typical solution. I even implemented a rather basic version that could be controlled with a smartphone app slider (and in real time IIRC). That was genuinely great for convenience, but required even higher dial setting on the plate amps than the passive preamp I tried. Literally no (digital) file I’ve played requires (level) dial setting past 3pm (most not beyond 1pm) for “glorious bass,” but certain newer recordings can easily shake the all-concrete room at same approx. gain (as measured for dB with subs off) due to bumps in some albums/versions bass frequencies…

I advance the volume of the subwoofers by 6 dB. with the crossover point and slope I use this gives live recordings the thump of the real experience at less than ear damaging levels and I do not change it at all for any given recording. These are choices that the mastering engineer makes and who am I to alter his art?

So I say I, I 😅 am the one to alter the art (italics in quote mine for emphasis). I think this may be the true discrepancy. I do not share a hands-off [the proportional frequencies] mindset, as the work of some masterings is just tailored for a bass environment I don’t recognize. I much rather not run plate amps near max to squeeze more convenient control over this (seems simply a psychological conflict of interests in my case - ease of control vs. concern over fatigue to sub amps); but again - I surely don’t argue this is the most conventional and hassle-free approach once subs are properly integrated.

This article helped my thinking on the matter; it was published about the same time I finally started realizing just how (file-/pressing-/master-) version-dependent music playback characteristics can be, before the mechanical / layout characteristics of the kit and room factor in. It’s also part of the reasoning I’m not bashful in thinking glorious bass doesn’t necessarily require taking whatever proportional level the (re?)masterer determined. Just my perception; subject to change without notice. 😉