Bryston 4B3 vs Mac MC462 vs Pass Labs X250.8, OR... GRYPHON Diablo 300?

Most true high end companies are small, creations of one or two people, and many of them are not young. So there is always some risk. During its 30+ years of history Gryphon sold a number of pieces, especially in Europe and Asia, there should be places to service them for many years to come. Yes, some parts are custom or semi-custom.
For my future set up in addition to Gryphon I am considering Lamm, VAC and Allnic. I think, they are even worse in this respect, Lamm and VAC are basically one man operations and Vladimir of Lamm uses some very rare tubes and maybe something else too that you cannot easily get.
Shipping to Denmark would be very expensive but easy, you wouldn't have to even leave home, DHL or FedEX would pick it up. I would be more concerned about potential difficulties of communicating with Gryphon than about shipping.

Quite frankly, your concerns seem valid and would probably stop me from laying out this type of cash for the unit. Its the two big show stoppers, having to ship to a heavy unit to a different country for repairs and an unknown as to the future direction of the company.  Nowhere near the same financial investment, but I have Museatex-Meitner mono block amps, designed and manufactured by Ed Meitner.  After this company shut down one of the amps had problems.  If it was not for John Wright who worked with Meitner, there would be no easy avenue to repair the unit that is not of a completely conventional design.  As it is, the unit is being shipped to Canada for repair.  No huge deal, but it doesn't weigh 100 lbs either. So your concerns are valid.

You see, I said you'd forget Bryston after hearing Gryphon. Gryphon is true high end.
Yes, Flemming has left but I think he will keep an eye on what's going on. Regarding service, I suspect that if they pull out of North America they will service units sold here, you will just have to ship it to Denmark. Their model of communications with clients sounds a little arrogant and potentially inconvenient to me. But the risk is small, I would say.

Okay, I've completed a second audition of the Gryphon Diablo 300.  As I was prepared for the type of sound to expect, from the first audition, the results were far clearer for me this time.  I'll be proceeding with purchasing the Diablo 300.
I started testing driving the 802 D3's again, just as a baseline from where I left off last time.  In the end I didn't feel the need to switch out the speakers.  The huge dynamics, timing and drive, impressive 3D soundstaging, very solid and well developed midrange, and excellent bass that most all reviewers / posters have commented on were all there, and were all very impressive.  I believe that a good portion of the midrange quality is derived from the internal DAC module, with mids being well "grounded" as one pro review put it.  I noticed that this quality was not there when using an external (albeit much lower-end) DAC. 

Everything was very, very impressive.  At the end I even threw some poorer quality recordings at the Diablo to see how badly things would go, and it totally surprised me by making them sound great - even highlighting vocal details I'd never caught before on these crap mixes.  I thought the incredible amount of detail would surely make the Diablo tear these songs apart, but instead the songs really did take on the feel of a live performance.  These same recordings have bordered on un-listenable on my current rig at home.  It's paradoxical that a system that is so transparent and revealing in detail can still make poorer recordings/mixes sound musical and enjoyable - this is not typically the case.
I think my first audition went off the rails a bit for a few reasons:  1) Up to that point I'd been used to auditioning gear in my home.  While it is obviously better to test in your own space with your own gear, the mental shift to testing in a shop was also jarring, and 2) the first audition I used my own speaker cables for part of the test, and I noticed after I got home that one of the spade terminals had become slightly unscrewed, which would have slightly unseated the compression contact on one of the terminals, and 3) just the sheer capabilities of the Gryphon was not something I was expecting.  During the first audition, it felt a bit like seeing a 3D movie - stunning, but not an experience you necessarily want all the time.  However, this time around, I was just impressed and enjoyed the music.
While I'm planning on proceeding, the only slight concern I have is with regard to service, should I ever need it.  Shipping the unit back to Denmark for repair will not be cheap, however my guess is that this may only happen once in its (or my) lifetime.  Chalk it up to cost of ownership.  The other concern is that there are only three dealers in North America.  If Gryphon decides (again) they want or need to pull out of N.A. sales, there won't be any way to get service.  Gryphon states they do not provide any direct service or communication to customers; they direct customers to their dealers.  Finally, Fleming Rasmussen has now retired, and as Gryphon is a very small company (say compared to McIntosh or Bryston), I'd hope that they have a strong future even without their former leader who was heavily invested in all aspects of design, and I expect in other areas of the company operations as well. At the end of the day these concerns won't stop me from proceeding, but they are certainly considerations.  Their headquarters looks cool but it is tiny - you can see it from a distance on Google St View!  I guess these things just go along with a bespoke brand like Gryphon.

