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Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy
"Audiophiles are Snobs" Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review. If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public. They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better. They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.
Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?
1,312 responses
If I had to describe my place in this division, I would say I’m looking at a much bigger picture. I work with the end product, the sound that comes out of my loudspeakers. I’m working for a sound that pleases me. Mr. Amir is looking at the microscopic details, the grain of the wood, if you will, and I’m assembling an entire landscape. The tools I use are different than the tools he uses. |
??? Our aim is the same as yours. We want maximum enjoyment out of our music and want to optimize our gear to get there. I believe in uncovering as much reliable data as we can about a product to aim in that journey. What separates us is where we get our data, and whether it is based on sound engineering and scientific basis, or not. But the final goal is the same. Is this speaker going to sound great for me? How about this amp? Will this aftermarket cable or power conditioner improve the sound in my system? Do I need a specialized USB filter? How about an audiophile ethernet switch? All of the above have answers. You could look to your gut and opinion of non-technical reviewers, or seek out specialized knowledge and data. If you get sick, you can go to a doctor or google for information. The final aim is the same: a cure. The doctor puts you through tests and examines you. Perhaps you call this "grain of wood." I call it proper diagnostic based on proven medical knowledge. |
How do you know this take away is true? Better yet, how can you prove this take away is true? Where is the proof point? At no time did you perform a controlled test like I mentioned in the video, correct? Without it, your conclusions are only yours. They present no value on the topic at hand. Indeed, they go against the consensus of audio research community which has tested these theories.
First, it is not according to "ASR." It is according to accepted audio science which ASR follows. That aside, no, the problem is not sighted bias directly. Your hearing is elastic. You listen more intently at times vs others. Your hearing system is bi-directional with the brain instructing how your auditory pathways work. This feedback loop relies on the task you give it. Tell the brain that you are testing something new and it will focus more and attempt to dig out detail, listen for transients, etc. And lo and behold, it "hears" improvements even if you thought there should be none. Or be negative. This is why the excuse that "I didn't expect it to sound good but it did" doesn't work. There is no pre-requisite as such although that is also another factor that pollutes the results. You need to put yourself in controlled tests, graded by others, with conclusions known in advance to see how good at these things. Just running experiments yourself and deciding you were right about this and that just doesn't work. As I showed earlier, audio reviewers performed horribly in controlled tests of speakers. Yet I am sure all thought they were great in telling performance of speakers. Please remember that all of us also exist in your shoes as well as ours. I like you hear things that later realize where not there. Have this happen to you enough times and you get sober and realize your perception is not what you think it is. That your intuition can be so wrong in audio. Measurements and understanding of how your electronics work is a powerful antidote to arriving at wrong conclusions. If I perform a digital null that shows your audio device didn't work differently when you upgraded its power cable, then that is that. |
I expect that what I see here is what many others will see while reading these sorry pages. A calm, experienced, knowledgeable, detail oriented, expert in this particular aspect of his field professional who is going up against a bunch of classroom bullies who are doing their attempted best at a character assassination.
Keeping patting yourself on the back every time you think you have a gotcha. It is pretty obvious you don't and you are either twisting Amir's words deceitfully or do not understand most of them. I think it is a combination of both. I will say this again in the hopes it sinks in. You should be ashamed of your behaviour. This may be an internet forum, but it is still real life. You are not in some video games where everything resets when you lose a life. |
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It's not me wanting anything. All I want to point out is that you say folks on this site are biased because they see the price and hence expectations increase. And I say that you are also biased because you see the measurements and then listen. So both parties are biased and not just the folks here. Whether you accept this or not - that is the truth.
See this is where we differ. Our hobby is to listen with our senses and enjoy. Your hobby is to measure and enjoy. I wonder if you spend a lot of time measuring the equipment, how much you time would you enjoy listening to music. But of course, it is your choice and I respect that.
Agreed. But these measurements don't consider the tons of variables that I described in my previous posts.
