Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

So knowing that our senses are so misleading how can the audio subjectivists rely solely on their hearing? 

The bottom line in audio is how the system sounds. Some of us have multiple decades of experience putting systems together. If I sit down to listen, the only thing that is important is the sound coming out of the loudspeakers. I don't need to have my choices validated by data. Measurements are a semi-interesting side bar discussion at best. 

Stop feeding the ASR Trolls. 🧌🧌🧌🧌🧌 I know they like to eat 🪱 but please stop. Let it die. Doctor Dick er Cyndyment.

Stop feeding the ASR Trolls. 🧌🧌🧌🧌🧌 I know they like to eat 🪱 but please stop. Let it die. Doctor Dick er Cyndyment.

Sure, people dare voice views you don't share and they must be ignored and called "trolls."

And yet it's the ASR folks are called closed minded and "dogmatists."

Oh the ironing....

@russ69 The high-end market is very strong with more choices than we have ever had. There is a shift away from the brick and mortar business model but online and direct sales are booming! Business is good.  

I am pleased to know that your business in high-end audiophile gear is good.

I think that it is important for everyone to know this for future reference.

I think to understand ASR you have to look at things from a psychological + demographic + herd mentality.  The hobby is a bit of a "lone wolf" hobby and many in it have tried to find the truth by finding a mentor or others that share the same views.  I think sites like Audiogon are best for the "free thinkers" while ASR has both but also contains a highly vocal population of people who rally round the leader and attack others that don't share their views (which are not necessarily the views of their pack leader but rather the group mentality there).  You will find them lurking and attacking in any thread where someone talks about how something sounds, how something is enjoyed, etc. when it cannot be substantiated by a meterman.  I think there is a problem there but not one that their leader can fix if he even wanted to, which I don't think he does.  They are his "generals" and like generals in the military, some are not so smart and others just want to keep their place in the pack.  I've been on the internet since it started and I have to say that it is one of the strangest sites I have ever seen.  It is useful and worth a checkup every now and again (if anything to help decide what NOT to buy) but has always reminded me of a bunch of parrots in a cage where one parrot has only learned what he has heard the other parrots squawking.  

And yet it's the ASR folks are called closed minded and "dogmatists."

Oh the ironing....

Your thread on ASR was closed. Who has the open mind again? 

 

I am pleased to know that your business in high-end audiophile gear is good. I think that it is important for everyone to know this for future reference.

I'm sure this is sarcasm but unsure how you think that is funny? 

but has always reminded me of a bunch of parrots in a cage where one parrot has only learned what he has heard the other parrots squawking.  

The AVS forum has the same herd mentality, might even be worse than the ASR forums. At least the ASR has tons of measurements to look at.... 

Stop feeding the ASR Trolls. 

You are right, I've made my points, nothing more needs to be said. 

Your thread on ASR was closed. Who has the open mind again?

 

It was closed because Amir prefers his site to be about audio gear discussions rather than skirmishes over different web sites.  He'd prefer that the emphasis NOT be on attacking other web sites,  including audiogon.  Funny you are trying to spin that as close minded or dogmatic, while people here continue to attack ASR.

He's not shutting down discussions between "subjectivists" and "objectivists" on ASR: there are tons of threads on the subject, even stickied threads that are endless debates. 

So, no, sorry that spin doesn't work.

The issue is whether someone is actually open to arguments and evidence for another position, and it's clear that some here are dismissing Amir with a dogmatic foot-stomping "I Don't Have To Listen To You" attitude.

Amir is open to any claim about audio gear; he will just ask what type of evidence you have for the claim and examine it.  If it's just yet another "I Can Hear Things You Can't Measure" claim, then he's utterly right to be skeptical and frankly you can't do anything with such faith-like claims anyway.

 

 

The AVS forum has the same herd mentality, might even be worse than the ASR forums. At least the ASR has tons of measurements to look at.... 

You can say that again!

@russ69 I'm sure this is sarcasm but unsure how you think that is funny? 

Some childish women may interpret facts as sarcasm or being funny.  To that I have no retort.

@prof  Well, something about power cords not being cast as unimportant in your prior post to electrical engineers is WRONG!   My 3 year neighbor who has an expensive high end system including YG Sonja 2.3s, Meridian Ultradac, Audio Research SP28, etc and good other cabling, computer based listing using CDs transferred to it thought the same as you as to power cords.   He was an electrical engineer for 30+ years.  He used Pangea power cords on his equipment.  The sound was not good. Bass frequencies were a mess.  The reproduction of the frequency range was very ragged with some frequencies standing out and some recessed.  Hearing a bass played on his system was awful.  