Best of luck and great listening with the Diablo Nyve! I read a review on it thanks to you. Truly unique design. Like how the first 10W is class A out of it.

I see. This ever-present power and will of the Diablo that go thru everything create this complicated impression.
They say it will drive almost any speakers. Maybe so but this doesn't mean it will match well with them all.
If you can afford buying and then selling if you have too, that's good, it gives you more space and time to make the final decision. 
 

I already offered to leave a deposit to bring the Gryphon home for a demo and dealer said they don’t do in-home demos, full stop. And I’d need to lug 180 pounds of speakers to the shop (which is not local to me), risking damage especially with exposed tweeters. I will go back for a second audition, and probably proceed with the Diablo even if everything isn’t 100% perfect to my ears with the speakers they have on hand (I will test using Sonus Faber speakers next, instead of the 802’s. If I end up having to sell (hopefully not), I know I could be happy with a less advanced but still very all-round capable and highly enjoyable Bryston 14B3 based system. At least, that is my thinking at this point.  

Theoretically, there might be a way - to bring the Gryphon home for audition or to take your speakers to the dealer's room. In reality, maybe not. This is a quite a big decision alright.

Sorry Morg, the shop had set up the 462 for me but the Gryphon was so unique there was no point in comparing with the 462, at least for me, and I had too much to focus on with the Diablo.

As I said if my choice was between Bryston and Mac I’d go Bryston without question.  And that’s based on my test of the 4B3 and 452.  You give up a bit of the Mac’s fully fleshed our mids but you gain so much more in dynamics, timing, drive and bass.  Best of luck with the 14B3!

If I end up buying the Diablo and if it doesn’t work out for some reason, my fallback will be to sell it and go with the 14B3 and a suitable TBD preamp.  There is no way for me to be totally sure of how the the Diablo will do with my 803 D2’s before buying, and as I said the D3 line I’m testing it with in the shop has elements that don’t agree with me, which is actually the very reason I chose my D2’s and not the D3 at the time I bought them.

Nyve,

Boooo....no 462 review!?!?

; )

I’m getting the Bryston 14b3.. Besides, went to the Mac house in Manhattan, and they were rude. Now I need to figure out a preamp for uae with my ML 15a’s. Gonna keep using my Cambridge 851n as the preamp in the interim.

nyev, you have a great perception of the sound. This amp/speakers interaction is a complicated thing. I myself like speakers that are slightly loose and give me a somewhat 'bluesy' sound. But this kind of speakers need an amp with a firm grip not to get out of control. It should be a right balance, and it can be a matter of preference. It appears that this Gryphon/B&W pair does not strike the right balance, though it does certain things very well. That's why you are so ambivalent. Just don't buy if you are not sure.
What I also know about Flemming, I watched a number of interviews with him, is that he likes large scale music. This influenced his designs.
I understand what you call "flow" of music. Again, it's interesting and not simple. For example, and that's not about amps or speakers, it is about the sources, both analog in this case. My Nottingham turntable overall sounds much better than Nakamichi cassette deck. But, music has more coherence and flow when played on tape, tape recorded off vinyl played on the same Nottingham. I also once noticed the disruption of the flow with a wrong interconnect cables.

That is a perfect way to describe it “you feel the amp’s presence”.  It is difficult to describe this effect in a non-subjective way.  It is like the amp is curating the music for you, the way it wants to  (and doing a very, very good job of it).  What I’m wrestling with is whether I like this effect vs an amp that “disappears”.  No one I’ve seen has commented on this control element being a negative factor, so maybe I would be able to stop focusing on it so much after some extended listening sessions.  I doubt that can happen over an in-store audition.  On one hand I really like the effect.  On the other, I seem to notice it a bit too much and it’s distracting.  Now that I think of it - I did see one person on another forum say it was too controlled and not free-flowing enough for them.  But that’s the only one.

I think, you definitely need another audition. One thing about Gryphon you certainly got right. It has a great grip on speakers and you feel the amp's presence. In a manner of speaking, it is quite authoritarian. 

