This is what a big dealer told me the other day. Dealer speak or right on the money? Would very much like to hear opinions of the many knowledgeable ARC users on Audiogon. Thanks
randy-11 , When Mercedes came here in late 50's they couldn't give them away, sold them as same price as in Germany. Only G.I's knew them and that as German taxis .
In sixties came back and sold them for over twice German price and the rest is history . Of course we all know Consumer Reports is a liberal rag who lies about how unreliable they are .
A pretty smart scientist said," what you can measure doesn't matter, what matters you can't measure' . Science is as much a religion as religion is
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. You're not quoting a famous scientist; you're quoting Robert McNamara, a businessman. Worse, your "quote" is a paraphrased misquote of what he said, which ended with: "
The fourth step is to say that what can't be easily measured really doesn't exist. This is suicide."
To suggest that religion is as inherently valid as science is absurd. Scientific facts can be repeated. Religion is based on faith.
But we are way OT here and, as you already stated:
No, I am quoting William Cameron, a famous social scientist . Science is based on faith as well and that is obvious . One easy read is ,"How Science Mimics Faith " Tory Rodriguez Scientific American March 1, 2014
Gents and ladies - just answer the question please. The ref5se is much much better than an LS27 based on auditioning both in my system. So it is possible that an LS28 is closer but it is highly unlikely that it is equal or better.
Not sure that logic necessarily follows. 5Se was introduced in 2011 - plenty of time for improvements to be made. But the question remains unaddressed. Does anyone have any experience comparing the two preamps? Anyone from Audio Research able to shed some light on the question?
"... the price of BMWs during the 1980s. In the 1970s and earlier they used ot cost about the same as a Buick"
1970s and earlier BMW NA was not even in play. But that aside, drive a 1980s Buick and a BMW 3 series of the same era - 320i, back to back and you'll see why their prices has risen steadily since. Poor example at many levels. I have a number of friends and relatives that have uber expensive audio/video systems and they know their gear inside out and almost always shopped for best prices.
Anyone from Audio Research able to shed some light on the question?
That will not address the question either. Where do you think the "rumors" that the LS28 is 'superior' to the Ref 5SE are coming from? That's like asking the fox if he will eat any of your chickens if you let him into your hen house, and expecting an honest answer.
ALL manufacturers will claim that their new current lineup is superior to their older, discontinued lineup, or they don't stay in business very long. The marketing idea, is to sell current product, not discontinued product.
I would agree if we were discussing a comparison of the Ref 6 and Ref 5SE, or LS28 and LS27. I've not yet seen ARC claim a new LS is better than a recently discontinued Ref series.
There are a lot of good points here but the most important one I think is simply older can be every bit as good as newer sometimes better. Good design is good design, and well designed well built gear holds up well. Also a well designed point to point wired tubed circuit is easier, and cheaper, to maintain over the long term. My amp and preamp in addition to being older, around 17 years of age on each, also use many vintage parts and sound fantastic. I just dropped a "new" Dac in my system that was built in 1995, it's the best digital sound I've heard in my system. Buy gear you like and if you really like it, hang on to it! Just my $.02.
Exactly. Tube design isn't exactly progressing further as the manufacturers would try to have you believe.
That's not entirely true. For example, the KT-150 tube wasn't available when ARC released the D-79. Similarly, the 6H30 tube wasn't available when ARC introduced the SP-10 preamp.
Other components - especially capacitors - have also improved with time.
I would agree if we were discussing a comparison of the Ref 6 and Ref
5SE, or LS28 and LS27. I've not yet seen ARC claim a new LS is better
than a recently discontinued Ref series.
I've seen/heard it before Larry. Same thing happened around 5-6 years ago, when the buzz was that the LS27 was better than the Ref 3. Same marketing technique.
There are a lot of good points here but the most important one I think
is simply older can be every bit as good as newer sometimes better.
@jond , +1, I agree. Interesting how when a "good" new unit comes out, there is no upgrade for around 5 years (eg. Ref 3). However, when a new release receives luke-warm reception, and may not be a step forward, a second model follows within a couple of years (eg. Ref 2/2mk II, and Ref 5/5SE).
ARC is not alone here, I recall when Cary released the popular V12 amp. A few years later they followed it up with the V12I, which many saw as a step backward. They quickly replaced it with the V12R which most felt brought back the goodness of the original V12.
Cleeds you are talking about minor parts differences, not different implementations/schematics. In fact there is some differing opinion on which of the KT Tubes is best, is there not? In my opinion Tetro's or not the last word and sound quality anyway. You need to look to the triode for ultimate fidelity. Which ironically was developed far before the tetrode was.
No one had addressed the original question - a sonic comparison of the 5SE and the 28.
I have not heard them in a comparison test. What I do hear sometimes is that "the new LS-xx" sounds better than than the Ref-y froma zz years ago. And not just from dealers either.
I think the only way to answer this is by direct comparison using a blind test on top quality source material.
I am just going to be happy with my LS25 Mk II (at least for a while)
@tomic601 I have a nearly new LS28 sitting in a box I can sell you for the comparison, lol.
I will say, it is 90% of the REF6 that replaced it, in my system (Yggy>REF6>ML CLX and BF210). Very much cut from the same cloth. Just lacks some delicacy and clarity as compared to the REF6. I was actually disappointing that the improvement with the REF6 wasn't greater, particularly given the substantial increase in price. I guess that is the definition of diminishing returns!!!