I lent him an Empress ($300) 7 year old GroverHuffman power cable for his amp.  He was blown away.  The bass started to sound coherent.  He still had this spacey sound, undefined highs.  He knows how good my lower cost system is.  He purchased six GroverHuffman Pharoah power cables ($750 each) to replace all his Pangeas.

I now enjoy going over to his home and listening to music.  He is up to 2 am like me listening.  The system is truly high end now.   He still has no explanation why electricity in power cables differ, only that different design and material cables work there too.   

This is not an ad for a specific cable.  It is a rebuttal to anyone who says electrical engineers don't see a difference in power cables. 

@rtorchia Most of the subjectivists here, like the OP, are pleased with the components they own and that is very good. You like what you hear which is all anyone can ask. So what ASR says about your stereo shouldn’t bother you. If I had some of these systems, all connected with the most expensive and exotic cables, I’d sit back and enjoy the music, and refrain from insulting Amir, ASR, and most of all science.

You are correct, what Amir says about my system doesn't bother me.  It is his defamatory twisting, out of context statements about me in this forum and his cohorts at ASR.   I didn't call him a fraud like so many at his site call so many high end companies/owners.   I do consult measurements when/where they are available and relevant.  I generally do not want a speaker that is difficult to drive if it has a combination of low efficiency and low impedance with high phase angles.  I don't want a speaker with a ragged frequency response.  I don't want an amp that has rapidly increasing distortion into easy loads (or anything above 3% THD).  There are so many other factors.  I am not a subjectivist or objectivist.   I will not purchase gear based on tests alone.  Just because I purchase gear only after auditioning it does not make me a subjectivist either.   

 

My next post will give you an indication of what I consider dubious (except I've actually heard/encountered most of these products).  

there are tons of threads on the subject, even stickied threads that are endless debates. 

@prof 

 

That alone gets my respect (not that I place any importance or value on my respect)

It is a rebuttal to anyone who says electrical engineers don't see a difference in power cables. 

No, it's another story of hearing differences in power cables without controlled blind listening tests. 

of course, blind listening tests being worth practically ~SQUAT~, as human hearing is a continual self controlled near unconscious moving target of a variable.

To make such testing (blind) valid, first we have to put human hearing in known quantified straight jacket of a box and call it nailed to the wall as a fact in eternity.

And we can’t. We can’t do that at all.

Blind listening testing regimen is a great idea!... but... if all the facts in it’s attempts in being a chain of logic are not in stable reliable definition, it turns to a giant steaming pile.

 

What they have found is that blind listening bits have to be limited to what, 5 minutes and then no more than an hour of this, and to then correlate that across many many groups of said listening to then come to a generalized conclusion?

HEY!..what do you know. That sounds a lot like the sighted listening tests of audiophiles who work at audio magazines and websites.

You know, that system many many hundreds of them developed across decades of work toward trying to get it done right.

@fleschler "So what ASR says about your stereo shouldn’t bother you.".

 

However, It can be an annoyance though if you happen to follow a recommendation based on a unit-test that produced amazing measurements. To then blindly buy the component based on those amazing test results. Install it, listen to it for a while, spending a lot of time - - and then to realize its nothing special at all, not musically engaging, dull, boring, flat, bleh. Then engage the return policy, pay for shipping back to retailer. More loss of time, cost. Been there and done that first hand. Tried it for the sake of learning. Wont make that mistake again.

Lesson learned - yes. Don’t follow measurement reports alone. Test it in your own system, your gear, your ears, your room. You might even prefer something that does not measure nearly as well and sounds very musical to your ears. 👍

 

The OP will have to admit that his original post was quite combative. He is very fortunate to have such a nice system and above all to be pleased with it. I think most ASR people would agree with that statement, even though they might evaluate the components differently because of their interest in science and engineering. Indeed, the OP was more restrained that many of the others, but all the vituperation against ASR isn't productive, and people are likely to be arguing about science versus subjectivism ten years from now. How many centuries have people been arguing about empiricism and religion? Burning people at the stake doesn't do anything. 

