1) Pulled out the white stuffing from front port hole where Millennium used to sit = adds bass 2) took out a 2.2 uf in the bass xover = mushy bass, now gone, clean, clear 3) swapped the Mundorf Supreme Silver OIl 2.2 for a Mundorf SESGO 2.2 on the paper tweet,,= nice gain,,, All in all, this lil Frankenstein has bass./mids/highs, clean, very low distortion/coloration in upper bass/low mids. = Fatigue Free I’d say this is a High Fidelity speaker. Not every/just any speaker can claim High Fidelity Status. Sure the Wilson’s has incredible highs, deep bass. But how are the upper bass/low mid fq voicing??? Here’s where the music gets tough. You see, the Vandersteens/ Wilson;’s beats out the Frankensteins on the low bass register, but when we come to the super critical upper bass.low mids,,ahhhh,. now here is where things can get all muddy, sloppy. The mid cone material determines the fatigue factor. I can listen to these Seas all day long with not even a pinch of fatigue overtaking the session. It is non-existent for all forms of jazz. . Except in some full orch symphony there is some stress from the lil DavidLouis. The paper tweet will stand up to any dome tweeter, under $200. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhXOCibpz4 |
OK vid is loading on YT, Here are a few things about upcomming NEW Video of the Frankensteins.
The Frankies beat out Wilson and Vandersteen in some respects.
The low bass on the Vandersteens and especially the Wilson's have a superior punch to drum sets. over the Seas Magnesium mids.
But having owned paper woofers in the past,, my goal is to be far away from anything paper composite.
Paper is not as clean, clear in the upper bas/low mids vs the Magnesium cones.
There is a trade off, as in everything audio.
We each have to pick the components that work best for our individual preferences, even as peculiar as they may seem to other audiophiles.
Grading the Frankensteins, i have no complaints,
My year long struggle to attain a world class speaker has been a success, but at a price,,,, these experiements do not come free.. |
ESL
repairrepairrepair, No thanks
Do they sound better than my Frankensteins?
Yes they do, But I could not deal with malfunctioning speakers.
back to Frankensteins.
Video comming after Sony cam charges.
I made 2 tweaks. |
|
yes youtube is very informative LOL |
mijostyn4,699 posts07-19-2021 11:17amMozartfan, I think you need to listen to a pair of Quads. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOWWW Indeed!!! WOWW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaAsse6INeoproblem is, are they tube amp friendly?? Do they have that narrow sweet spot, which would get on my nerves. But man do they sound fantastic!!! |
Mozartfan, I think you need to listen to a pair of Quads. |
@bache , you are absolutely correct. Except for me there is no regular listening. I think you mean for background music like in the office. Then I am really not listening. But, when I am listening everything matters. I want to close my eyes and be transported to the venue real or fabricated.
This will not happen without bass. Otherwise, you are correct. Speaker systems will not do it and really should not try. It does take large or multiple drivers. The smallest I would ever use is 10" but I greatly prefer 12". Four 12" drivers should do it in most home situations but if you have the room for larger enclosures 15" is fine. I have no trouble getting down to 10 Hz If I want to with four 12" drivers but I put a very steep digital subsonic filter at 18 Hz. Even with this filter the whole house sings. Glasses, dishes, pots and pans rattle. Mirrors shake and siding buzzes. Fortunately, you can not hear it all in front of the system. Masking is a beautiful thing.
There are several personal "don't buy under any circumstance" issues.
#1) Never buy a ported subwoofer. Power and digital EQ are a much better way to deal with frequency response. Port noise at very low frequencies is unavoidable.
