2. pc-audio
  3. 1168589271

Help with PC Audio Quality vs. CD

I hope someone with real experience can help out with this. I am having a hard time getting the same quality sound from a PC that I get from a CD player. I recently built a HTPC running Windows MCE and ripped all my cd's using lossless compression. I'm using an M-Aduio Audiophile 192 sound card and run a coax digital out of the PC to an external DAC and to my amps. It just sounds flat to me, not that it's not clear sounding, but the bass is weaker, I can hear a harshness that's not there if I run any old CD player to the DAC through the same connection. Has anyone else experienced this? I keep reading in this forum that people are saying how much better the computer transport is in theory, but I have yet to witness it. I heard that the Windows KMixer is the problem. I tried ASIO and Kernal Streaming drivers that are supposed to bypass this, and it sounds clearer, but still not as 3-dimentional and "black background" as a CD player (and I mean ANY cheap CD player, I've tried 3!)

Can someone out there with an external DAC try this and let me know their results? Use a DVD player or anything with a digital out... I don't get it. My soundcard alone cost 3 times as much as the cheap DVD player I tried and it doesn't sound as good. Anyone experience this or have any suggestions?

Here's my system so you can understand the sound I'm looking for.

I have an external MSB Link DAC III Full Nelson that I've been using for years and I really like the sound of it. I've been using a couple Sony CD changers and running them to a MSB Digital Director that will automatically switch between digital inputs, out to the DAC, then to a tube pre and tube power amp (modded dynaco ST70) and out to a pair of Monitor Audio GR10's. This system (with the right tubes) sounds so sweet to me. I'm into the huge soundstage, crisp, smooth sound - melty mid-range... you know, the analog tube sound!

I have experience in recording studios and work professionally in computers, so I have a good understanding of both, so don't be afraid to get technical with me. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Ben
thesauce
thesauce OP
21 posts
 
Gmood1 - I just got a call from Koby that sold me the UD-10. He was very cool about it and he's shipping me another one right now. Good guy there. This time, I'll make all the digital connections BEFORE plugging it into the USB, although he said that it shouldn't have fried it doing what I did, so it may have just been a defective unit. Still, I would rather not take the chance a second time!

So where did you get your power supply from? You said one that works with an SB3? What is an SB3?

Also, I am using Vista with MCE and it sounds a whole lot better than XP (not ASIO). I can't A/B XP ASIO and Vista, so I don't know if they are the same or not. I am leaning towards thinking that ASIO would be better, just because Vista will still enable you to use digital volume control. This is a great feature for me, since my tube preamp doesn't have a remote. If I can get it to sound as good as my CD transport, then I'll be happy. For the hour that I got to hear it, it was VERY close, but I think barely a little less 3D (barely, not like before). I am sure this will go away after the unit burns in and if I change the power source. I'll let you know the results when I get the other unit in the mail. Take Care!

Ben
gmood1
1,251 posts
 
Yes I like the volume control too. I have this with my PC. The only problem is if the volume control is still enabled while listening to music. You haven't bypassed the windows audio sys.
It makes the sound stage a bit flat. The USB-Audio driver will completely take out the windows audio sys.

In order to get the best sound, the Kmixer has to be bypassed completely. You need the ASIO drivers to do that. You'll know when it's done because the volume control will have no effect.

The SB3 stands for Squeeze Box 3. You can go to Audio Circle and read about these little wireless units.

You need a 1.5 amp 5 volt power supply . Elpac use to make them.The same units discussed on AC will work with the UD-10.Go to AC an do a search on SB3 power supplies. You should get a lot of info to pop up. EBay could be a good place to look for this power supply. It is larger than the USB converter itself. lol
davemitchell
253 posts
 
You shouldn't need to go through all of this trouble to get better results. Something else is going on.

I don't know about that particular card, but have lots of experience with the Coax out of the M-Audio 24/96 and even the less expensive Revolution. I typically use plain old MusicmMatch Jukebox and do everything as WAV files. The results are very good. Not as good as multi-thousand dollar transports, but at least as good as entry level ones.

I also don't have any experience with your specific DAC. I can tell you that some DACs are much more sensitive to timing error than others and that could be a problem. In my experience, the Perceptual Technologies units work very well with PC's as a source.

For my own system, I use a Lynx AES16 with AES/EBU digital out into an Audio Research DAC3mkII. It gives me the best results of anything I have ever tried. The cards from Lynx and RME are better sounding than most others, including the otherwise pretty good M-Audio cards.

I used to spend a lot of time experimenting with this stuff and comparing the best I could achieve with a PC to very high end transports like the Audio Research CD3 and Linn CD12, for comparison.

For those of you who think that a transport is just a transport and that a PC can easily equal any transport, my experience has found that nothing could be further from the truth.
thesauce OP
21 posts
 
Hi Dave,

From my experience, I think you do have to go through "this much trouble" to get good quality out of a computer. I don't think it was too much trouble though. I've found that in my experience, seperating the power from the computer is a major difference in sound quality, as well as bypassing the Kmixer in windows. The best sound card in the world is going to sound bad if the data fed to it is distorted from the kmixer (and I imagine the dirty power from the computer doesn't help the situation). I am very happy with the quality I am now getting from the computer. I didn't think it would be possible, but USB with it's own power source is the way to go. I'm using Vista now, which doesn't have the kmixer anymore and it sounds MUCH better than XP did... I mean night and day difference here. I am not sure if it's better than ASIO in XP, since I can't easily A/B them. You may want to try ASIO on your system and see what you think if you haven't already. I think a PC can surpass any transport if it's set up right. The technology to pull data off a hard drive is far surperior to optical CD technology, as long as you get bit perfect transfers to the drive in the first place. Maybe certain transports color the sound in a pleasing way that the PC won't do, but that's what my DAC and tube system are for.

Ben
davemitchell
253 posts
 
Hi Ben,

The reason I said that you shouldn't have to "go to all of this trouble" is that in your original post you reported acheiving sound that was noticeably inferior to "any old CD player." In my experience this is definately not normal. I have been able to equal or surpass entry level CD players without going through the same steps that you had to. It makes me believe that there was something wrong, incompatible, or just not working right in your PC originally.

I would also respectfully disagree with you that a "PC can surpass any transport if it is set up right." Don't be so sure until you have had world-class transports and DACs to compare to in your system at home. I've spent a lot of time with units reference-quality digital players at home and am fortunate enough to get to work with them every day, and believe me, equalling their sound, or even coming close is no easy feat. If it were that easy, no high end manufacturer would still be selling those very expensive reference products. Companies like Meridian, Linn and others, have been trying for years to get a PC/hard drive/buffered machine to make state-of-the-art sound, and haven't been able to. I am not aware of anyone who has yet demonstrated or even made a serious claim to be able to equal the world's best digital players with a PC. I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen. I can't wait until it does. But we aren't there yet.

My understanding of the USB method is that has the potential of being superior to SPDIF, but in terms of actual implementation thus far, has not acheived anywhere near its potential. One possible exception to this is supposed to be the USB DACs from Wavelength Audio (I have never heard them). See their web site for a technical discussion and more detailed theory on this matter. They get quite expensive though.

Anyway, I'm glad you are getting better results with your new setup. Good luck!
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