I'm increasingly fascinated by the number of threads that have been created lately by OP's who have joined over only the last 2 months with less than 30 posts that all seem related to the importance of wires and tweaks. While I'm not dismissing the notion that everything matters in hifi (including digital cable), it seems that these topics vastly overwhelm thread topics that clearly would have more influence to hifi audio sound such as discussions of the sonic characteristics of various amplifier topologies, the importance of simplifying the signal path, and identifying fantastic speaker/amplifier synergies, etc...
If some unsuspecting newbie were to stumble onto this forum they would likely come away thinking that a fuse or a piece of wire are the most important elements towards obtaining wonderful hifi sound. This is unfortunate. For example, my discovery of listening to a SET circuit years ago paired with speakers possessing a high and flat impedance greatly outshines any joy derived from identifying the finest digital cable produced by man. I'm simply questioning the hifi priorities that this forum seems to be obsessed with lately.
I guess I’m not supposed to post here, but I will anyway. As a newbie this entire forum seems very divided. I’ve already gotten placed into categories after less than 30 posts. If you don’t want people to join or to stay around that is a great strategy. I started posting here because there are a lot of topics with fantastic information. I’m new at this audiophile hobby and have shared some things I have experienced. I’m sure some of my comments have gotten eye rolls, but I really am trying to understand all the different perspectives. I don’t have equipment worth bragging about (nothing exotic) and I haven’t owned very much either so my posts are limited to what I have recently experienced. As someone new to the forum the worst threads aren’t the discussions about the tweaks. The discussions on the Tekton speakers have been the worst.
The only issues that I feel need any kind of micro-management on this site are those of decorum and respect; something sorely lacking all too often as we all know. I’m sure that the OP’s premise is well intended, but I wouldn’t worry too much about “unsuspecting newbies”. I don’t think that there has been a thread advocating questionable “tweaks” that has not also had plenty of detractors; and very adamant ones at that. There usually are plenty of posts that present both sides of the coin on most topics. Seems to me that this, unto itself, is a great opportunity for a newbie to learn.
As far as the supposed “overwhelming” preponderance of discussions about “wire and tweaks” goes, I frankly don’t see it that way. A quick look just now at the first 20 “Topics” of discussion in the categories “Amps Preamps” shows 4 titles out of 20 that have anything remotely to do with wire or tweaks. In the topic “Speakers” only 1 title out of the first 20 has anything to do with wire or tweaks. Hardly a comprehensive analysis of the matter, but I suspect that this is indicative of the overall picture. Now, as far as posts in “Cables”, and perhaps “Misc Audio” as well goes, we would expect there to be a preponderance of discussions about cables and tweaks. No? There is plenty of solid and helpful information available here; it’s the interpersonal bs that gets in the way.
As I pointed out, I feel that the OP’s premise is well intended and I agree that there is always room for improvement in how information is shared. However, the OP admits, and please, this is not a criticism, but simply an attempt to bring a certain perspective to this issue:
**** interconnects (I can hear a difference but it’s subtle), and speaker cables (I’m very hard pressed to hear a difference in any ****
Personally, not only do I strongly disagree with that comment, but I feel that a newbie reading that could very well be swayed to not consider the very real benefits of quality cabling. However, probably the best thing of all is to have that opinion be part of the mix of opinions which will hopefully inspire the newbie to experiment and arrive at his own conclusions. All in my opinion, of course.
@jjss49 I'm with you on the stickies threads that should be available. As I am newer and not an engineer, some of the terms like capacitance or tube heaters require varying sources to understand and dig through and is very easy to get lost in in all the bickering and ideologies that goes on here.
As a younger and newer hifi enthusiast, it would be be nice to have a few threads to reference and to see more discussion about how gear is to own and how it sounds or feels rather than the guys that chime in to slander gear or provide some recommendation outside of the qualifications one has asked about.
@three_easy_payments -- is it fair to assume that your concern is not so much with the value (or lack thereof) of the suggested tweaks but the sudden onslaught of the 'presumably' newly-minted posters?
It's the onslaught of tweak-based threads that could lead to the suggestion that tweaks merit a very high (inappropriately so) audiophile priority. It's the balance of the conversation that I sense has shifted and wanted to raise this as a point of discussion in this thread. Whether just one person is behind the theme and is replicating names more quickly than Agent Smith in The Matrix is a totally separate topic.
A nice thread and all too true. Get the basics right and the fun starts. To some, the fun is enjoying their music, to others its the erector set, Rube Goldberg complexity that brings them joy. I think we all agree, its all good.