#2) Never by a driver with a whizzer cone. It is a sure fire way to ruin high frequency detail. The best tweeters are ribbons and ESLs. If you want a full range speaker an ESL is the only way to fly.
|
csmgolf687 posts07-18-2021 4:53pmThankfully, you are not in charge of anything. Go on, keep throwing money at this trying to cobble together something without ANY clue as to what you are actually doing. It is great entertainment watching you fumble around cluelessly. If you had saved all of the money you have blown in the last couple of months flailing about, you could have actually bought something that sounds good, designed by someone that actually knows what they are doing. By all means though, carry on.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think you have a mis-understanding about my speakers,,, I like the bass from the W18's,,although as you will hear in the YT vid below,, the bass does in fact, when the W18's are isolated, I seem to hear a certain **flabbiness* to the bass. That may NOT have been there pre adding 4uf in the Thor xover design in the bass. Original Thor 8uf. I havea 10uf and just added a 2.2 uf. I am going to tech today and have him remove the 2.2 Mundorf SESGO ($100m each, came out the Millennium xover), I figured lets xover the W18 even lower, with the 10uf, crossed like 1200hz, now crosses 800hz/ WHat I think is going on, is the W18's are being asked to respond to a much lower fq , and they are getting all flabby. The video was orginally intended to be short , only showing the W18's in action,,But the Sony battery kept going and going,,so i brought in the DL 4 inch and also shows my paper tweet in action. You don't have to stay to the end. As it is over 30 minutes. I'd say my sound is good, At least, the coloration/distortion factors are very very low = no fatigue Only in big orch sections do we hear stress in the DL4. I am talking with ebayer now, not sure to go with his white wood cone 8 inch or yellow wood 6.5 cone Both have Neo magnets. If these larger cones hold up under huge orch fq attacks, , then I can say I have a real 1st class speaker. Sure I spennt on the experiementaions past year. But in the end, it may all be worth it. Just have to doge the wife flack attacks, now and then ;-)),, or really :-(( Can't leave comments as YT has me CANCELED due to my comments in the 1st few days of the cv19 thing. Comments section is PERMANENTLY closed off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIn2tfYCjK8 |
@mozartfan. You looks for specs, is good ,but not 100% informalities, I have huge experience in TB , use in my production line . TB 8" with regular magnet 2145 , remove Whizzer cone
This driver cost about $100 but have bamboo fiber enforcement cone, Very linear 400-8000HZ
|
Just took a look at the TB8,
I like the looks/build of the DL's better +
TB8's $315 each
vs
DL 6.5 $400/pair
I'm staying with DavidLouis,just not sure which of the 3 models I should go with. My guess is the bigger brother to the 4 that I have and really like. |
bache366 posts07-18-2021 8:10pm@mozartfan
I did not see Tang Band in you list , this is the Best
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You know I came across this driver, and did some reserach,,then for some reason did not like the voicing ona YT video,, But as we just learned, YT vids do not tell the whole story, as my recent experience in The Vox Project has proved. So here is the 8 incher,, from my fav YTer Hifier, This guy is the best on youtube , He knows his stuff and presents it clearly and HONESTLY. I only wish I could be where he is at in testing high fidelity components. Here is his demo of the TB 8.. I am glad you mentioned the TB's, as i was very close to ordering the DavidLouis 6.5. Not sure what the specs are on this TB8, and more important price, As the Vox Project set me back $800+ = I'm running out of cash... Lets take a closer look at the TB DavidLouis offers 3 different designs in the 6.5. Now i have to think things over........ . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeWdxE7qED0&t=115s . |
@mozartfan
I did not see Tang Band in you list , this is the Best
|
bache365 posts07-18-2021 6:28pmsorry very bad performance
