Critical listening and altered states

@newton_john 

@hilde45  specifically connects altered states with evaluation of sonics, rather than "relaxation". Your characterization of absorption would seem to suggest these are incompatible.  This is what I don’t understand.

I certainly can't fully give myself up to the music while simultaneously engaging in critical analysis. Perhaps others can.

@mahgister 

Music absorption or immersion cannot coexist with a state of acoustic stress or dissatisfaction...

I can’t argue with this but I’m confused about how "absorption" relates to "altered states as related to what @hilde45  stated at the beginning of the thread:

Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding). 

In other words, can one evaluate a system’s sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption? 

First: all is a question here about "attention" as in a focus centered state (details), or in a surrounding encompassing mode(whole) and in a relaxed moving balance  state between these 2 polarities (whole and detail).

Second : a critical listening of sound can suddenly appear because out of the perfect optimal balance between modes of attention, something stress our sense and perception of the optimal relation between sound as acoustic experience and music as pure meaning; a disturbed attention focus suddenly critically on sound, forgetting musical meaning (the meaning of Bruckner last 5th symphony for example as a perfect image of near death we can see with our mind eyes if something dont disturb our concentration of attention)

Third: Ecstasy, an altered state of mind as meaning perception through an optimal balance between sound manifestation of the music content cannot exist in a critical mode of attention focussing unilaterally on some negative acoustic aspect of the sound vehicle.

Four: this is why i said that an optimal acoustic control of the system /room/ears help us to reach an altered state of perception through this optimal balance where we can forget at the ultimate limit everything save pure meanings expressed as the unity of sound and music as ONE meaning...

 a remark : Attention can be "divided" or can work in two modes simultaneously, only in the "state of flow" when consciousness is relaxed and work out of any stress.

Then yes i can listen critically in an altered state at the express condition to be out of any kind of stress, acoustic stress or any other...

If not i enter in state where i lose the "flow state" of meaningful perception...

 Each perception can be a creative act, a stress, or a boring process by habit, or a loss of control in a way or another with some substances...

In a simpler way : if the system/room is optimal for our ears/brain we enter in an altered state, a musical ecstasy..

If not, we need a beer to forget our imperfect acoustic experience...Or we need another acoustics experiment around an acoustic concept to improve the system/room...

If i am happy with my system it is already an altered uncritical state of satisfaction (in spite of my consciousness of my gear limitation because the system work optimally)

and to this question :

In other words, can one evaluate a system's sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption? 

The answer is no. I cannot evaluate my system stoned as a rock, or drunk and drunken. Why ? Because acoustics critical analysis is like thinking and seeing with his ears, i cannot when my mind is darken by the fumes...

@stuartk

In other words, can one evaluate a system’s sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption? 

The answer is no. I cannot evaluate my system stoned as a rock, or drunk and drunken. Why ? Because acoustics critical analysis is like thinking and seeing with his ears, i cannot when my mind is darken by the fumes...

So, I clarified that I do not mean ASC to the degree to where one cannot focus and become absorbed. If you've ever had a cup of coffee, you know that there are many degrees one can be "altered" within the general rubric clumsily captured by ASC or "altered states of consciousness." 

So, I'll let those who want to pour out their (same, repeated) opinions have at it. I cannot explain it better or help those who wish to dilate on a misconstrued interpretation. Their need to talk is more emotional than rational, and there's nothing to do but let the slurry swirl. 

@mahgister 

@stuartk 

@hilde45 is correct in what he says.

Even just listening to music for some people is sufficient to induce altered states of consciousness. No stimulants are needed.

This is well documented in the scientific literature. Here is just one example of a book on the subject - Herbert, R. (2011). Everyday Music Listening: Absorption, Dissociation and Trancing. Aldershot, Ashgate.

"Abstract
In what ways does listening to music shape everyday perception? Is music particularly effective in promoting shifts in consciousness? Is there any difference perceptually between contemplating one's surroundings and experiencing a work of art? Everyday Music Listening is the first book to focus in depth on the detailed nature of music listening episodes as lived mental experiences. Ruth Herbert uses new empirical data to explore the psychological processes involved in everyday music listening scenarios, charting interactions between music, perceiver and environment in a diverse range of real-world contexts. Findings are integrated with insights from a broad range of literature, including consciousness studies and research into altered states of consciousness, as well as ideas from ethology and evolutionary psychology suggesting that a psychobiological capacity for trancing is linked to the origins of making and receiving of art. The term 'trance' is not generally associated with music listening outside ethnomusicological studies of strong experiences, yet 'hypnotic-like' involvements in daily life have long been recognized by hypnotherapy researchers. The author argues that multiply distributed attention - prevalent in much contemporary listening-does not necessarily indicate superficial engagement. Music emerges as a particularly effective mediator of experience. Absorption and dissociation, as manifestations of trancing, are self-regulatory processes, often operating at the level of unconscious awareness, that support an individual perception of psychological health. This fascinating study brings together research and theory from a wide range of fields to provide a new framework for understanding the phenomenology of music listening in a way that will appeal to both specialist academic audiences and a broad general readership."

@hilde45 

I guess what it boils down to is simply the fact that I'm not experienced in utilizing substances in precise doses to achieve what you describe; hence my difficulty grasping your meaning.

I don't know to whom you were referring in terms of a "need to talk" that is "more emotional than rational".  My frames of reference for examining awareness tend to be meditation and art-making, rather than utilization of substances, although, decades ago, like many of my peers, I did my share of experimentation with chemically-alteted states

@mahgister 

Thanks for your comments.

"Each perception can be a creative act" ... I'm going to have to muse on that one!