I don't throw rocks and I don't want you to answer anything. Just stop telling folks that measurements tell you everything. You need to understand that humans cannot measure something that they do not know how to measure it. There are many a science mysteries that the best scientists do not know yet. If you google it, you would find tons of articles. Eventually ( maybe 1 day or 1000+ years from now) humans will evolve and research will solve these mysteries. Black holes were unheard of in 1971. Yet they were finally photographed very recently. You have a degree in electrical engineering field and that is awesome. Kudos to you. But neural sciences and the other fields doing research are not your forte. You seem to portray on your site that measurements are the end-all. I disagree on that with you. |
@russ69 I think you misinterpret what @amir_asr is communicating. Amir has talked about what most people like. There seems to be some merit to that. A lot of us like a good Cabernet, but some like it drier and some like it with a bit of residual sugar. If you tell me it is super dry like an Arizona desert in the summer, and Amir's test equipment says no, it is quite sweet, with a specific number that represents sweeter than 50% of all Cabernets, who is right? (The correct answer is Amir). |
Never seen an audio fluffer before, not as good as this one. All the best, |
@tonywinga +1 |
@crymeanaudioriver "you have made many derogatory comments” which one? |
@westcoastaudiophile , I am disappointed you are insisting I do this. Do you truly believe you have not been making derogatory comments? I am not the only person who will see these following comments as derogatory.
...... +1 "He is in over his head”- yep
@fleschler +1 on putting ASR reviews “under review”! :-)
Thanks Amir for response! I can ignore your test results now!
Amir, your equipment and tests are “too ancient” .... I would recommend you to put disclaimer on your test results “test results are based on my personal skills and knowledge” to avoid legal issues.
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Our aim is the same as yours. We want maximum enjoyment out of our music and want to optimize our gear to get there Then right in this thread you also said: We are not a charity However, I am OK with you coming over here to spam us then, OK. So, you made a wise decision to at least to focus on maximum enjoyment of music. First, the actual enjoyment part it is ALL subjective so leave your fantasies at home. We deal in BOTH things you can measure like sinad and things you can’t measure so clearly like jamming or rocking out, bliss, chilling, whatever. I saw the pic of your system, nice speakers, good. So, if you want maximum enjoyment of music try: 1) Having a drink 2) Asking members here about their EXPERIENCE (I know, you can’t always measure that but with practice, it works, trust me) 3) Please realize we actually DO want the same thing, it isn’t a fantasy. You can also measure some things that are purely subjective. If you start a thread at YOUR site maybe we can discuss sometime OK? If you want to start a thread here I am good with that too. Peace, out :)
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Yup. Those type of comments are par for the course here as it's taken for what it sincerely is: adult banter. The problem with acolytes like yourself is that you need to get out more often and grow a thicker skin. All the best, |
@tonywinga Exactly. This is my primary issue with ASR. Aside from going to war with some very reputable equipment makers, people who are directly accountable vs. a faceless brand of high-end gear and Amir and his minions claim a wide variety of skills and capabilities but literally don't know what they're measuring, how they're measuring it / how to use the tools they have and what their measurements actually mean. My favorite is that Amir only needed one speaker to test and supposedly in his anechoic chamber. Then proclaiming that the speaker was worthless based on the measurements - without even listening to it, properly placed in a room, with controls, etc. Or when he talked about speaker frequency response curves and claimed that his measurement of another speaker was superior because the manufacturer used a different scale on the response graph. Of course, he didn't know what he was actually measuring and what the measurement actually meant, and looked like a complete fool while taking himself completely seriously. Normally I don't really care about that stuff as I know what I know, but when it impacts the 'little guy' who's just trying to make a living selling legitimate gear (I'm not talking about pure snake oil here, I'm talking about people who have a legitimate product who are attacked by Amir / ASR with inaccurate information.) I do take issue with it. |
Terrible of them, I know. Why let them have common sense and expect more performance when you pay more? It is audio after all. We should make new rules for that expenditure. I pay for a supercharger option for a car. Company delivers it and it reduces horsepower. I should be OK with that according to that rule.... Regardless, I have no issue with recommending ultra expensive gear: they just need to have the performance that is comparable to devices at 1/10th their cost. If they don't, then I will comment and withhold my recommendation. |
Ah, you want me to be uninformed when I do my listening tests. As if not seeing the measurements somehow eliminate bias? Seeing the gear, etc. is not a concern of yours but accurate measurements are? Instead of typing, here is a video I produced on this very topic:
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Why do you wonder? What possible thing I have written that makes you wonder? Did I share a diary with you that showed no music listening? I listen to tons of music. I am retired so I have all the time in the world. Even when I am measuring, I am listening to music.