 

fleschler,

He was an electrical engineer for 30+ years. He used Pangea power cords on his equipment. The sound was not good. Bass frequencies were a mess. The reproduction of the frequency range was very ragged with some frequencies standing out and some recessed. Hearing a bass played on his system was awful.

I lent him an Empress ($300) 7 year old GroverHuffman power cable for his amp. He was blown away. The bass started to sound coherent. He still had this spacey sound, undefined highs.

 

As I wrote: Most electronic engineers - the ones who are not trying to sell you those products - will explain that. And the few who DO believe inevitably have only anecdotes for the claim.

It is zero surprise that you’ve just provided another anecdote...no supporting evidence.

Please keep in mind that just "being an engineer" doesn’t guard anyone against the influences of sighted bias. Just as "being a scientist" doesn’t stop any scientist from experiencing bias effects. That’s why it’s the METHOD that is important and reliable, not "the person." Every scientist who makes a claim has to provide objective evidence that can be vetted.   "Take my word for it, I'm a scientist" won’t do.

It’s the same in audio. An engineer who is using an unreliable method like sighted listening is JUST as fallible as anyone else and can hear things that aren’t there.

Sorry...that’s just how humans work.

This is not a claim that ’therefore you and he were not hearing any difference.’ It is merely pointing out that just believing it, and claiming it, doesn’t advance the conversation at all.

You say that there were very clear changes in frequency response, both highs and bass. What you are describing is easily measurable. Did your engineer friend measure these differences in the musical signal? If so, that would be truly novel data. But the fact no such data has been presented...ever!...as far as I’m aware, is a Big Red Flag in terms of the substance of such claims.

 

Well, some standouts may provide contrast, prof.

like the head of the calibrations lab for the biggest design campus of Texas Instruments. He was an 80 year old expert at the peak of his craft, that’s why he was there.

Now there’s a man who knew regimen and it’s correct application, regarding all forms of electrical measurement, and more.

He was an avid hard core audiophile. Cables, rooms, treatments, tweaks, the works.

Here are a few audio(?) products that are either close to irrelevant or not a good value/can be substituted at 90% or less the price.

1. McIntosh LB200 Light Box $1500.  Not an audio product.  99% irrelevant.  Useful for vanity purposes.

2.  Furutech DeMaga LP demagnatizer $3300.  Furutech's own Destat III at $300 does the same thing.  So do $100 demag guns.  Heard it, no difference than Destat III. 

Hint: Brushing one's tonearm prior to play, one swipe, with an anti-static record brush can be effective for free and is quick.

3.  DS Audio’s ES 001 Eccentricity Detection Stabilizer $6000  For the fastidious LP listener who will spend more time centering his LP than listening.  It is not easy to use and the results can be beneficial, but at what cost to one's time?  

4. Shun Mook LP Clamp $5600  Heard on a high end system (Wilson Audio Alexandria Xlf, McIntosh MC 1000s, DS Master 1 cartridge, etc.)   Yes, all four of us heard a positive benefit from using this versus not using a clamp.  Was it worth it?  Not to any of us.  The owner is a audio reviewer.  Actually, the system was extremely resolving with fantastic bass and dynamics.  But, it was fatiguing to listen to after an hour.  

These are just a few examples where dubious value of high end products exists. 

As to centering LPs, a turntable that was designed to do that were a Nakamichi TX 1000 from the 1980s as I recall. I heard it at Beverly Stereo back then.  It sounded great.  I could not afford it then.  

I went back yesterday and read some ASR forums that actually had intelligent posts concerning the audio market, cable opinion by John Dunlavy, COG (cost of goods) versus sale price, Chinese manufacturing capabilities (quantity versus quality wherein either can be made but most retailers find quantity economically superior).   Again, these forums devolve into banal and non-sequitur discussions including pages on pizzas and toppings, vacations, etc.   Analogies to cars was interesting.  So, I conclude that there are interesting forums with good information (that I already knew) but are very tough to get through because of the non-topic posts and remarks

@rtorchia You are correct. My initial post was combative. I was treated like dirt and felt others should share their experiences. I think this forum accomplished that. I get upset when defamed and having my words taken out of context and perverted. Just read my last post to see I am open minded.

