very reasoned opinion. need more like this. so much money is paid for a “difference” sometimes its just that. a difference. might be better..might not
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I recently auditioned the LS28 and Ref 5SE at a dealer. All else (Wilson Sasha DAW, kimber cables, arc ref250 amps, Linn akurate source, room position) remaining unchanged - the ref5SE offered a marginal improvement in presence, weight and sound stage over the Ls28. Tonality was virtually indistinguishable. Slightly better bass with 5SE. I cant numerically quantify the improvement - but i'd say it falls under the diminishing returns category. If it takes a spectacular system to reveal the marginal difference - i cant imaging how in an average users system the 5SE would outshine the LS28. That was my objective take - YMMV |
Seems most items have a price point category and a level of competition. Audio Research apparently places their "REF" series in the same category as other products of the same price point. In my opinion, when you are in the high end of audio play back equipment, Jaw dropping differences are very rare. I really haven't heard serious Jaw dropping differences in a while. I have and do hear differences all the time. But they are subtle. The questions to me are 1) am I there yet? 2) are the differences such that it "justify" (that word again) me coming out of pocket for this "upgrade", 3) can I afford this upgrade? I am definitely not in the amp of the month club. I upgrade when I feel something is missing and that new piece fills that gap. or (and I think many of us are in the category also), a piece comes along that is as good or better than your original piece and some one offers a price that you simply cannot walk away from. That does happen. I "upgraded" from a REF 3 to a REF 5SE last year. REF 3 to REF 5 wasn't worth the change. The differences weren't that great to justify it. However, The REF 5SE was enough of a difference. Don't get me wrong. Unlike some I have read hear on Audiogon, just because one upgrades from one piece to another does not invalidate the original piece. I would tell most people (if they cannot afford a piece in the REF 5SE or REF 6 range to definitely get the REF 3. Heck, I'll tell people to get an SP 11 or SP 15 also. With new tubes, these rock). But back to my point, I purchased the REF 5SE at a really nice price for me. Almost couldn't pass it up. But, just a quickly, I found out about Audio Research's trade in/trade up policy. They offered me more for my REF 5SE towards a REF 6 than what I paid for it. Also, the REF 6 was a demonstration unit from Audio Research called an R unit. or some such. It was used by a reviewer and returned to Audio Research. So, I got it at a really nice price. Also, It only had 24 hours on it. I felt good about the purchase. And before I returned the REF 5SE, I got to do direct comparisons between the REF 3, REF 5SE and REF 6. Oh boy, what fun. As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe that the LS 28 is better than even the REF 5SE let alone the REF 6. However, I know there is trickle down technology in the LS28 and you really can't go wrong with it either. The REF 6 is at another level. Same as the REF 10. Wow, what a piece of equipment. Great sound. If I could get my hands on one for a "price I can't walk away from", I would probably do so. enjoy |
Manepan is a speaker manufacturer, blind tests its products and will claim that their new current lineup is slightly or signficantly superior to their older, discontinued lineup, and they have been in business a very long time. They will use an "i" for an incremental upgrade and change the digit for a bigger upgrade. They will ALSO tell you (as Wendell told me) "maybe you just want to keep your old ones). They are a Minn. firm, located near ARC. ARC seems similar to me (despite being sold a few years ago). Tube tech. has not changed a lot but ARC does change to different circuits and different models of tubes. You can compare the added features of ARC products at the 3rd party web site that tracks all their products - things like relays to reduce signal paths, thicker case material in places to reduce resonance (and changing from Al tops to poly-carbonate), better tube and component matching, etc. etc. all could improve SQ. Tube hour meters can help yo achieve better SQ too. Do a real listening test (blind) to see if you want the latest and greatest. Don't forget - they service everything they EVER made - dos that have value to you? Only Bryston has a better warranty/service policy AFAIK. |
@hk_fan , +1. Mere marketing tactics, nothing more. ARC seems more prone to this hyperbole, and model turnover, than other companies though. Now that is not to say that the LS models aren't 90% of the performance of the REF models. The law of diminishing returns hits very early in audio gear, and no manufacturer is immune. I would bet that the REF 6 gives you 90% of the performance of the REF 10. My Transfiguration Phoenix S cartridge gives 90% of the performance of the Transfiguration Proteus. The same for my Allnic H1201 phono stage, 90% performance level of the Allnic H3000. Etc., etc., etc. In the end, most folks pay a LOT of money for that small increase in performance. How much difference they spend, depends on how much they value the dollar versus how much they value the music. It's an individual choice that we all make. |