Bubb, unfortunately the shop didn't have the 803 D3's for me to test with the Diablo, as they said they sell so many 804's and 802's they don't need to demo the 803.  I should be clear I'm not even slightly saying the 802 or D3 line is bad - it just has a less relaxed mid than I prefer.  I agree it is an excellent speaker and I believe others may specifically like it better for how revealing it is.  I've extensively A/B tested my 803 D2's with the 804 D3 and I've heard the 804 D3 in other systems as well with the same qualities detected in the midrange which are simply not to my liking.  Regarding the typical analysis of dynamics, timing, attack, decay, etc, as I said I was unable to get a good read on these during my test of the Diablo.  Sorry to fail in my typical reviewing abilities!  Another way to put it is that the sound was so unique in my experience, that I admit I lost my sonic bearings a bit and I spent most of my time trying to get them back!  Again this was due to the soundstaging (it was like, how can I test this amp when there is a singer right in front of me distracting me from the test!) and the "control" aspect which I found very different.  With the vocals it is like a disembodied voice is planted right in front of you.  I've seen others say this about how pinpoint the Diablo is with vocals.  By "control" and "muscular" I mean that you get the sense that the speakers are doing EXACTLY what the amplifier is telling them to do, and not leaving any leeway for the speakers to do anything else.  It is hard to described in terms of typical descriptors of dynamics, attack, decay etc.  It is more a sense of being completely "dialed-in" and "focused". That's what gave me the feeling of using high-end headphones while I was listening.  The only difference being the soundstage was in front of me instead of left/right and in my head as it is with headphones.  That is what I am working through, whether I'll grow to enjoy this as a sonic benefit.  I think I will - it is a really cool effect and I think it is just my ears are biased to what I'm used to which is most definitely not this!  Sorry, I didn't get a chance to listen to The Chain, as I was working through my own sense of experiencing sonic discombobulation.  Realized when I left the audition I was quite dehydrated too so that didn't help.  I am thinking of going back next week which is my nearest opportunity.  Also of note - the room was medium sized, I was maybe 8-9 ft from the speakers, and it was set up to be an equilateral triangle between both speakers and me.  The room had a lot of dampening - which could have added to the "control" factor.  I typically like a bit more energy to come from the room to liven it up (but not much).  I did request they bypass the power conditioner they had and plug the Gryphon directly into the unconditioned wall outlet, so there shouldn't be any issue there.  In terms of burn-in, it was a "distributor demo" that had just arrived at the shop.  They said they expected it had some heavy use on it but they said there'd be no way for them to know for sure.  The did offer the demo unit to me (with DAC and phono modules) at a very aggressive price so I'm thinking it can't possibly be new if they can do that.

Gryphon makes their own speakers and probably doesn't support anyone. Look up their discontinued Atlantis on ebay, as an example.

Nyev,

I know what you mean with the speakers, when i was going to buy a pair of 800 D3 series speakers. I listened to 800, 802 and 803 speakers, the 800 speakers
where excellent but you need the room size and equivalent electronics to drive them to get the best from them. The 800 was crossed off as my room couldn’t
accommodate them. Then I listened to the 802 D3 again due to the turbine head which is the same size as the 800 D3, they require careful placement, the dealer never
set them up correctly. I too had the same issue of focus / confusion etc as you have encountered, I think the speakers need quite a big room to breathe and focus. So they too
were crossed off. Then i listened to the 803 D3, they were just right, good focus, good midrange, good bass and generally a enjoyable speaker. I listened to various amps and ended up buying them.

"When I bought my 803 D2’s I compared them against the 804D3’s and concluded the D3’s midrange, while more detailed, was too forward and aggressive for me,"

There is a massive difference between the lesser 804, 805 in comparison to 803, 802 and 800. This is primarily in regards to the turbine head, I believe the 800 series really begins from the
803 speaker. As the midrange treble is night and day in comparison to the ones without the turbine head.

What do you mean by this-

"I now understand what others say about the Diablo being “muscular” and “controlled”."

Does it it have huge dynamics? Does it catch you out if you have the volume turned up and your listening to a quite passage then some loud music comes through? Does the music flow effortlessly?