My problem with some on Audiogon today is the incessant need to gather disciples who can be brow beaten into submission to follow their gospel. I quite frequently reinforce that an audio system needs to live with the occupant rather than the occupant being forced to live with the model train like clutter witnessed on occasion here. It doesn’t make me right, but our home is more comfortable.
@jetter the particular person to whom you were referring who is unwilling to support Audiogon through the sale of their gear has still yet to sell their highly tweaked item on that other site. That either speaks volumes about the person, the item or quite possibly the dangers of trying to sell DIY highly tweaked gear. Maybe even a lesson what the marketplace truly thinks of tweaks when it comes to gear.
I try to avoid those threads where unkindness rules the day but sometimes its very difficult. Always get a second or third opinion and then act on the data you most trust. For instance, if I were to ever suffer an accident and have to rely on an xray at a strip mall walk in clinic, a second opinion would likely be in order.
I have only twice made a request of the moderators, both the same. Requests that even if I say so I think are excellent.
I asked the moderators if a separate topic category can be established entitled "Tweaks". In this way, since they do not have their own category, the regular overflow of discourse regarding tweaks into other categories would be limited. And for some of us with no or limited interest in fuses, stones, podiums, shumann generators, springs, cable risers, and other tweaks could easily just ignore the whole subject.
I am not passing judgement on these at all, just they are of limited interest to me compared to other topics, but if others are interested great.
@whart made me reflect on a point that hits very close to home. My entire audio journey and experience has shaped my current priorities and allows me to more deeply appreciate the gear and setups that I'm using today.
The hallelujah moments and the sonic disasters alike. All of the dead-end paths, Class D amps I didn't connect with, magical discoveries with triode circuits, improvements through effective room treatment, disappointments in a fuse etc....have all allowed me to more greatly enjoy and appreciate what I have today than if I had never had these experiences and simply started with what I own as of this moment.
femoore1228 posts I couldn’t disagree more. The way I read the OPs comment he was talking to you specifically and your feedback is what was requested. I see your insight as very important to this discussion.
Tweaks... There is no doubt that the core components are the foundation of a system. Is there still something that is locked away in the core components that can be exposed? I say yes. And to what degree, I say a lot. To start with an analogy, for a long time, I autocrossed on a 1+ mile challenging loop in a M3 in the San Diego Chapter of the BMWCCA. My stock M3 while potent, it was a bit tail happy, and after some very hard brake usage, the brake fluid boiled, and my driving was done for the day. While the M3 at its core is a great car, I later added Bilstein coilovers, poly bushes, thicker sway bars, wider and better Michelin tires, a wicked alignment with zero toe, Brembo 6 piston 380s up front, and 330-ish 4 piston brakes in the rear along with Motul 660 brake fluid, and other mods to increase performance. I went from mid pack in my class to actually winning 2nd and 3rd place on occasion in a higher class.
So it begs the question, how is it possible to spice up an already hot car? It's entirely possible. Switching gears and re-focusing on audio now, it is just the same; after trying it years ago, Symposium Roller Blocks, Symposium Isolation Platforms, and high quality cables, I am able to extract more out of my system. Tweaks, while they may seem like an odd topic, they do work. Now, tweaks will not overcome equipment that is not to one's liking, then absolutely yes, emphasis on a tweak is the wrong direction to go, but if one is satisfied relative to other gear, then tweaks to improve performance I think is an acceptable topic.
Now, tweaks will not overcome equipment that is not to one's liking, then absolutely yes, emphasis on a tweak is the wrong direction to go, but if one is satisfied relative to other gear, then tweaks to improve performance I think is an acceptable topic.
Totally agree with this. It's about the balance in priorities and being realistic of what areas move the sonic needle the most. Obviously we are all free to spend our money and set priorities as we see fit. I'm just inquiring into where folks have seen the most joy from their priorities.
Conversely, I just read this statement by a member on another thread and just can't relate to someone who attributes 50% of their wonderful sound to cables - but hey, that's just me. Please weigh in if you find cables provide 50%+ of your system's sound quality.
My system will still sound good to me as will my belief that the cables I purchased are easily 50% of the reason it sounds good.
"Tweakin' at the Tweaker's Ball", with sincere apologies to Zappa.
Cables of any type do not account for 50% of your hearing. With the caveat that you're not using 22g landline telephone as speaker wire.
Everything does make a difference...its up to you to determine where you get (or want) the difference to be at least cost effective.
Some of these tweaks remind of a kid here in town who put big fat tires on the rear of a Corolla and little skinny tires on the front. Saw the kid in a parking lot and walked up and asked how he liked the new "stance" of his car. He replied that it is way cool and much faster than before all while grinning with his accomplishment. He had to know it is a front wheel drive car!
