ATN160ml Beryllium MicroLine Stylus on AT150e body

If it sounds fabulous why change.

In my view, with vintage cartridges, the most difficult challenge is finding one with a stylus and cantilever in excellent condition ( if not new ). You can always buy another body sans stylus.

I have an original of the Pepper Adams album. One of my favorites. 

dover

You are right of course, I'm not parting with it.

IF anyone is ever tempted to try Beryllium, I can tell you, my memory is correct, it is definitely superior, and you get the added benefit of light tracking.

No microscope photo, you just have to risk it,  this seller used parts (unisound card was in the box), and Samauri Seller both have 30 day returns, 

I am asking/searching for information regarding any performance differences between the 150e body and the 160ml body. Then, armed with facts, I will ask seller for a partial refund due to the fact it is not what he or I thought it was.

of nine at160ml's listed on hifishark, 8 are in a headshell, so no confirmation it is a true 160 body. The one loose 160ml without a headshell has a stylus and cost more than I paid.

I do not see any discussions about using an AT160ml stylus in a 155 or 150 body, yet it fits properly like any AT Stylus I ever messed with 

I have an AT14sa, also tracks at 1.25g, Shibata on tapered aluminum. I got one for a friend also, my memory a bit hazy, yesterday I had to remove mine from the headshell to see it's label on it's covered up top for confirmation, it is a poor location choice for product id.

noromance

you mean the original Enja issue? It would be fun to compare. As I mentioned, my Inner City re-issue is thin, flimsy, sounds surprisingly good. Identical front and back cover.

I expected more comments, oh well,

I have listened more, now to more bass content, and other even more familiar full range and vocal content, and I am happy to say that I got lucky, I love everything I have used it for, and thrilled I am back to 1.25 g tracking.

I use my NOS AT440ml Microline on Aluminum up here in my office for 1.25 tracking. It was essentially unused because I preferred the Shure V15Vxmr beryllium I broke for two reasons: it’s beryllium cantilever and it’s 1.0g tracking, and the option to lower the damped brush for warped lps was more important with prior TT in prior location.

Next I will compare the beryllium to the saphire to the boron to the aluminum, but I’m gonna ask a friend to join me for that.

I’m gonna write the seller, ask for a partial refund, see what happens, it’s not important, but it also is not what was described.

Cost was $265. Sounds awesome, but not what seller or I thought, so I figured I’d ask for a 1/3 refund,

Seller gave me the $90. refund I asked for plus less tax.

sold as used_parts1, but ’unisound’ card was in the box, I see that for many listings from Japan.

this Luxman PD-444 is listed, with the identical photo by at least 7 different sellers, just search PD-444, and scroll down, easy to recognize the photo.

PD-444 Search on eBay

same Luxman Two Arm TT PD-444 listed by many sellers

I have strongly suspected that the 'From Japan' sellers on eBay are all the same single person with many accounts.

In this case, many different people are selling the same item, that is the opposite of what you are thinking.

I think Unisound is huge, they clean it up, take photos, and let others try and sell it on a commision basis.

@elliottbnewcombjr "would you return it, try to get one with a true AT160 Body?"

I have original AT160ML, AT150E/Ea/MLX, and new ATN replacement styluses.. It seems original AT160ML body is earlier development, which used thinner wire, thus resistance and inductance is a bit higher than all AT150E/Ea/MLX (same body). This is a GOOD thing, because lower coil resistance/inductance reduces sensitivity to phono cable (R/L/C, shielding and phono-pre input capacitance. AT150 bodies sound clearer in the 5..20kHz region than AT160ML, in my setup using Accuphase AD2820 phono pre stage. AT150MLX (discontinued) uses the same body as AT150E, but has boron cantilever, and these days considered top of MM carts’ in mid price range!  

westcoastaudiophile

Thanks for sharing your knowledge about these wonderful cartridges. You didn't mention but obviously know about their wonderful sound, and I assume also value the light tracking, this AT150e body/ATN160ml beryllium/microline stylus combo happily tracks at only 1.25g.

I joined the forum, got a lot of help here, and began changing things just before Covid in late 2019, ended up completely revising 3 systems: Main (back to tubes); Office; Garage/Shop. Then, after creating my 3 arm TT, and finding a great Sony SACD Player xa-5400ES recommended here, I restored 2 pairs of AR-2ax speakers. Had 2,500 then Inherited over 4,000 lps, mostly Jazz played once or twice, much great Mono content prior to Stereo LP's in 1958. Gave away/sold over 2,000 LPs, more need to go.