Whats the strings like? The bass does it hit you hard like a Mike Tyson punch in the chest? Can you listen to it forever? Did you hear things you haven't heard before?

Did you get a chance to listen to the Chain?

I think it would be beneficial for you to go back for a second listen and listen through something you are kind of familiar with likes of 803 D3 speakers. There is no point you changing your speakers
to something else as you are not going to be familiar with them. You'll be even more confused!

No, Flemming is an industrial designer and painter. He worked with great engineers to make these pieces happen.
I think, that's my guess, that perhaps in addition to what you said about speakers, the Diablo was not really burned in. It needs 200 hours minimum initial burning in. I don't know how well Transparent Reference cables work with Gryphon and B&W speakers, and maybe they were not burnt in properly either. That's the problem with some dealers.

Tested the Gryphon Diablo 300 today. It really is very confusing testing in-store instead of in-home. At this point I THINK I am proceeding with the Diablo. The shop had them connected to the B&W 802 D3’s (for reference I have the 803 D2’s so a much different speaker. Used Transparent Reference speaker wire. My first reaction was one of completely losing my bearings, due to the soundstaging. It was actually so distracting that I had trouble focusing on my usual areas of analysis. I am not a very good audiophile.... The vocals were so completely formed at pinpoint dead center it was spooky. It took some getting used to. When I shifted or turned my head it really messed with the soundstage which was even more distracting. Then I discovered if I leaned forward I found the soundstage was much less fragile when shifting or turning my head. I concluded the speakers were towed in too much. The experience for me was similar to using a very good pair of headphones. I now understand what others say about the Diablo being “muscular” and “controlled”. I’m not sure I enjoy this effect, vs a more relaxed and “free-flowing” effect. But I do think I’d get used to it. Transparency and detail was very good. Overall this is miles ahead of everything I’ve tried up to now. On the other hand I did have a bit of trouble engaging with the music - it was very controlled, a bit “uptight” vs relaxed and flowing. HOWEVER- I am 90% sure that the elements I found slightly unenjoyable could be attributed to the speakers. When I bought my 803 D2’s I compared them against the 804D3’s and concluded the D3’s midrange, while more detailed, was too forward and aggressive for me. So I am thinking this effect is likely present in the 802 D3 as well. Now I need to decide whether to take a chance and proceed with the Diablo 300. As I said, I was very impressed. Just think it was the B&W 802 D3’s that weren’t really my thing. I do need to travel to visit this shop so maybe I need to head there for one more session and maybe I’ll try a different set of speakers this time. Or maybe I’ll just take the plunge.... Need to think on this. Lastly I didn’t bother testing the McIntosh 462. I know the Diablo was not even comparable to the 452 so I knew the 462 wouldn’t have a hope. I just focused on the Diablo. As you can probably tell I left the audition impressed with the Diablo but also a bit confused.  Oh one more thing. I’m certain that Fleming subcontracted Batman to design the Diablo chassis. And the remote. Which doubles as a weapon.

I’ll listen to The Chain again (haven’t heard it for a while) and consider adding it to my audition playlist. Dealer said he prefers to use Tidal HiFi for auditioning.  So far my audition playlist contains songs that have very specific passages that have exposed other amplifiers as not quite doing well enough in particular areas, especially when A/B testing those same passages with a second amplifier.

My dealer said that the delivery of their Diablo demo unit to their shop has been delayed due to the unusual amount of snow we are dealing with on the west coast.  The shipping company currently shows it should be delivered this afternoon, but I’m sceptical of that and there probably won’t be enough time for an audition even if it did arrive today.  Since I’m travelling, my last chance to audition on this trip will be tomorrow afternoon, but I’m not sure they will even have got it in by then.  It’s a tiny amount of snow but we are not used to dealing with it on the west coast so all the roads are backed up.  It’s looking like I may need to come back for the audition after the snow is cleared, maybe this weekend.

Looking forward to this review as I own a pair of B&W 803 D3 speakers. I’m looking to buy either the Mark Levinson 585 or the Diablo 300.

I found the 585 drove 803 D3 speakers with authority. I ended up turning the volume up on quite parts and was caught out with louder sections (kind of difficult to describe) (I used the track below). Which I liked, not something I’ve heard before. I hoping this amp is the same with a lot more than a 585...