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Interesting. A speaker has to stand or fall on its own. A EQ might upset the natural performance of a driver. The Vox **Full range** was far from *full*, Whereas the davidLouis 4 incher, is truly FULL, rolls off ,,well actually there is no weakness in rolloffs, . Goes nice and low and extends nice and high. Only in the say 1200-2k range there is a slight edge when orchestra gets loud. But in jazz, this lil full range really has some nice *warmish* (Body, substance) voicing. Not colored, not fatiguing. Female voice, very accurate. Its only when a orch is in full swing the upper mids get a bit stressed. But certainly *livable*. **Every wide band will sound different from another I tried 5 different ones, and found this DavidLouis 4 incher offering nice things in such a small package. The other 5 had issues. Dayton Audio 3 inch Diatone 6.5 inch AIYIMA 5 inch Lii Fast 8 (old model) Voxativ = Not all wide bands are the same. |
sorry very bad performance
|
full range drivers got very performance in mid bass 150-400 hz
to verify this I recommend all full range lovers use any equalizer and boost 300 hz about 6db up and you see what you loose
|
I guess this is is just a hypothetical question since most rooms in your typical home could not handle "full range" orchestral reproduction. Bass waves are really big and even placing four bass traps in the corners of a typical room that would be given over to the audiophile in the house is not going to be adequate. It might be interesting to figure out what speaker frequency range works best in a typical home to reproduce as close as possible a full orchestra and what minimum size room would you need. Assume that the room can be treated for sound, but realistically that probably won't be the largest rooms in most homes, such as the living or family room, so four subwoofers would be out, maybe two at the most. How far down does one really need to go or for that matter, does one really need a pair of super tweeters to get satisfactory results?
|
Thankfully, you are not in charge of anything. Go on, keep throwing money at this trying to cobble together something without ANY clue as to what you are actually doing. It is great entertainment watching you fumble around cluelessly. If you had saved all of the money you have blown in the last couple of months flailing about, you could have actually bought something that sounds good, designed by someone that actually knows what they are doing. By all means though, carry on. |
There
the 20hz-40hz,
Ain't worth the trouble\
15khz,,, yeah like we can all identify these 15k-25k hz's when struck by a instrument,.
I'm telling ya, thats all bogus snakeoil
40hz is rock bottom,
12khz is top of Mt Everst.
above 12k is for outer space astro-nuts.
Below 40hz is for cave dwellers. |
Note carefully what Troels say here **The edge coated driver....but it does make things sound **better** than it ACTUALLY SHOULD,,,as is sometimes the case with drivers displaying significant linear distortion ,,,which can sometimes be SEDUCTIVE,,but none the less ,,,DISTORTED... Vandersteens and countless others,, B&W.s , come to mind here. **Yeah I’ll take em...** Get home,,WOW , love em,,,6 months later,,,haha,,1 years later,,,**maybe I should upgrade or change labs..** haha. Eventually our old friend,,or should i say ,,fiend,,,, the Fatigue factor will come around. happens all the time. Why? The Seduction factor got the best of ya. Not once have I ever felt even the slightest faigue with the magnesium cone mids. Purchased 2004, and believe it or not, had the Thors up for sale at $900, with new Millennium tweets. man would that have been a major mistake... More than likely when I recover from the **Vox Project** I will swap out a W18 for a W22. Not sure if I;’ll go W22E001 or the new W22 Graphene. have to look over magnet weight, lowest hz spec. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS-W12CY006.htm |
That range is from 26hz to around 12khz including harmonics, but the speakers that can go that low are few and far between
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've looked over every option from Seas and Scanspeak
Every woofer that goes below 30hz, has a paper composite cone.
My hifi journey all began with paper woofers. I am trying to avoid this paper woofer resonances.
In my experience the magnesium material cones offer best dampening and cleanest upper bass fq's.
The Scanspeaks offer a deep bass kick, Seas Mag's superior upper bass/low mid fq's.
|
Many people have noticed something special when they add a subwoofer to their system and have remarked about it here. It seems to add more than just bass. People say things like it adds "air" or makes "everything else sound better." You can only hear at best down to 16 Hz. But you can feel right down to 1Hz if the pressure is high enough
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agree with this excellent post.
Troels mention this **air movement** volume as having the feel ofa deeper bass than what is actually on the graph.