“I will say, it is 90% of the REF6 that replaced it in my system” +1, @docknow. I purchased LS28 after auditioning both at my dealer. And I didn’t think the subtle improvements I heard with Ref6 were worth twice the price. Having said that, if Ref6 was at $10K price point, I would have grabbed Ref6 in a heartbeat. I am very happy with my current setup of DAC9 > LS28 > VT80. |
@tomic601 I have a nearly new LS28 sitting in a box I can sell you for the comparison, lol. I will say, it is 90% of the REF6 that replaced it, in my system (Yggy>REF6>ML CLX and BF210). Very much cut from the same cloth. Just lacks some delicacy and clarity as compared to the REF6. I was actually disappointing that the improvement with the REF6 wasn't greater, particularly given the substantial increase in price. I guess that is the definition of diminishing returns!!! |
No one had addressed the original question - a sonic comparison of the 5SE and the 28. I have not heard them in a comparison test. What I do hear sometimes is that "the new LS-xx" sounds better than than the Ref-y froma zz years ago. And not just from dealers either. I think the only way to answer this is by direct comparison using a blind test on top quality source material. I am just going to be happy with my LS25 Mk II (at least for a while) |
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Cleeds you are talking about minor parts differences, not different implementations/schematics. In fact there is some differing opinion on which of the KT Tubes is best, is there not? In my opinion Tetro's or not the last word and sound quality anyway. You need to look to the triode for ultimate fidelity. Which ironically was developed far before the tetrode was. |
I would agree if we were discussing a comparison of the Ref 6 and Ref 5SE, or LS28 and LS27. I've not yet seen ARC claim a new LS is better than a recently discontinued Ref series. I've seen/heard it before Larry. Same thing happened around 5-6 years ago, when the buzz was that the LS27 was better than the Ref 3. Same marketing technique. There are a lot of good points here but the most important one I think is simply older can be every bit as good as newer sometimes better. @jond , +1, I agree. Interesting how when a "good" new unit comes out, there is no upgrade for around 5 years (eg. Ref 3). However, when a new release receives luke-warm reception, and may not be a step forward, a second model follows within a couple of years (eg. Ref 2/2mk II, and Ref 5/5SE). ARC is not alone here, I recall when Cary released the popular V12 amp. A few years later they followed it up with the V12I, which many saw as a step backward. They quickly replaced it with the V12R which most felt brought back the goodness of the original V12. |
analogluvr3 Exactly. Tube design isn't exactly progressing further as the manufacturers would try to have you believe.That's not entirely true. For example, the KT-150 tube wasn't available when ARC released the D-79. Similarly, the 6H30 tube wasn't available when ARC introduced the SP-10 preamp. Other components - especially capacitors - have also improved with time. |
There are a lot of good points here but the most important one I think is simply older can be every bit as good as newer sometimes better. Good design is good design, and well designed well built gear holds up well. Also a well designed point to point wired tubed circuit is easier, and cheaper, to maintain over the long term. My amp and preamp in addition to being older, around 17 years of age on each, also use many vintage parts and sound fantastic. I just dropped a "new" Dac in my system that was built in 1995, it's the best digital sound I've heard in my system. Buy gear you like and if you really like it, hang on to it! Just my $.02. |
Anyone from Audio Research able to shed some light on the question? That will not address the question either. Where do you think the "rumors" that the LS28 is 'superior' to the Ref 5SE are coming from? That's like asking the fox if he will eat any of your chickens if you let him into your hen house, and expecting an honest answer. ALL manufacturers will claim that their new current lineup is superior to their older, discontinued lineup, or they don't stay in business very long. The marketing idea, is to sell current product, not discontinued product. |
"... the price of BMWs during the 1980s. In the 1970s and earlier they used ot cost about the same as a Buick" 1970s and earlier BMW NA was not even in play. But that aside, drive a 1980s Buick and a BMW 3 series of the same era - 320i, back to back and you'll see why their prices has risen steadily since. Poor example at many levels. I have a number of friends and relatives that have uber expensive audio/video systems and they know their gear inside out and almost always shopped for best prices. |