It would be nice if you can listen to- Fleetwood Mac - The Chain

This is a good track to test dynamics.

nyev
Looking forward in reading about your audition today.  Happy Listening!

LOL...  Yeah like you said in your quote of mine I’m still working on figuring that out..

To be honest I’m not sure where I fit on the spectrum of engaging/detailed vs warm and non-fatiguing. Although to me being able to listen to music hours on end might mean that the music isn’t quite as engaging. If it’s a little more fatiguing I don’t mind if themusic is more engaging....

Really???  So, this is just awful!!! THIS!!! is what you give for us to go on???  THIS IS JUST A SONIC MESS!!!  To me, this means NOTHING!!!  EVERYBODY wants these things!!!  You need to share what YOUR SPECIFIC PRIORITIES ARE!!!  You are all over the place.  You're like a moving target.  Get your act together and get a better idea of what you're asking this crowd.  Otherwise, you're just a time-wasting moving target. 

Morg111,  totally thinking the same as you.  If I do go Bryston I too will actually go 14B3 for greater transparency vs 4B3.  However when you factor cost of 14B3 and suitable preamp, I can get the Gryphon Diablo 300 for the same $$$.  And consensus seems to be that the Diablo is “in another league”.  Will see how I think  the Gryphon compares shortly.  Also agree I expect 462 will only be marginally better than 452.

I was disappointed to hear about the Mac. To me, it's the best looking of the bunch. However, the sound is the most important thing in the end. 

Nyve,

Understood on the different setups. It doesn’t matter as much as I’m looking at the Bryston 14b3. So if the 4b3 was nearly or in some areas better than the 452, it can be guaranteed that the 14b3 will be the clear winner as it has been reviewed as far better than the 3b or 4b combined. I doubt 462 is that much better than its previous model.

Morg111,

I should be auditioning the 462 on Tuesday if all goes as planned.  However I’m only able to test in-store and not in my home so it won’t be a fair comparison to the 452.  To make matters worse I will be hearing the 462 with B&W 803 D3’s, which are I believe a fair bit better (and more expensive) than my D2’s.

The main reason I’m testing the 462 is as a reference point for what I’m now most interested in testing, which I will also test on Tuesday- the Gryphon Diablo 300.

I have notes on what I found to be lacking with the 452, and if the Diablo can beat the 462 in these areas and do nothing else wrong, I think I will have found a winner.  If not, then I’ll have to start searching for a suitable preamp for the Bryston.

I don’t mean to steer you away from McIntosh too much as I can see how some would prefer its smooth and complete midrange, but another thing I was a bit disappointed by was build quality.  Not that it was bad. But up close, it just didn’t come close to the rock solid feel the other brands in the same price range had, despite the heavy weight.  Mcintosh preamps I thought on particular did not give an impression of sturdiness at all.  This was a surprise; I didn’t expect to have that reaction.

Nevertheless I will post an update on the 462, but all I will have to directly compare it against is the Gryphon, which probably won’t be a fair fight.

Nyve,

Thank you for the review. I said it earlier, the Bryston cubed series and Mac MC462 (452) are two of the amps in my list of 6 I’ve narrowed it down to. Thus it’s like I have a personal reviewer, lol.

Sounds like that recommendation I got on the Brystons was dead on. Keenly interested if you still feel the same after hearing the mc462. 

I would ask for all Gryphon Reference or Purist Audio Dominus cables and power cord, all burnt in for at least 300 hours. Cables can really ruin everything.
No surprise with Bryston, they are in fact pro amp company. Some in the know say that it is more difficult to make first rate active pre-amp than power amp. Maybe even Gryphon people would agree, I am not sure. Diablo has passive pre-amp section.

Thanks inna for the tips.  The Diablo is a demo unit the shop is getting from Gryphon, so presumably it should have some miles on it.  Good point on avoiding power conditioning - I’ve seen stories of conditioning causing issues for the current-hungry Diablo at shows.  While I was aware of this I am pretty sure the shop has conditioning built into the walls of their listening room.  So I’ll have to ask how we can avoid this during my audition.  