“I will say, it is 90% of the REF6 that replaced it in my system” +1, @docknow.
I purchased LS28 after auditioning both at my dealer. And I didn’t think the subtle improvements I heard with Ref6 were worth twice the price. Having said that, if Ref6 was at $10K price point, I would have grabbed Ref6 in a heartbeat.
I am very happy with my current setup of DAC9 > LS28 > VT80.
In my experience the REF's are always better than the LS's. I think this tactic is a gateway to get you out of your old REF, into the current LS and then ultimately to the new REF.
@hk_fan , +1. Mere marketing tactics, nothing more. ARC seems more prone to this hyperbole, and model turnover, than other companies though.
Now that is not to say that the LS models aren't 90% of the performance of the REF models. The law of diminishing returns hits very early in audio gear, and no manufacturer is immune. I would bet that the REF 6 gives you 90% of the performance of the REF 10.
My Transfiguration Phoenix S cartridge gives 90% of the performance of the Transfiguration Proteus. The same for my Allnic H1201 phono stage, 90% performance level of the Allnic H3000. Etc., etc., etc.
In the end, most folks pay a LOT of money for that small increase in performance. How much difference they spend, depends on how much they value the dollar versus how much they value the music.
Manepan is a speaker manufacturer, blind tests its products and will claim that their new current lineup is slightly or signficantly superior to their older, discontinued lineup, and they have been in business a very long time.
They will use an "i" for an incremental upgrade and change the digit for a bigger upgrade. They will ALSO tell you (as Wendell told me) "maybe you just want to keep your old ones). They are a Minn. firm, located near ARC. ARC seems similar to me (despite being sold a few years ago).
Tube tech. has not changed a lot but ARC does change to different circuits and different models of tubes.
You can compare the added features of ARC products at the 3rd party web site that tracks all their products - things like relays to reduce signal paths, thicker case material in places to reduce resonance (and changing from Al tops to poly-carbonate), better tube and component matching, etc. etc. all could improve SQ. Tube hour meters can help yo achieve better SQ too.
Do a real listening test (blind) to see if you want the latest and greatest.
Don't forget - they service everything they EVER made - dos that have value to you? Only Bryston has a better warranty/service policy AFAIK.
@tomic601 Yes, both were fully broken in. The LS28 I bought new on the trade-in deal this summer and it has about 1,000 hours on it. The REF6 was purchased used and had about 3,000 hours when I put it in the system and compared it to the LS28.
Seems most items have a price point category and a level of competition.
Audio Research apparently places their "REF" series in the same category as other products of the same price point.
In my opinion, when you are in the high end of audio play back equipment, Jaw dropping differences are very rare. I really haven't heard serious Jaw dropping differences in a while. I have and do hear differences all the time. But they are subtle. The questions to me are 1) am I there yet? 2) are the differences such that it "justify" (that word again) me coming out of pocket for this "upgrade", 3) can I afford this upgrade?
I am definitely not in the amp of the month club. I upgrade when I feel something is missing and that new piece fills that gap. or (and I think many of us are in the category also), a piece comes along that is as good or better than your original piece and some one offers a price that you simply cannot walk away from. That does happen.
I "upgraded" from a REF 3 to a REF 5SE last year. REF 3 to REF 5 wasn't worth the change. The differences weren't that great to justify it. However, The REF 5SE was enough of a difference. Don't get me wrong. Unlike some I have read hear on Audiogon, just because one upgrades from one piece to another does not invalidate the original piece. I would tell most people (if they cannot afford a piece in the REF 5SE or REF 6 range to definitely get the REF 3. Heck, I'll tell people to get an SP 11 or SP 15 also. With new tubes, these rock). But back to my point, I purchased the REF 5SE at a really nice price for me. Almost couldn't pass it up. But, just a quickly, I found out about Audio Research's trade in/trade up policy. They offered me more for my REF 5SE towards a REF 6 than what I paid for it. Also, the REF 6 was a demonstration unit from Audio Research called an R unit. or some such. It was used by a reviewer and returned to Audio Research. So, I got it at a really nice price. Also, It only had 24 hours on it. I felt good about the purchase. And before I returned the REF 5SE, I got to do direct comparisons between the REF 3, REF 5SE and REF 6. Oh boy, what fun.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe that the LS 28 is better than even the REF 5SE let alone the REF 6. However, I know there is trickle down technology in the LS28 and you really can't go wrong with it either. The REF 6 is at another level. Same as the REF 10. Wow, what a piece of equipment. Great sound. If I could get my hands on one for a "price I can't walk away from", I would probably do so.
I recently auditioned the LS28 and Ref 5SE at a dealer. All else (Wilson Sasha DAW, kimber cables, arc ref250 amps, Linn akurate source, room position) remaining unchanged - the ref5SE offered a marginal improvement in presence, weight and sound stage over the Ls28. Tonality was virtually indistinguishable. Slightly better bass with 5SE. I cant numerically quantify the improvement - but i'd say it falls under the diminishing returns category. If it takes a spectacular system to reveal the marginal difference - i cant imaging how in an average users system the 5SE would outshine the LS28. That was my objective take - YMMV
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