I'd rather have dual W22's than a subwoofer.
|
Here read CAREFULLY, , this excellent summary of Troels, on the distortion in the 800-2khz range and how he notes Dual W18's, **seem* to make bass that goes lower than specs on the paper.. Dual W18's move more air vs a single W22 or W26. Bass has more of a *punchiness*. Troels also gives a big thumbs up for the Cresendo. Why? One of the very few dome tweets to hit 92db sensitivity. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-25-mkII.htm |
something special when they add a subwoofer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That **something special*** would just grate my nerves to no end.
Each his own I guess.
I am after clean , high fidelity, not HT effects. |
There is more to live music than the frequency of any given note especially when it comes to percussion. But, since you insist, the lowest note on a pipe organ is 8.17 Hz. The lowest note on a tuba is 16.35 Hz as is the lowest note on the Bosendorfer Imperial grand piano.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bach's organ concertos **Might** offer a few seconds of these super rare organ notes,
At the cost of what??
Crappy upper bass/low mids comming from the heavy duty woofer.
No thanks.
I do not want/need below 40hz in my system.
~~~However~~~
It would be nice to swap out a W18 for a W22 or W26 woofer.
Just for a deeper bass transient.. Whether these larger cones go down to 20-40hz I have no idea.
If I can gain bass VOLUME/effects. , swapping out a W18 for a W22, I might make the tweak.
But this tweak has nothing with attempting to capture 20hz-40hz, as there is really nothing there in full symphony orchestra... Cello lowest note is 60hz. |
bache363 posts07-18-2021 7:15amfor good bass 40 hz and up is good enough
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Troels Gravesen pretty much says the same thing about his 40hz+ MMT speakers with 6.5 inch mids. **I don't EVEN miss the 40hz below region with DUAL W18's pumping out rock solid bass** Paraphrase mine. WE've been scammed , chasing this elusive 40hz below fq's. Just more snakeoil in this speaker industry. We all drank from the cup of baloney. |
I mean for regular listening . For go down. 20hz you need sub or woofer. v big size 12-15 inch at least, A lot High end LS with small size 6" and less claimed low 30-35 Hz, don't believed
|
@bache , good enough? Not if you are trying to reproduce the live experience. With 40 Hz and under missing you are just listening to a HiFi.
Many people have noticed something special when they add a subwoofer to their system and have remarked about it here. It seems to add more than just bass. People say things like it adds "air" or makes "everything else sound better." You can only hear at best down to 16 Hz. But you can feel right down to 1Hz if the pressure is high enough (that would be an explosion). Anybody who has been in the presence of a large pipe organ will tell you it is like the hand of god shaking you, an incredible experience. For those of you who have not heard (felt) one there is a list of the largest pipe organs in the world. Find the largest one near you and attend a concert. It will blow all your fuses. |
Mozartfan, all you need is a transistor radio and you will be happy as a lark. But, what the heck are you doing here? Why don't you join a bridge club.
There is more to live music than the frequency of any given note especially when it comes to percussion. But, since you insist, the lowest note on a pipe organ is 8.17 Hz. The lowest note on a tuba is 16.35 Hz as is the lowest note on the Bosendorfer Imperial grand piano.
You obviously have not heard a proper system. In the minds of little people if you have not experienced it, it does not exist. |
for good bass 40 hz and up is good enough
|
is a bit looney.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT
OK I just read your post a 2nd time, just after posying the response below...
Grant it , in some new age electronic music, there is a good representation of the super low, super high fq.s
Exception to the rule.
Take a very close look at the classical orch fq chart above,,somewhere,,,
I downloaded the page and use a IP camera to blow up the image so i can see the main fq’s region .
60hz-2khz
I am not sure who started this idea of musical notes within the 20hz-40hz and above 12k hz ~
There is nothing there.
If we go to Mr Carlson’s lab and he sets up a testing of these 20-40hz and above 12khz...you would be in shock at how puny, minisclue is the sound force.