@prof Just because we my friend did not conduct a blind test or measure the differences doesn’t mean the results don’t exist. That’s the Amir way of things, if it doesn't measure, it doesn't exist. The before and after were SO extraordinarily different, anyone who has good hearing could tell. It’s an anecdote but unless you think he and I and our friends who now enjoy his system are fools and self-delusional, it is valid. If you have a high end system (I didn’t say cost), try a Pangea power cable into your amp or pre-amp and then borrow a moderate priced or high end cable (that’s the difficult part-finding a reputable good cable) and compare. The Pangea maybe worse than using some computer IECs. It’s just terrible (and not only in his system, but in two other friends who long ago tried it in theirs).

Just because we my friend did not conduct a blind test or measure the differences doesn’t mean the results don’t exist.

Please be careful about using strawmen.

REMEMBER I wrote: This is not a claim that ’therefore you and he were not hearing any difference.’ It is merely pointing out that just believing it, and claiming it, doesn’t advance the conversation at all.

 

That’s the Amir way of things, if it doesn’t measure, it doesn’t exist.

No, his way of things is that if it’s audible it’s likely measurable. And if you can’t demonstrate something measurable, or at least hearing under conditions controlling for bias, then the good evidence is lacking for the claim. That’s a far more careful and reasonable view than the way you just expressed it.

The before and after were SO extraordinarily different, anyone who has good hearing could tell.

 

And yet...your engineer friend, strangely, didn’t have the impulse to do any engineering - e.g. measuring to find out what explains the obvious difference the cable made. Maybe he didn’t want to. But if that’s the fact, once again we are left with no more evidence than "I’m Sure I Heard It."

I have in fact tried a variety of expensive AC cables, Shunyata for instance.  With one of the cables I could swear it obviously changed the sound of my system - "darker" and "more lush."  I didn't even know if I still liked the sound of the system with that AC cable.   But I also knew, despite my quite strong subjective impression, that we can fool ourselves.  So an engineer family member helped me do a blind test between the Shunyata against the standard $15 AC cable.  The result, once I didn't KNOW which cable I was listening to, was no sonic difference.  There was no "darkening" or "more lushness" in the sound to indicate one sounded different than the other.

This can be humbling stuff, and a real lesson about just how strong imagined subjective impressions of sound can be.   Most audiophiles haven't had that experience, but it would be nice if more did.

 

unless you think he and I and our friends who now enjoy his system are fools and self-delusional,

Again, this is a strawman. Falling to sighted bias doesn’t make anyone a "fool" it makes them human. As I said anyone, no matter the training, is vulnerable to imagining differences.

It’s fairly amazing how this fact about human nature just doesn’t seem to ever land for some folks.

It may be an ego-bruiser to accept "maybe I was actually wrong, maybe I DID imagine a difference." But sometimes it takes putting aside pride to learn something.

 

fleschler, please understand I don’t mean to imply any hard feelings or claim I’m Absolutely Right about all these issues. I’m just trying to rationally defend a certain viewpoint. You and I share much more in common regarding audio than this little disagreement. Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I’m a mixture of both sides of this discussion. My primary system consists of all components that Amir recommended (and I am very grateful for his reviews). But my secondary system is powered by an old circa 2005 British made Creek integrated that I enjoy having and listening to. But no way it measures up to the Class D stuff, in my estimation. 

In your biased opinions.

 

@prof  the word is irony.

Oh the ironing....

And no just sick of this thread that would have been killed by Amir on his forum.

Just like ASR.

Sure, people dare voice views you don't share and they must be ignored and called "trolls."

@prof not updating a thing and gfys. 🦑🦑

@prof Yes, we do have a lot in common. However, if you read all my posts, I am a 20+ year beta tester for a boutique cable manufacturer who is devote about not ripping off customers (under $1000 for his best cables and about $350 for his lesser ones). He loses sales because they don’t sell for more/audiofool anticipation that more expensive equals better.  (He is not a good businessman, but a genius just the same-it takes him two hours to manufacture a pair of ICs or power cables).

In that vein, I have auditioned and/or tried many high end manufacturer cables and found most of them color the sound, alter the sound or just sound bad (e.g. very expensive, giant magnet in line High Fidelity cables-defunct finally although there are still many adherents that they are great). Some just sound better than others. But at what price?

The Pangea power cables my friend used on his high end system are both cheap and sound bad on three systems. He (and his music friends) are elated that his system sounds like the $1/2 million he said he spent on it. He kept changing amps because he thought there was something wrong with his sound but couldn’t point to it. He tried $60,000 D’Agostino amps and lost $22K reselling that. Once he heard just one power cable on his PS Audio BHK250 and his redesigned Dynaco 70 (radical) he was convinced that power cables make a difference, contrary to his prior stubborn belief that they don’t.