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You just "wondered" if I listen to music. That didn't require answering? That aside, you are the one saying "measurements tell you everything," not me. I have repeatedly stated that half of my reviews including listening tests. I also use other techniques like Null testing with real music. I have said that controlled listening test are the gold standard. Why isn't this message sinking in? But yes, there is no denying of the power of measurements. They cut through audio folklore like butter. Company claims this and that tweak reduces noise? Well, we darn well know how to measure noise even if they don't. They say this and that lowers jitter? Well, we measure that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Company says that this and that design produces the most transparent sound? Well, if distortions and noise are not competitive, then sure as heck does not do that. When you get sick, you don't want your doctor to take your temperature and blood pressure on the fear that "he thinks measurements are everything." Measurements do not have to be everything to be incredibly useful and powerful.. Go without them at your own peril. |
@dducat ,
Perhaps you would like to expand on who these companies are that ASR went to war over? Do you mean GR Research? You claim that ASR does not know what to measure, how to use their equipment, or how to interpret the results. Then you make a comment about a single speaker and an anechoic chamber. If you are going to jump in on this character assassination, shouldn't you know what you are saying? It took me about 5 minutes of reading the first speaker review on ASR to know they don't use an anechoic chamber. They do not need one. It took maybe 10 minutes to understand why Amir uses a single speaker. Perhaps if you ask him he will tell you.
This is not adult banter @nonoise , this is an out and out attempted character assassination. It is not done in jest. |
Finally this:
I managed the signal processing group at Microsoft which relies hugely on psychoacoustics. I know what I need to know about perception of audio. No knowledge of "neural science" is needed, nor do any of you have any. As to ASR, it is clear you have not spent much time there. We have a ton of luminaries there in audio discussing every aspect of audio. It is not just me. So disagree all you want. But don't mischaracterize me or the forum. |
All speakers in the industry are measured one at a time. No way you want to put two in there and have them create interference. If you did, you would not know the response of either one. You are repeating an argument you don't understand. So let me help you. The argument is why I use a single speaker to *listen to* NOT measure. Measurements are always done with one speaker. Ask any speaker company and they will tell you the same thing. On the topic of listening to just one speaker, it is what science says is best. It may not make intuitive sense to you but that is why you want to follow science. Not your lay intuition. I have a video on this topic as well:
Testing one speaker also sharply reduces shipping costs and lets me test more of them. Science is good for us sometimes! Try it. :) |
Make that very thin skinned. All the best, |
Medical Doctor is not an arts or science degree, it is a medical degree. In almost all jurisdictions in the world, the Faculty of Medicine will be fully independent from other Faculties. The general consensus in the medical community is that M.D. is an applied science degree. Due to the highly competitive nature, many doctors today also have a PhD in some aspect of medical science. The strongest links between medical faculties and other faculties is of course science. |
I don’t know. That’s why I called it "my takeaway" and not "my evidence" or "my proof". I was quite clear that they were sighted, subjective observations. And that I made limited tests for some possible confounding factors. I also used the word "speculation". I don’t know why you often appear to argue with straw men, and labour your talking points when they are already accounted for, but I don’t want to criticise tone, style or even comprehension as that’s counter-productive. If you care to address what I’ve said, feel free to tell me which of these have zero bearing on the topic at hand and/or go against the consensus of audio (or psycho-acoustic) research, and why: 1) long term audio memory is a more complex story, 2) bass is pretty straightforward, or 3) stereo image is the complex product of many factors (which the amp-speaker-room system contributes to). Those are the words you responded to.