The 'newbie' that posts claiming being relatively 'without clue' should be subjected to 'mho' about basic equipment choices....keeping in mind the purposed budget claimed. The 'kid gloves' response....
Now and then, there's the 'not-so newbie', returning or opting to upgrade; again, budget and/or desire(s) should steer the 'mho'...
....and then, there's 'everyone else' who basically is used to the sturm und drang 'here', and is aware of the drill. Which sometimes resembles devolving down to the unstated desire to take a bit in a cordless drill to the oppositions' head...or so it appears....Mho.... "Let those demons out of your misinformed head!" responses...
It's good to keep it 'lively', but the art of reading between the lines seems to be on life support at times.
For the most part most people here are cool. I started visiting Audiogon shortly after its founding in the late 1990's. I was one of the young guys then and benefitted greatly from the discourse. I received alot of great advice and have really enjoyed the site over the years.
Of course there will always be those who scream "THE SEARCH FUNCTION IS YOUR FRIEND" and "VINYL RULES" as well as the obligatory "TUBES ARE DISTORTION GENERATORS" but all in all, the same filter you use in real life will serve you well here.
Please do recognize that some people don't use their one hour of computer time at the institution wisely or with a great deal of kindness. They have so much to say and so little time to say it. Peace.
@nonoise ....you do, but opportunities for the application of it slip through like sand thru fingers...;)
*sotto voce* ...AG of itself is an 'institution', although of an 'open door' (Windows?) policy. Is it best to keep some more 'underfoot', or better left to fend for selves, trailing flotsam by the threads.....?
This Forum has become a daily education and treat. I am grateful and gratified. Almost all my system has greatly improved through judiciously scanning and reading the significant posts. Throughout my Audio journey, reading the magazine articles has been informative and educational but extrapolating truth from end user Forum members has directed me to many great elements that have elevated my rig toward “the absolute sound”. Amps, speaker cables, speaker platforms, and, yes, fuses have repeatedly raised performance when, every time, I thought it could not get better.
The M3 analogy is pretty spot on. Even buying a well sorted race car w solid win history still leaves up the question of how to go faster the next season …. There is also a rubbish bin of stuff that didn’t work…. One key concept buried in the thread title is… priority… car, driver, crew, tow rig, tire budget… i am guessing contact enhancer ain’t on the list, unless your electrical system is Lucas, then even quantum tunneling won’t help ya….
you pretty much nailed the psychology behind this recent tweakery. How
about helping me sneak a new bicycle into the house? My tactic so far
is that the more bicycles you have, the less likely one more will be
noticed. That approach sort of works with stereo equipment too. - mitch 2
I swapped out a 55" tv that was pretty old, it had a very wide bezel all the way around the screen, for a 75" Sony 4K tv. It took my wife three days to notice the newer TV, and that was after I tipper her off that something had changed.
She'll notice a turntable the second it's introduced though.
Jim, Had to laugh at this: "Build some reclaimed wood diffusers I call them Virtue Signaling Quadratic."
I did the same thing earlier this year with some large thick Styrofoam sheets that were used as packing material. The virtue signaling went out the window though when I sprayed them with a relatively toxic aerosol sealer.
All, I don't know if "diffusers" are considered "tweaks" or not, but highly recommend them nonetheless. It is one of the many things I've tried after reading about them on this site.
intended or not, this thread is turning out to be quite a good one with numerous posters entering the discussion with interesting angles and thoughts, and as such, it makes this a better place to spend time at (as opposed to, say a few nitwits who bicker constantly and endlessly about class d amps, and so on, without any useful exchanges of real information)
catching up on the posts, i would make a few furthercomments, in the spirit of lively discussion and hopefully constructive debate
-- my issue with many tweaks is when the cost becomes substantial, then i feel many lose the plot ... yes if you have a system you are veryhappy with, then tweak away to get the last few percent of perceived performance, but some of the tweaks get darned expensive, as cables do, some fuses for a system can add up to a grand or more, so one needs to wonder whether folks buying in are losing the big picture and suspending common sense about relative importance, versus upgrading a systemcomponent rather than tweaks - i remember the shun mook nonsense years ago... yes isolation and tuning of resonances can make a system sound marginally better, but when the stupid wood blocks with little metal tips start to cost thousands, common sense needs to kick that b-s sell job to curb
-- this is a discussion forum attached to a commercial site, and while the forum exists to drive commercial activity, i don’t see the point in talking about who pays what fees or lists gear here vs. on less costly sites as a value judgment on posters who do or don’t... those are personal economic decisions, it is not about what makes this forum good or poor quality (actually what makes this forum good are the wealth of posts and posters, past and present, with something substantive to contribute) ... a lot of us bought and sold lots of gear here, and the sales site changed its fee structure, so some of us took some of our business elsewhere... the change of economic structure of the site has moved sellers much towards dealers than individuals, so what does this have to do with the quality of forum?