schubert04-05-2017 5:28pm A pretty smart scientist said," what you can measure doesn't matter, what matters you can't measure' .Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. You're not quoting a famous scientist; you're quoting Robert McNamara, a businessman. Worse, your "quote" is a paraphrased misquote of what he said, which ended with: " The fourth step is to say that what can't be easily measured really doesn't exist. This is suicide." To suggest that religion is as inherently valid as science is absurd. Scientific facts can be repeated. Religion is based on faith. But we are way OT here and, as you already stated: You need not take me seriously |
randy-11 , When Mercedes came here in late 50's they couldn't give them away, sold them as same price as in Germany. Only G.I's knew them and that as German taxis . In sixties came back and sold them for over twice German price and the rest is history . Of course we all know Consumer Reports is a liberal rag who lies about how unreliable they are . |
randy-1104-05-2017 4:18pm ... the most famous is the price of BMWs during the 1980s. In the 1970s and earlier they used ot cost about the same as a Buick; but sales actually increased greatly as prices rose steeply.This isn't scientific, because you have multiple variables, including the infamous decline in quality of American cars during this same period. In fact, just as the sales of BMWs went up, almost all foreign auto manufacturers gained US market share during the same period, and for the same reason. You could also read Veblin's Theory of the Leisure ClassThat's a pretty old text, but still valid. What Robert J. Stanley did was develop current data on wealth. I encourage you to read some of it. A lot changed during the 20th century. But, we are drifting far OT here. |
" There are not a few people that will buy something that costs 50K who would not touch exact same item were it priced at 25KDo you have anything that supports this claim?" I do. There are many examples but the most famous is the price of BMWs during the 1980s. In the 1970s and earlier they used ot cost about the same as a Buick; but sales actually increased greatly as prices rose steeply. I forget what this phenomenon is called ("Inverse something or other") but the BMW example is frequently cited in econ texts. You could also read Veblin's Theory of the Leisure Class |
schubert04-05-2017 12:12pm Seen it happen a hundred times on everything from autos to audio ,watches to rings , shoes to suits .I pay attention, schubert ... I pay plenty of attention. So I don’t know who you refer to when you reference "everybody." I trust Thomas J. Stanley’s hard data much more than your solitary claim. But, feel free to share some of your data with all of us here and maybe I’ll take you seriously. I'd surely like to see your data about $50,000 suits and shoes! As I said, there are many mistaken notions about wealth. Researcher Stanley admits he harbored them, too ... until he did the actual research! |
schubert There are not a few people that will buy something that costs 50K who would not touch exact same item were it priced at 25KDo you have anything that supports this claim? There are many mistaken notions about wealth and wealthy people. The researcher Thomas J. Stanley did some of the groundbreaking work in this area, and his data certainly conflicts with your claim. |
So true, Schubert and JMC. Brooks Berdan had customers who bought Jadis or VTL pre's and amps instead of the Music Reference he also sold, and Wilsons instead of Vandersteens. At one CES in the late 90's, while eating steak and drinking wine (Vandersteen likes his meat and spirits), Richard told us of dealers who encouraged him to raise his prices, so that his speakers would be perceived as a more prestigious brand. Instead, he designed the higher priced but also higher performing models 5 an 7. The man has integrity. |
There are not a few people that will buy something that costs 50K who would not touch exact same item were it priced at 25K . Very true. There are a LOT of folks out there with FU money. VAC’s top of the line products were less than $20K each until they released the Statement line a couple years ago, now each chassis will cost you $50K a pop. And guess what? Folks are lining up and offering to pay more $$$ to have their VAC Statements made in custom colors. Go figure. VAC is not alone, look at ARC’s Anniversary and Ref 10. Just about every single manufacturer has a top of the line item today that is at least 2-3 times the price of their top of the line 8-10 years ago. The audio industry is simply a reflection of the global economy. The rich keep getting richer, and the poor poorer. The industry is just chasing the money, by giving their clients what they want. |