And then ask Carlson to find these notes within a jazz, classical, or rock LP, he would be at a loss. His gadget meters would only faintly register these hits.
Only if we get a bass drum smashed hard by Keith Moon. And a cymbol smash by Billy Cobham. will we see the below 40hz and above 12k fq registered.
And when Carlson adds up all the fq’ timings hitting below 40 and above 12k,.,,,would result is1%
Its all flufff,
WE;ve been propaganadized, pure snakeoil
All (well 99%) of classical muisc falls in the 60hz-2500hz.
THe purpose of a tweeter is to add sheen and sparkle
Tweeter=tweeter, All good tweeters are equal. What makes a tweeter superior vs the other is sensitivity rating.
Below 91db is weak and lacks voicing force/power.
Also this 60hz-2khz region is mostly carried by the midwoofer,.
making the midwoofer the very heart of the speaker.
Thus the cone material is most critical in how these fq’s will sound.
Which is why I do not like paper in my midwoofers.
Magnesium has superior damping character, giving us a much lower distortion/coloration .
Which equates to a sweeter, cleaner musical image. |
All full range drivers got poor ability not only 20-60 Hz , but also 60-300 Hz , so adding sub is not solved the problem, we still have big gap in mid bass. . Sound not full scale ,like traditional 3 Way LS.
If you like how full range sound , the need add regular woofer with crosspoint 400-500Hz like all my line of speakers |
Just buy a pair of Svs SB 3000 subs or
the Svs 3000 mini subs they are loaded with DSP technologies
and agreat app for integrating Bass and adjustments on the fly
this way you Can concentrate on the much more critical mid range
on ,and have free shipping and a 45day audition. And refund
policy Nothing to loose and excellent sounding tuneful Bass. |
I can understand not appreciating genres that incorporate synth machines, or taking a purist approach to music reproduction, but trying to say it doesn't exist or isn't relevant is a bit looney. |
Mozartfan, you wish. I smell an excuse for not having a system that can do bass. There is a huge amount of information between 20 and 60 Hz. You can see it in real time with a measurement microphone. In about 15 seconds of observation you will eat your words and choke on them. It is painfully obvious you have no idea what you are talking about or you are just joking. If not you are spreading false information based on assumptions that are dead wrong. I hate that and I am happy risking getting kicked off this site to say so.
Without adequate performance in the 20 Hz to 60 Hz range the FEELING that you are at a live performance disappears. It is just one factor required for the absolute sound but a very important one. I can demonstrate that to anyone in just a few minutes. |
I’ve been researching room treatment's and was going to start a separate thread with a fair amount of worthwhile links I’ve found. |
mijostyn4,687 posts07-17-2021 11:40amYou all have to understand that there are very few speakers that can project under 80 Hz with authority in a normal sized room. The specs are taken at 1 meter. Anyone here listen to their speakers at one meter? This does not even account for what the room does and most rooms are awful when it comes to bass. To me a full range speaker does 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Below 100 Hz is in the realm of a specialty system designed specifically for 20 Hz to 100 Hz with room correction (really speaker correction) and enough power to handle the correction.