-- lastly, to me, without getting too much into arcane car geek stuff, i feel the bmw m3 analogy cited earlier is misplaced... the context is wrong, bmw-cca autocross (leave aside racetrack driving where a factory m3 will melt in 2 laps in an experienced driver’s hands)... firstly, all the improvements made to that posters autocross car are in fact substantial, from brakes to suspension to fluids and so on, he is not changing the battery wiring to the alternator or changing a fuse in the fuse box ... but even so, secondly, go from a ’tweaked’ e46 or e9x m3 to a factory stock 997 gt3 and there is a quantum leap in overall performance (like going from a schiit modius dac to a chord dave or a weiss) - that is the difference between engaging in tweaks to getting an altogether vastly superior piece of gear (speakers, amp, what have you)
intended or not, this thread is turning out to be quite a good one with numerous posters entering the discussion with interesting angles and thoughts, and as such, it makes this a better place to spend time at (as opposed to, say a few nitwits who bicker constantly and endlessly about class d amps, and so on, without any useful exchanges of real information)
It would be wonderful if the tenor and spirit of healthy exchange gathered a momentum, sustaining into newly opened threads as well. It's very refreshing and I appreciate the feedback.
The reason for the increased interest in tweaks could also be related to all the marketing emails received when signing up to Audiogon. I got one today spouting a deal on cables. speaker cables are absolutely fabulous! The depth of
imaging has increased substantially. Clarity and detail has improved across the
entire frequency range
I would want to ask people in the know if this is true.
It would certainly be wonderful and I would make one additional suggestion:
As tempting as it may be and as justified as one may feel, DONT PLAY! (thicker skin). Ignore the jerks and provocateurs. What ends up happening often times is that those reacting to the bs end up behaving pretty much the same way as the jerk. Importantly, keep in mind that it is tricky judging the “tenor” of someone else’s written word; especially on an audio forum where, let’s be honest, not all have exceptional writing skill, hence ability to convey their complete and true intent.
+1 jjss49. If you're sinking thousands into your system, do something substantial like getting a significantly better component rather than spending the money on overpriced tweaks.
Interesting the people known for not trying tweaks don't seem able to even so much as entertain the possibility that people are talking about tweaks because they actually work.
Another thing I find interesting, they don't seem to care too much for the fact they are attacking one of the nicest kindest most generous members on the site. Not only is he unbelievably kind and gracious even when mercilessly attacked, but he is clearly deeply in love with his music, a subject on which he frequently waxes poetic. Finally of course it is clear the guy has little money and goes out of his way to stretch every dollar to the max. Yet here we are with a thread seemingly devoted to trashing mahgister.
Typical politician's tactic: if you can't win an argument, distort the terms of the discussion out of all recognition, and then start arguing about that.
Well, I can only speak for myself......I feel like I’m not wanted here because I speak my mind. I don’t owe you an equipment history, I don’t owe you much of anything, nevermind an "audiophile" resume.
If you ask me a question, I will answer it to the best of my ability.
I came here because I was tired of Facebook’s pages, to be honest.....
I own Tekton speakers. I had a good experience. *shrugs* YMMV.
This place doesn’t seem very friendly, just saying....
How many ID's did you create in late July all with less than 50 posts? And only posting on topics like Quantum Science, Tekton, and Fuses....something seems so familiar here.
@jetter Totally agree on @mahgister! What a class act. It would be great if he could weigh in on this thread and share his audiophile priorities with us too.
MC, yours is the first mention of Mahgister I can find in this thread. First you create a parallel derogatory thread (since deleted) and now this false narrative. What is it about the OP’s topic that is causing your reaction?
Probably because mahgister was driven off by the usual pack of bullies. The whole subject of the OP is to attack tweaks. Mahgister is (was?) our #1 user of tweaks. His whole approach stated repeatedly is once you have pretty good components your best approach is to tweak to get the most from them. The OP is the opposite. It is a total attack on mahgister. Even after you guys bully him off the site even that is not enough, you have to trash his legacy. Disgraceful.
@mahgister driven off? His last post was 4 days ago. This thread was started 2 days ago.
MC - your narrative is so contrived and no one is buying it...just give it a rest. The threads created by others over the past 2 days by forum members have been wonderful and I love seeing the great exchanges. No bullying, constructive banter...what a wonderful thing. I’m getting nice PM’s....all hoping that ding dong the witch is dead.
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