Lately I have been assembling a small collection of alternate cartridges.  

My 'long in memory' reference favorite is the Shure V15Vxmr, MicroRidge on Beryllium Cantilever that tracked at only 1.0g. I used it (until I broke the beryllium cantilever) in my SME 3009 II Arm (which I renewed with help from SME) on my Thorens TD124 TT (which I renewed with help from Thorens).

All correspondence by mail in those days. I'll never forget the reply letter from SME: expecting a price quote, SME simply trusted me to pay, and shipped me the parts with an invoice here to the USA. Made me feel like a trusted gentleman.

@elliottbnewcombjr you’re welcome! I run those ATs at 1gf without problems, after tonearm maintenance complete..

How do you know when a cartridge is "happily tracking"?

listen jazz, piano, voice etc, or use Ortofon Test Record Vinyl LP if you’d prefer adv. measurements! 

Dear @westcoastaudiophile   " AT150E/Ea/......"

I'm sorry but you have a misunderstood about that those ones are a little " better " than the 160ML, let me explain it:

the 150E was designed in November 1979, the 150Ea in April 1983 and the 160ML in December 1982. 

The inductance is the same in the 150E and the 160ML and a tiny lower in the 150Ea however the Frequency Response in the AT 160 ML is way better than in both 150E/Ea: 5hz to 35khz in the 160ML against 10hz to 23khz in the 150EA.

Now, those cartridges came with the same cartridge body shape but the cartridge motor in the 160 is way better and with higuer quality level performance.

I owned all those models and still own the 160, even the 150MLX can't outperform the 160 and its spec is short to: 10hz-30khz.

In many ways the 160 can even and beats the 170/180ML that I still own too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

so maybe I'll keep my eye out for a true 160 body, with or without a stylus.

@rauliruegas dear Raul, thanks for your response! All I tried to explain was a 160ml requires more attention to phono-cable&pre, and using 160ml stylus in 150e body might will work better in some scenarios.. also, subsonic cut-off filter most likely will be needed w/160ml as well. As of AT-ML180/OCC, this is the best sounding/measuring AT MM cart out all other MMs in my collection, not sure why it is not the case in your setup. ML180 diamond is the finest under my Zeiss microscope as well. //regards

a few random finds to share

Fm ronco on audiogon

On a tangental note, I have fallen in love with Beryllium cantilever stylii.  ........ I'm listening to "LA 4  Scores!" as I type.  Might as well be in the club with them:-)

Cantilever Info from Orbray, formerly Adamant Namiki (2023, long after beryllium was discontinued)

https://orbray.com/en/product/jewel/product/cantilever.html

Dr Tominari of Dynavector Systems Interview

https://www.dynavector.com/pdf/hifiplus_issue8_40-48_dynavector.pdf

@westcoastaudiophile  :No it is not ( at least in my system ) and obviously the use of  subsonic cut-off filter is not necessary . Btw,all those AT cartridges runs according the AT spec in capacitance:100pf-200pf range.

Yes the 170and 180 are truly good motors and overall with an excellent quality level performance and NO the 160 does not beats either but even some characteristics and the 160 low/deep bass is a little better that's all.

R.

@rauliruegas 160ML at 200 pF loading cap resonates @ 16kHz, while 150Ea at 19kHz (ML180 res. freq. is 23kHz). you might know as there is significant phase deviation in frequencies closer to resonance point. I am tuning my phono-Rx resonances to be over listenable freq. range (20-20000 Hz). As of subsonic freq. you may look at low freq. driver membrane on empty track, unless you have transformers in sound path, you should see more membrane “silent slow” movements using 160ML. Subsonic HPF helps to remove unnecessarily sound modulation by unsymmetrical magnetic filed in speaker-driver coil interactions.

@elliottbnewcombjr +1 thx for cantilever info! have you seen boron material info as well? 

Boron Rod is at the top of the chart.

I have a few aluminum, straight and tapered, several boron rod cantilevers (my preference buying current production).

one vintage sapphire tube (Sumiko Talisman S), which I ASSUME might be above Boron Rod, as Sapphire Rod is just slightly below Boron Rod.

and this MM AT160ml was to get back to the lightest/stiffest: beryllium which I long remember from the V15Vxmr OEM stylus I loved/broke many years ago. I was still raising 2 boys at home in those years, not listening live much.