That is not proof but coming from me, a guy whose tried and heard so many power cables, should have some credence. I also have a great deal of recording and mastering experience as I’ve noted. My friend’s system had a radically, out of balance sounding frequency response and weird ambiance/soundstaging. He gladly enjoys company (72) and you are welcome to hear his (and my) system.

@fleschler , many thanks for staring this thread. You have a nice way of communicating in a transparent fashion whether or not you agree or disagree with something, it never feels like you are "disagreeable. I liked your post in particular about how if you get the room right even more entry level gear will be very satisfying.

Just really surprised this thread is still going.  Have fun storming the castle and stuff. 😂

@prof

It was closed because Amir prefers his site to be about audio gear discussions rather than skirmishes over different web sites. He’d prefer that the emphasis NOT be on attacking other web sites, including audiogon. Funny you are trying to spin that as close minded or dogmatic, while people here continue to attack ASR.

I hope you don’t take offence, but I’m a bit less sanguine about that. ASR’s founder closed their corresponding thread a short time after my last reply to him, and more specifically after @laoman posted Darko’s letters page including his exchange with Amir. My experience is that he often closes threads when he realises his views won’t be the primary focus or won’t prevail.

In the thread on that exchange at ASR, I suggested to Amir that going for the jugular against Darko’s previous guest (Cameron aka GoldenSound, with whom Amir has previously engaged, demonised and banned on ASR) was tactless and made him look like a bit of a nutter (I think Darko likely concluded that an hour or so conversing with Amir would be less than edifying and demurred). Amir said he considered a more tactful offer too much of a compromise. Darko asked if being right was really worth the aggro. And so on. I doubt Amir wanted to re-visit that episode here.

He’s not shutting down discussions between "subjectivists" and "objectivists" on ASR: there are tons of threads on the subject, even stickied threads that are endless debates.

The sticky thread on measurements at ASR (for example) is a declared catch-all/resting place for posts (moved by moderators) that originally appear in reviews and an attempt to contain criticism/discussion of ASR methodology. Sensible to do that I think, but I wouldn’t interpret it as encouraging said discussion. It’s more the case that objectivist vs subjectivist debate would take constant vigilance to suppress, and that thread is an easier option.

But keep these comments in context, there's a fair bit of good info and discussion at ASR. It's a rough with the smooth thing for me.

@kota1 Thank you Kota1.  I appreciate your reading my elaborate responses.

Here's a Darko sponsored video that I have problems with (the video, not Darko)   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3QHfH9Nho&t=1833s  

I posted these questions after viewing it: 

 

I don't know if Darko can answer some questions that I ponder as I watched this video. I note that the elaborate construction of the cable is evident.

However, it isn't manufactured in a clean room, the cable is exposed to the elements and everyone is touching the cable with their bare hands. I don't know if contaminants will affect the sound (probably not) but could effect its' longevity.

Are the copper elements really of lower quality (OFC only) or are they 6N (for the price it would appear higher quality wire would be used, unless the design eliminates the necessity of high end wire).

The other question is more personal, why does the engineer have maroon(?) colored finger nail polish. I know it's personal, but does he have a reason or is it a personal fashion statement? I am not casting aspersions, just curious as I don't see that often (especially the strong color).    

This is some strange company based on this video in my opinion.  Talk about no measurements!

I own Cardas ultra-silver phono cable in my modded SME IV arm since 1989.  The thinnest internal phono cable I've ever seen (and requires magnification and tiny forceps to solder the pins to).  Sounds great though.  

@rockrider 

I firmly believe our current state of knowledge cannot fully describe the sound quality that will result from a given system/room. 

 

You're not alone.

I don't think anyone has made such a claim.

As stated earlier, even Amir doesn't believe that measurements alone cannot predict better than 70% of how a loudspeaker will sound.

Perhaps we'd be better off trying to establish just what this remaining remaining unknown 30% might be?

Perhaps tone and texture fall into this category, as I'm not sure how they can be currently measured at present.

 

@rtorchia 

Given that the audio subjectivists are so skeptical of science, why do  they so readily believe wild and unsubstantiated claims concocted by manufacturers of all sorts of cables, power conditioners, power supplies, etc.?

 

Wishful thinking?

Overoptimism?

Double standards?