I agree, and I’ve certainly had those experiences working with sound. Many times. But what about things we hear, that we later hear again, and again, accounting as best we can for the limitations of our perception and judgement? Now of course it’s possible that unconscious factors rather than actual sonics caused the difference I perceived between those devices (for example) but that’s also speculative. We can also differentiate to some degree between perception and intuition, especially with training and experience. The working hypothesis that every time we hear something unexpected, we are drunk, neurotic or hypnotised by marketing is an over-simplification. I’m happy to leave you with that. |
You twist posts per your liking. Anyways, I took quite some time to arrive at the speakers I have. There were some that were about $7k more than my current ones. But I did not really like their presentation. So if I had to go with your statement, I should have paid more and bought that other speaker expecting more performance because I paid more? I think you have a very wrong assumptions about folks here. When I take the pains to audition loudspeakers, I did not go in with the intention to buy the most expensive speaker I can buy. In fact go back to my initial posts from 2005. I used to have the Quad 21L before these current ones. They were not even there in the list of "to be auditioned" speakers. I just happened to see them at a dealers and asked for a demo. So probably that was a mistake and I should have gone for the more expensive ones? I suggest that you don’t assume things.
Like I said before - you will not digest the truth. According to you, folks here can be biased, but you are always correct and never biased. You are an ordinary human being. Nothing more nothing less. You have biases too, but not ready to accept.
Good for you. And completely understand now how you can afford so much time to measure and respond.
And yet you did not respond to my post on why different people hear the same sound differently. Like I said before, far too many variables to measure.
Again, you are ASSUMING here. Your problem is you ASSUME too many things. Why do you assume that I would not go to a doctor if I were sick? These statements are showing your frustrations. Is it because you cannot ban me on this forum? We are plainly debating on what each of us believes in.
So you are telling me that the Microsoft from a few years back was the best they can do and if further discoveries happen in the field of science, they will not adapt/accept them? Electronics in 1950s was much different than what humans have achieved today. New discoveries happen all the time - at a much faster rate. Just saying.
See that first statement? That is what is putting off many folks here and elsewhere. It seems like you are not ready to accept any more NEW knowledge and have a closed view. I humbly accept that I do not have the knowledge of neural sciences or any other related fields in that space. As for visiting ASR - I have done so occasionally in the past and have moved on, since that is something which does not interest me. I know what I like and I choose what I want. I do read mags, sites and user reviews. If you looks closely at my system, there is not a component that was highly recommended on many site. A couple of sites and user reviews - maybe. Of course the Oppo was an exception. But then many mags, site (including yours), folks recommended it and love it. I was not trying to mischaracterize you. All I wanted to point out that you do not know everything about everything. Like everyone else, you know something about something. There are many things that humans do not know - yet. Looks like a lot of frustration, when you are responding to my posts. You had to go back to my post 6 times and read them carefully and come up with 6 responses after picking and choosing what you wanted. I would have thought that a person who has all the time in the world would take time to go through the entire post, and think carefully about how to respond to it. But again - that is none of my business.
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@amir_asr , please stop with the home movies, if you want to drop some knowledge, all good. You say you are into technical discussion, why not drop in and discuss then, for example:
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@amir_asr you have already shared that you lack the time and resources to do thorough reviews. If you want to post videos try using a third party, this is just spam, after spam, after spam. Are you trolling to sell more name badges? No. I agree with @milpai That is what is putting off many folks here and elsewhere. It seems like you are not ready to accept any more NEW knowledge and have a closed view. Did you join this forum simply to keep spamming this thread with your propaganda? I don’t think you are attracting any new members, from these posts of yours. Flaunting your "financial independence", insisting how members should spend their money. I won’t bring up your poddy mouth attempt at humor. However, you can certainly learn a lot here- about how to make ASR a better audio forum, deal with your fantasies/phobia of the subjective side of audio, pick up some tips on whatever else you are interested in. |
Unless there have been some changes in the Audiogon management, which I am not aware of, you are not a member of staff. However, here you are with 111 posts, about 1/2 of them on this topic, acting like you set the rules and were elected leader of the club. You do appear to have elected yourself moderator of this topic.