And yes, from what others say, it seems I would need to spend a lot more than the cost of a Diablo 300 to get equivalent or better performance from separates.  That said, there is the issue of subjective taste.  An example is with a lot of high end cables I find to be very impressive, but often there is one small thing that ruins it for me in terms of balance, being too warm/cold etc.  I expect to recognize all the qualities of the Diablo that others mentioned after I test it on the weekend.  But it doesn’t there won’t be that one thing that makes it not work for me.  We’ll see.  If the Diablo doesn’t work out, to be honest I’ll be happy with the 4B3 and will need to move my search to a suitable preamp that’s a bit more lively and has more drive and excitement vs the McIntosh C2500 that I tested the 4B3 with.  The C2500 wasn’t bad at all, but I’m sure I could find a more involving preamp to go with the 4B3.  Maybe Simaudio 740p Or AR Ref 6.  Or even the Bryston BP-173, but it would need to be far superior to the terribly thin sounding BP-26.  I couldn’t believe how the BP-26 came from the same company that made the excellent 4B3 to be honest.

Diablo 300 is becoming quite popular because it represents great audiophile value. Sure, Gryphon separates would be much better, but excuse me, that kind of money is beyond the reach of 99% especially if you want top of the line. But even 'entry level ' separates are way too much for most. Used is possible but hard to find with North American voltage, and even with European not so easy, and is still expensive unless 25-30 years old.

nyev
Excellent review! I am looking forward to your next installment w/ the Gryphon.  Happy Listening!

Diablo needs at least 100 hours of burn-in time in addition to 80 I think factory hours. Make sure of that. Also, Gryphon matches well with Gryphon and better Purist Audio cables and cords, I suspect it does well with some others too but don't know it. Start by plugging the Gryphon in straight into the wall if possible, no conditioner, it's got one in it. Still it might sound better with some conditioners in certain situations, this part is tricky. Look forward to your report and final decision.

Here are my initial results of my head-to-head in-home test of the McIntosh MC452 vs Bryston 4B3, tested with McIntosh C2500 and Bryston BP26/MPS2 preamps:
Results:
-If I had to pick between the McIntosh and Bryston power amps, it would be the Bryston 4B3, by a small margin.
-The McIntosh 452 unsurprisingly did a better job at midrange, but unexpectedly (for me) had a more dominant mid than the Bryston 4B3.  The McIntosh's midrange was fully rounded out in the lower mids, with the Bryston's mids, including vocals, being "leaner".
-The Bryston 4B3 did a much better job at bass response, dynamics, pace and timing.  This resulted in a more musically engaging experience (for me at least).  There was a punch, attack, and engagement level that was missing from the MC452, and not just in the lower frequencies.  Even though the 4B3's vocals were not as fully developed as with the McIntosh, the 4B3's vocals seemed to pop out more and have more "air" around them.  Underneath that was a solid foundation of drums and bass which carried and exceptional rhythm and drive.  The 4B3's the overall presentation of the 4B3 seemed more cohesive as a result, and, unexpectedly, was more "musical".  For me at least.
-Soundstage was pretty much a draw.  But, I will say that the MC452's soundstage was more noticeable simply because there was more meat to the lower mids that simply was not there with the 4B3.
-Between the two preamps it was no contest - the C2500 beat the BP26 easily.  The BP26 was harsh and difficult to listen to.  Sibilant 'Sh" vocals were rough.  Could be just the difference between a tube preamp and solid state?
In summary, I do miss the MC452's fully developed mids in the Bryston 4B3, but ultimately the 4B3's pace, rhythm, drive, dynamics, and bass made for a more musically engaging experience. Not to mention the Bryston is half the cost, and of course comes with the 20 year warranty.  Another aside is that I really like the Bryston's speaker terminals which made for a rock solid locked-in connection, whereas I did not like the McIntosh's spring-loaded mushy feeling connectors which didn't feel as secure.  Another aside is that thinner or poor recordings sounded better with the MC452, since the mid was more fully-fleshed which provided a bit of balance to such recordings.  Overall, the result was not what I expected - I thought I'd like the McIntosh's sound more than I did.  Ideally, if I could combine the strengths of both amplifiers into one, that would be my perfect amp.  The dynamics, pace, attack, rhythm, drive, and bass of the 4B3 with the effortless fully developed mids of the MC452, in one single amp - that's what I need to find now that I've analyzed these two...  Based on everything I've read, I'm hoping I'll find what I'm looking for in the Gryphon Diablo 300 - which I will be testing (in a store) vs McIntosh C2600/MC462 next weekend.  The MC452 is definitely a great amplifier, but for anyone looking at the 4B3, to me it just seems an exceptional value with awesome build quality, with sound that at least for me, beats the MC452 sound by a small margin.  That said, I can absolutely see how someone else might prefer the MC452's sound for the effortless and more developed midrange.