There is only one speaker made today that is truly one way, flat between 100 Hz and 20 kHz and with a perfect dispersion pattern minimizing room interaction and I'll give you one guess what that is. Hint; it also has the lowest distortion of any speaker and the fastest transient response.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AS I guessed earlier The 20hz-40hz is nothing but pure fantasy. If you wish to believe in the 20hz-40hz, just great, Don't try to push YOUR fantasia agenda on to my ACTUAL REALITY/beliefs Not even Dr carlosn labs tests could convince me of the 20hz-40hz as **real** music, . Not even his science. I ain't buying. 40hz is all I'll accept at the very bottom. 60hz is where i really begin to say **Music starts here*. The real test of any speaker, From Bose to Wilson's $975,000 speaker, is how are the sonics in the 100hz-2k hz region. This is where all distortion/colotaion is comming from. Which is why i choose Magnesium cone material for my dual mids. This material shows near zero coloration/distortion. The only complaint is the low sensitivity, but as with all things its a trade off. = It is what it is, 87 db sens. You just have to accept this spec as part of the package. Which is why i know fora fact I would not like any speaker comming from Wilson's labs. Wilson uses Scanspeak's, which have rock solid punch, but has a flavoring in the lower mids that i just can not live with, = Grate my nerves. Magnesiusm is the New Midwoofer. Surplanting the old paper composites. I do use a paper tweeter which matches any dome tweeter on the market. This tweeter has zero distortion, zero coloration. Tweeters is not the issue in speaker coloraion, Its the midwoofers where all these nasty resonances come from. Fatigue comes from midwoofers 100hz-1500hz region. |
You all have to understand that there are very few speakers that can project under 80 Hz with authority in a normal sized room. The specs are taken at 1 meter. Anyone here listen to their speakers at one meter? This does not even account for what the room does and most rooms are awful when it comes to bass. To me a full range speaker does 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Below 100 Hz is in the realm of a specialty system designed specifically for 20 Hz to 100 Hz with room correction (really speaker correction) and enough power to handle the correction.
There is only one speaker made today that is truly one way, flat between 100 Hz and 20 kHz and with a perfect dispersion pattern minimizing room interaction and I'll give you one guess what that is. Hint; it also has the lowest distortion of any speaker and the fastest transient response. |
Janszen not Jantzen, sorry.
|
The Jantzen 412A was a full range speaker. |
This link has a good visual along with brief bit well rounded explanation. You’ll notice that the instruments listed are set above a grand piano keyboard for reference. I'm inclined, given the money I spend on my equipment, to want to hear all of the notes played so that I can feel the artists full expression of the piece they are playing. An aside: You didn’t need subs for Rock until the Synth came along. But then you didn’t need 32hz until the Hammond B-3 became a regular in Rock, and before that 40hz was enough. https://www.psbspeakers.com/the-frequencies-of-music/ |
Just to be perfectly Clear - I am not disputing that normal human hearing range of a healthy individual ears is usually in-between 20Hz and 20kHz.
My take away from the info/ reports/articles, by various different sources
(there are several more) is that research has shown that in environments where Humans live the total frequency range at which soundwaves travel safe enough to have an affect on the Human condition is at the 15Hz - 150kHz.
Millercarbon is absolutely correct that at this level this would be at an unconscious condition at best. So the argument then becomes - if this is true should it even be considered sound?
I have been convinced that it does. For the most basic fundamental reason that researchers know that frequency at this level has a direct affect on the part Human brain that is
specifically
responsible for emotion.
Even in the unconscious condition.
What is music if not the greatest Human emotional expression.
What I also find interesting is the manufactures who embrace the science and incorporate it in their products - even if I can't afford it.... |
Many claim to be, but how many can handle a full orchestra’s range?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since a member here graciously posted a link revealing the fq range of a orchestra.
FACTS of the matter is
60hz-2khz is the solid core of a symphony instrumentation.
How low, how high a speaker does extend/does not extend is not at all to be considered in speaker choice consideration.
Its how well does a speaker vouice this critical band width.
Wide Bnad high sensitivity is not beefy enough for voicing this band with a significant force factor, = SLAM.
The cone material is too thin, there is not enough power to voice a full orchestra.
Horns would be best bet,
But there are 2 serious issues with horns
1) Big/heavy
2) Expensive
3) Ugly= Not wife friendly
This rules horns out.
back to xover designs. as the ultimate speaker for voicing orchestra.
The only cone material that works for me, is Seas Magnesium. I have not heard their newest Graphene cone, which may be a improvement, I have no idea, they are expensive.
Midwoofers voice the 40hz-1500/2khz.
Here is where a orchestra's main heart and soul is voiced.