This was your second post ever, attacking Amir. Given your attitude that you "own the place", should I assume you are new "former" account?
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In context to my earlier post to amir, which was: As an audio equipment reviewer, why do you choose not to actually listen (with music) to every audio component you review? Note that I already understand (from your prior post) that you do listen to speakers & headphones. I'm wondering why you limit actual listening tests to those and don't bother to listen (again with music) to amps, dac's, etc."
amir asked boxer12.... "Why would you trust what I would have to say about it? Why do you trust anyone? Is your room the same as theirs? You play the same music? Your ears are the same? You see the problem?"
boxer12 answers... 1. I wouldn’t, but it would be a human datapoint. Get enough of those right & I might trust your opinion (somewhat at least) 2. I do trust the opinion of some experienced audiophiles 3. No, but those I trust have room treatments of some sort. They listen to music & treat their rooms accordingly, as do I 4. Irrelevant 5. No & I’m well aware of that (also fine with it). Surprised you bring it us though. 6. Yes, you trust you’re measuring all the right things so human interface with the audio component is not necessary. |
@amir_asr "There is no wall at ASR. Hundreds of members join the forum from all walks of life. Only a handful get banned because all they want to do is argue and not provide any data to the conversation." THIS IS A LIE!!!! My first post was my personal experience with the CD trimmer. I shared that I purchased it very cheap to TRY it. I didn’t find it worthwhile (compared to destating a CD prior to play) and could make a big % profit reselling it. What was so wrong with that? Instead, immediate character assassination by your minions. I stated some more experience and opinions and whamo, I was constantly insulted. I hurled one back and voila! I received a warning. This kept going for an hour or two and I was banned. Everything I said in a neutral and explanatory vein was excised. The excision part of the statement was turned upside down and altered to state a negative rather than a neutral. I mentioned that I have underground power lines in my community. I didn't say it was good or bad but rare to have an outage. Those minions tore it apart giving it all kinds of meanings and of course, character assassination that I was professing that I am superior to them. I never stated any such thing and would not as I don't know any of them personally. Yeah, your site is really a nice place to visit-NOT!!! |
@amir_asr "Some of you know that I am the founder of a company (Madrona Digital) that does custom integration of electronics into very high end homes." I don't know your work (why don't you tell us about these custom high end installations)? When I was a commercial real estate appraiser, I had occasion to appraise some quite fancy homes in the late-1980s ranging in $5 to $10 million in value. I remember one Malibu Riviera home of $10 million that had Martin Logan electrostats mounted in the walls facing each other 2 stories high. Wow, that must have sounded great (terrible in fact). I saw rich homeowners hiring video and audio installers with $250,000+ systems that were terrible sounding (good video though). I take no credence in your company's installations unless 1. I know what components were used and 2. (unlikely to happen) I can hear the results for myself. |
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Fleschler,There are some regular posters on ASR who are quite patient and civil .However some are just arrogant and aggressive and intolerant of different perspectives and they also happen to be moderators.They are also all Americans.It did occur to me that might just be a sad reflection of how bipartisan and divided that society has become.I have American friends who have related how pervasive and toxic that "us and them' attitude has become and how glad they are to be out of it.It certainly comes as a bit of a shock to those that are not used to it.