Or just plain desperation after years of chasing after that elusive 'perfect' sound?

Perhaps for audiophiles, enticing promises from manufacturers and designers are always easier to accommodate than challenging rebukes and warnings from well meaning third parties?

At just what point the individual loses control over his purchasing intentions and gives in to compulsion is no doubt a question of great interest to marketers worldwide.

 

 

A couple of posters who argued the ASR view did so respectfully and presented interesting and thoughtful views, for example @prof and axo, others not so much. What annoyed me and I suspect some others is Amir’s attitude. Fine, he has a viewpoint, however he hectors and attempts to shout down others of opposing views.

A few of us have been thrown off his site. You saw it here where his attitude was that he has come to teach us the right path. He has a highly inflated opinion of himself and brooks no opposition to his dogmatism. He belittles others, for example his comments about Goldenear in his exchange with Darko. He does not need to do this as it just makes him look like a prat. He mostly does the same when his testing methodology is called into question. He has clearly made mistakes in the past but usually refuses to acknowledge these.

In the meantime let’s follow the advice of Herve Deletraz, " Listen first, then measure."

ive devised a blind listening test of my own. i flip through a bin of records blindfolded and choose one at random. then i put it on, crack a beer, and enjoy the music. you guys should try this - VERY revealing, and unimpeachable on the scientific level.

@prof

 

You saying you blind tested a shunyata power cable vs. a cheap $15 is a strawman also, you can’t prove it to anyone here that you actually did that.

when all is said and done, if i need to know how something sounds, i'm simply going to go listen to it and make my own judgements

There is NO question that a device that measures better will sound more accurate(maybe not better depending on taste). The problem is we don't know how to measure audio products completely. We can do some measurements but the ones we do do not define a product. At minimum we need to do many measurements(and flatness and % distortion is far from sufficient) and also learn how to combine them for a final result. We can't do that now. The best we can do is identify measurements that are good clues and combine them with experienced listening however that's defined for each individual.

It is possible that some bad measurements can tell us that a product can't be accurate but we are miles from measurements totally defining accuracy. For what it's worth I am a measurements(and subjective person) and there are some measurements that I believe are good clues but they aren't the classical distortion and response ones. I recall my late friend Murray Zeligman who knew more about measurements than most  tell me the first thing he looked at for a speaker was the impedance curve because it was a big source of predicting speaker performance.

Receiving criticism for saying that no measurements can tell you if you will like the 'sound'.  Surely you buy hifi for how it sounds, that includes your preference. Tube amps always measure badly but many prefer how they sound. 

Hi my name's Dave and I have a degree in accounting and I have an expensive system cause I am rich. How dare those engineers who have spent their life learning about a topic I know almost nothing about tell me that what I believe is impossible!!  Well hey my name's Ralph and I am a musician and failed high school physics. I know how you feel. I know how things sound. How dare they tell me what I believe is impossible.

********************

 

I am not an engineer. When not one, not two, but every engineer who is not trying to sell me something tells me what I believe is not possible i have the humility to consider I am wrong. Not just consider, but will assume I am wrong till I prove otherwise.

 

That does not mean I lack creative thinking , or an open mind, or trust in myself, or a resolving enough system whatever that means. It means I have common sense and don't let my ego rule my behavior.

 

********

@prof I appreciate your posts and views. Thank you.  @rtorchia similar.

 

@laoman  you twisted Amir's words over and over. It was poor behavior. If you got any snark you deserved it.  Many of you twisted Amir's word if not outright lied about what he said. I am embarrassed for the lot of you.

.

 

Receiving criticism for saying that no measurements can tell you if you will like the 'sound'.  

 

@henry53 . The only thing that happened is some generalities were expressed about what people on average will prefer.  Many lies have been told about what was said. 

@juanmanuelfangioii  what's up with the attempts to censor?

Snif. You should be used to it over at ASR Cindy 

crymeanaudioriver

If that is really what you think then you are more unintelligent than I first imagined

. Go and tell your minion leader that behaving like a seagull is not appreciated. Flying in, squawking a lot, shitting over everything and flying out again. If this is the management style he displayed at MS, then God help us.

In the meantime you might like to tell him to clean up his act, stop insulting others, recognise that he has made mistakes in his testing methodology and exercise a little humility.

 

 

@juanmanuelfangioii  what's up with the attempts to censor?

 

Indeed.  Things are getting weird.