Tweeters only add a shimmering
I have added a 4 inch wide band DavidLouis and this adds more body and fullness to the 80hz-12khz area,
My Kasun 3.5 double magnet 91db paper cone tweeter adds sparkle, glitz to the 9khz-14khz
My next step is to find another DavidLouis that tops his 4 incher.
I am happy with the 4, but I think we may get something more out his 6.5ers.
His cone material on the 4 is not thin like the german labs, , it voices the muisc much different. The DL has soul, has warmth and body.
Although the cone is like 3 inches, believe it or not, has some bass kick and highs roll off nicely at around 12k.
My Frankenstein is full range but w/o all the distortion issues you will find in speakers such as Vandersteen,
Wilson
Focal
Kharma
Klipsch
ProAc
Sonus Faber
Tannoy
KEF
Revel
Harbeth
and countless others that suffer The Distortion Issue/Coloration in the critical bandwidth.
I have no such major issues in the criticals.
Only the DL 4 has some stress and mushiness at peak passages in orchestra.
I need to work getting a new wide band 6.5 to make my Frankenstein the best possible speaker.
Sure horns will beat it, but the cost involved with horns, its not just practical. |
Mr the Carbon what the frequency for crab chorus on slick Rick song Indian girl story? This one my test for speaker coherency chorus near end for adult audienceS. |
millercarbon. Like you, I do think that inaudible upper frequencies
matter; however, I have a hypothetical question: Is it possible that we
do not necessarily know that our brains perceive this, and could these
frequencies be used for directional location, i.e. placement of
instruments. That's a part of it for sure. My understanding is the ear has four times as many hair cells devoted to sensing frequencies above what we consider audible, as detect audible frequencies. This seeming paradox is resolved by the fact the so-called audible frequencies are all tested using sine waves. Something that really does not exist in nature. ggc is right, we evolved to find our way around a natural environment. It would make more sense to look there than at unnatural sine waves. In nature- which includes musical instruments- there are lots of things (like ggc's rain forests) that produce ultrasonic sounds. But unlike the test sine wave that exists unnaturally on its own, these are all mixed in with and riding on top of lower frequency fundamentals. When a leopard growls the powerful menacing part of the growl is down low. But the part that tells us how far and in which direction is for certain a lot higher in frequency. High frequencies attenuate with distance a lot faster than low frequencies. The frequency itself is enough to point us in the right direction. The balance of frequencies however can be used to tell us how far. It is to me just plain nuts to think we evolved over a billion years by staying alive, and yet somehow managed to do so never knowing how far away we are from being eaten. This is nuts. Absolutely nuts. For sure this stuff happens unconsciously. Has to. If we had to sit around thinking and analyzing we would be eaten alive. There is no time. There isn't even time for some of this to be processed in the cerebral cortex. Studies show that when shown an image of a snake the visual response time is faster than it would take neurons to go from the eye to the visual cortex. The response is, in other words, reflexive. There is no reason to think the same does not happen with sounds. Do predators hunt only in daylight? |
What would you set as the lower limit of music reproduction for a speaker to be called full range?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you look at the link above
giving the fq range of all classical instruments,
You will see
60hz -2k hz
is the low/high of 90% of the orchestra.
Now I just hada experience of a 96db wide band driver.
I found ita bit thin and female vocals not accurate.
I found the davidlouis 91db far superior in sonics vs a 10x's more expensive wide bander,
Seems each wide bad offers something different, just like xover type speakers , each is completely different from the others.
The little DavidLouis 4 incher delivers all the body in this 60hz-2k hz that i need ina midrange.
But to answer your Q. 40hz is the very bottom,
20hz-40hz is nothing but a fantasy, These fq;'s are so rare in classical makes this area nothing but a empty bag.
Same for any fq's over say 12k,, nothing but a fantasy.