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@crymeanaudioriver You are in league with Amir. I have no qualms about Amir's ASR testing equipment site. That's his business. I detest anyone who perverts a neutral statement I make into something that attacks another's character for that reason. This is what ASR minions and now Amir on THIS SITE has done!!! He has personally perverted what I did not do for his own jollies. He is an evil person. It is called Defamation.His malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation. That's me. "all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination" That's Amir (just like his site). Notice, he keeps posting more virulent posts. |
@crymeanaudioriver "A lot of us like a good Cabernet, but some like it drier and some like it with a bit of residual sugar. If you tell me it is super dry like an Arizona desert in the summer, and Amir’s test equipment says no, it is quite sweet, with a specific number that represents sweeter than 50% of all Cabernets, who is right? (The correct answer is Amir)." This comment is so wrong it is not funny and shows you know absolutely nothing about wine. Ask an MW what they think about this if you do not believe me. If this comment is an indication of similar knowledge about audio equipment, then I suggest you either read, listen and learn a lot more or go back to ASR and stay there. |
@jtgofish I mentioned two such ASR member posters who appear quite reasonable (one who has gotten lambasted like me) and another who posts but no one appears to confront him. I’m sure there are others. Note that my disagreements are character assassination based, defamation, not with his ASR business practices which I may disagree on but are perfectly legal (unlike posters who want to put high end manufacturers in prison for allegedly defrauding the public). So, it’s not us versus them in my forum, but defamation (the taking of a person’s good name is almost like killing them) and lack of transparency while uttering unsupported or undersupported assertations of equipment quality. Now this is not just most ASR members but Amir himself who commits defamation of character. |
Now addressing this bit in OP:
How on earth did this pass as an argument? "Some of the posters" listen to this and some other music? What if they did? That makes them less of a music lover and audiophile? You expletive!!! (reposted because I don't want to stoop down to his level) You are doing exactly what your minions did to me. Taking what I said out of context. I said one poster listened to a type of music which would be difficult to use to achieve an evaluation of the loudspeaker or system sound. I said that it could be appealing to that listeners choice of music. I NEVER stated that that listener's choice of music was wrong or anything about his character. You pervert other posters thoughts here as your minions do on ASR. Character assassin!!! |
OldHvyMec at ASR makes cogent and experienced statements concerning "ALL things BREAK-IN." He has the reputation to make that assertion, especially in relation to cables/wires and equipment of all types (including audio).HarmonicTHD member asserts "Cables are not mechanics. There is no wear, nor Burn-In, nor Break-In."Then JSmith and Axo1989 talk about pancakes, off-topic and irrelevant.This is a typical ASR dialogue.
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"If I had to describe my place in this division, I would say I’m looking at a much bigger picture. I work with the end product, the sound that comes out of my loudspeakers. I’m working for a sound that pleases me. Mr. Amir is looking at the microscopic details, the grain of the wood, if you will, and I’m assembling an entire landscape. The tools I use are different than the tools he uses." I am the same way. The sound which pleases me comes from a single fullrange driver mounted on a transmission line and powered by a tube amplifier. That's what I like. I listen to a lot of chill music and vocals are the most important quality for me. Try explaining that to ASR. You will be ridiculed. Tube amplifiers = trash. Fullrange drivers = trash. No experience or subjective listening necessary. It is trash. Shame on you.
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This neatly encapsulates what some may perceive as your apparent myopia, and the associated problem that many have with ASR. If you believe that the above is truly a shared goal, then why on earth would you insist that better measuring components necessarily produce better sound? Do you really imagine that those countless audiophiles who derive immense enjoyment from tube amplifiers, or Nelson Pass amps, would somehow find even greater enjoyment through the use of amps with lower distortion? Do you not understand that many, if not most of them, have spent decades optimizing their gear for precisely the purpose that you mention? Pass, as you probably know, conducts listening tests on his new amp designs, the results of which have typically led him to intentionally introduce some distortion. In other words, a high percentage of listeners in those tests preferred the sound signature of the amps with some added distortion. I think that part of the problem is that you, and many objectivists, conflate "best sound" and accuracy. Yes, you might reasonably argue that components with the least amount of distortion are more likely to reproduce recordings more accurately than those which introduce some distortion, but to then assume that such sound is necessarily "better" is a dubious leap. |