This AT160ml’s difference/preference is readily apparent on every/anything I play which surprised me, as the subtle difference between the boron rod and sapphire tube require concentration. And we expect MC to beat MM but "what you read in the bible ain’t necessarily so".

ronco’s "Might as well be in the club with them" says it best. It’s not just the best bass I ever heard (my primary remembrance), it’s the best ’every note’ I now realize. In addition to single concerts by name artists, twice a week for around 25 years, Age 45-70, I listened to live music, mostly Blues and Jazz in small clubs. It’s like that, even when I go to the kitchen for something, it sounds like I’m in a side room of a club, about to walk back in.

Of course, the source must have been done right to capture/create the ’involvement’, my word for what makes the difference, i.e. I find tubes more involving than SS..

........................................................

Boron:

my first MC choice after advice here was AT33PTG/II MicroLinear on Boron Rod.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-eu/at33ptg-ii

Wore it out, got new one 1/2 price AT’s trade-in policy

Using Jico SAS tip on Boron in my Shure MM V15Vxmr body, with optional non-damped brush up

bought broken AT33PTG/II Mono, Yahoo Auction, had Steve at VAS put his advanced stylus tip he calls ’P’ on Boron Rod to have Mono Cartridge with advanced tip on it.

bought broken Shure MX97e, with OEM damped brush, had Steve at VAS put his advanced stylus tip he calls ’P’ on Boron Rod to have Stereo Cartridge with advanced tip and damped brush on it. It fits both MX97e and V15Vxmr bodies.

..............................................

I’m gonna stay on the prowl, when I remember, for some other vintage survivors.

It was quite interesting to read that Sapphire and Ruby are essentially the same, just color difference when it comes to light/stiff.

lewm

It's obvious, and happiness is contagious.

rauliruegas

lewm

You two and others have been here a long time, I am always impressed by your knowledge when I peruse past threads.

and I miss chakster

I cut and paste this and that, however I forget quite a bit these days, even re-discovering things I wrote just a few months ago.

Are there any links to fundamental sources or articles you can share with us,

thanks, Elliott

I am not sure what you are responding to.  Is it my weak joke about "happy tracking"?  Sometimes I just cannot resist a good straight line. Pun intended.

yes, your joke of the week

I just re-discovered from Shure's info, the Shure Cantilever I broke so easily (it shattered after a drop of about 1", I'm still mad)

not a rod, not a tube, it was a MicrowallBe, only .0005" thick

"Trackability is the stylus' ability to stay in contact with the record groove walls at a given tracking force. The most demanding signals on a record are usually high-level, high-frequency sounds and sharp transients. Mistracking of any signal can cause record groove damage that permanently reduces future reproduction accuracy.

Trackability can be improved by increasing stylus tracking force at the expense of record and stylus tip wear.

The V15 achieves high trackability without making these sacrifices.

The V15VxMR's Micro-Ridge stylus tip and low ENGLISH effective-mass MICROWALL/Be stylus structure almost double previously achieved high frequency trackability at 10 kHz - at an optimum stylus force of only one gram!

Beryllium MICROWALL/Be Stylus Cantilever for Lowest Effective Mass Ever! Beryllium has extremely low mass and high stiffness. These properties result in superior performance, however, only when the material is geometrically optimized. The ultra-thin (0.0005-inch) beryllium MICROWALL/Be tube, shown in Figure 1c, has the lowest effective mass and highest ratio of stiffness to mass of any stylus cantilever ever, resulting in unprecedented high-frequency trackability.

Below is the Stiffness to Mass ratio for the three different types of beryllium cantilevers shown in Figure 1 (inside back cover). The physical characteristics of beryllium allow a longer length low-mass stylus structure. The resultant longer cantilever achieves the proper vertical tracking angle for a better match to the recorded signal and lower distortion"

Proper, meaning what Shure chose, 15 degrees, which is why they are named V15

Want a light tracker: Get these two parts: $480. plus tax

V15Vxmr body, broken stylus $265. usd

New Jico SAS on Boron $215.

I have this pair, member above tracks his at 1.0g, Jico gives range 1.0 to 1.5g. I track at 1.25 as the cantilever is boron, not the original that tracked at 1.0g that was Microwall Beryllium Tube.

or, track a used OEM at 1.0g

Used V15VxMR with OEM Beryllium Stylus $495.