The only fq's that really amtter in any speaker, horn, wide band, low db sens etc, plannras, ribbons, etc etc , A-Z speakers, any speaker that was ever made....
The only fq's that count is the 60hz -say 3khz tops, really 2k.
But i'll extend graciously to 3k.
This is where classical music is performed.
We should all drop the fq range specs of speakers as a distraction,
The only thing that really counts, Is how does the speaker voice the 60hz -3k hz.
thats it.
This is why I feel my Frankenstein really voices these fq's as a grade A/B speaker.
The weak link in the Frankenstein is the davidLouis in the 200hz-1khz range, , only here hasa slight edge on the fq's.
Bottom is sweet, top is sweet, Its in the middle fq's where there is a slight *edge*, Which is why I give my Frankenstein's a A/B grading. ,
Beats Vandersteens, Class C speakers. Thats for sure.
Beats Wilsons as well. Class B/C speakers.
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@ggc
I mean this sincerely, thanks for posting those links. I’ll have a good read with and try to keep an open mind. |
Since Asked.. For those that care...
Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.2000.83.6.3548
There are two factors that may have some bearing on this issue. First, it has been suggested that infrasonic exposure may possibly have an adverse effect on human health suggesting that the biological sensitivity of human beings may not be parallel with the “conscious” audibility of air vibration. Second, the natural environment, such as tropical rain forests, usually contains sounds that are extremely rich in HFCs over 100 kHz. From an anthropogenetic point of view, the sensory system of human beings exposed to a natural environment would stand a good chance of developing some physiological sensitivity to HFCs. It is premature to conclude that consciously inaudible high-frequency sounds have no effect on the physiological state of listeners.
To measure human physiological responses to HFCs, we selected two noninvasive techniques: analysis of electroencephalogram (EEG) and positron emission tomography (PET) measurements of the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF).
EEG has excellent time resolution, is sensitive to the state of human brain functioning, and places fewer physical and mental constraints on subjects...On the other hand, PET provides us with detailed spatial information on the neuroanatomical substrates of brain activity. Combining these two techniques with psychological assessments, we provide evidence herein that inaudible high-frequency sounds have a significant effect on humans.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0114/the_world_beyond_20khz.htm
To fully meet the requirements of human auditory perception I believe that a sound system must cover the frequency range of about 15Hz to at least 40kHz (some say 80kHz or more)... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290557870_Design_and_Evaluation_of_Electronic_Circuit_for_P... A plasma speaker produces sound through an
electrical arc. It works by heating air, causing nearby air molecules to vibrate and expand.
This releases a pressure wave, which is heard as sound...
The primary advantage of a plasma speaker for sound
reproduction is that there is no diaphragm and therefore
no mechanical mass. This means a plasma speaker has
the potential to reproduce sound with high fidelity up to
150 kHz. |
I have systems that are 3 dB down at 45 Hz, 24 Hz and 20 Hz, the latter augmented by a pair of powered subs that are 3 dB down at 16 Hz, which is well below what is audible (although it can certainly be felt). The latter are used only for video, not for normal audio listening.
I'd draw the line at 30 Hz for realistic reproduction of orchestral music, but I find the system with the highest roll off the best for listening to strings and unamplified music (ironically they take up the most space as they are electrostatic panels).
Do you miss much by not being able to go below 30 dB at a listenable volume? Probably not unless you are a video fan and have a system able to reproduce it all. And much of the time you aren't hearing the fundamental note but rather the higher harmonics anyway.
It is fun to sometimes put on some of the relatively few full size organ recordings with some content below 20 Hz but you can't really hear anything down there, you feel it, and may hear the overtones. Not a huge number of organs that can reproduce 16Hz anyway - 32 foot pipes take up a lot of space. |
@mozartfan
Not saying I believe it... I'm interested to know where the information is published. BTW you need to consider the audible harmonics so if you rolled off at 2k it wouldn't sound so great... I'm sure you know that but thought I'd just be clear. |