Yes, I read that review too. It is sometimes unbelievable what a great amp can do with good but not great speakers. A number of people upgrade speakers prematurely instead of upgrading amps. Upgrade path is often not a simple thing except for turntable and reel to reel deck.

Thanks inna.  Not a surprise if my B&W 803 D2’s hold back the Diablo from reaching full potential.  Sets the stage for future upgrades right??

Interestingly there was a pro review where the reveiwer on a whim tried connecting the Diablo to a low end pair of speakers just to see what would happen.  The reviewer was amazed with the results and said the speakers sounded amazing.  I’m sure the speakers were still limiting the amp however, but that was probably the beat those speakers could ever sound...

A word of caution. Gryphon Diablo 300 will outclass any B&W speakers. It is not a bad thing but you will not hear the Gryphon's full potential with those speakers.

I have been using the Bryston 4B3 since 2016 and have since changed to tube preamp to drive and will say the soundstage produced is detailed, dynamic, transparent and neutral. The older iteration of the Bryston 4B has been known to be very forward sounding. I have pondered on trying to swap the Bryston with something more warm sounding like McIntosh or the Pass Labs but always find myself trying to replicate neutrality from solid state amp with a touch of warm from a tube pre for my next upgrade. 

nyev
Thank You for citing your current set-up. After all shoot-outs have been completed, give a shout-out for your dealer/retailer!

Looking forward to your next report.
Happy Listening!

I will actually have the opportunity to test the 462, but not in my home.

In a few weeks, after my in-home audition of the Bryston 4B3 vs Mac c2600/452, I’ll be testing the 462 in a shop and comparing with the Gryphon Diablo 300 connected to B&W 803 D3’s (again I have the D2 which is not the same but that’s the closest I can get with my audition of the Gryphon vs c2600/462).

After that test, I hope to be able to make a decisive choice.

 

Nyev,
Missed your later post about not being able to get your hands on the 462. Well...alas, my search continues for a 462 review. There is one that Mac has attached as a marketing tag in their MC462 marketing from a Norwegian reviewer, though it is so bad, it sounds like the reviewer just read the marketing hype on the 462’s increased dynamic range and usual power, and then added a few more words to make it their own. Really, that bad, unless a whole lot is lost in google translation to English.

I’m still keenly interested in your comparison: 4B3 v MC452 as HiFi-Advice sent me a private email raving about the Bryston’s paired with my Martin Logans, however he admitted without hearing the Macs, that’s just a straight recommendation.

Hi Morg111, just to be clear unfortunately it is the mc452 I will be testing at home as my dealer doesn’t have the 462 as a demo yet.  My assumption is that the 462 may be slightly better than the 452 but not leaps and bounds, and if I did buy Mac I would of course go with the c2600/462.  Also as an aside, while I have 25 years experience testing swaths of “mid-fi” grade equipment (say < $10K for full system) and have been very careful with what equipment I choose, this is really the first time I’ve been testing equipment at a much higher level.  Just a disclaimer on my findings!  I do agree with the comments in the pro review of the Bryston cubed line you referenced, and actually had seen it before.  To me the Bryston seems like a no-brainer at its price-point.  We’ll see how it stacks up against the higher grade (or priced) gear.

Jafant I don’t really have higher level components currently but will be upgrading with the amp.  Here is what I currently have:
-Arcam A85 integrated amp, and matching P85 power amp (currently bi-amped)
-Arcam iRDAC 
-Van Den Hul D-352 speaker wire
-Audio Note Interconnects (can’t remember model offhand but they cost around $400)
-Mac Mini running Audirvana driving the DAC over USB.
-Exact Audio Copy is used to produce FLAC files stored on the Mac Mini.

So nothing fancy currently, but the Arcam A85 was a classic that punched way above its weight and had a ton of attention at the time.  But a far cry from the Diablo 300... The dealer that will be loaning me the Mac gear in the past has been VERY generous with borrowing much higher grade cables and interconnects, so I expect I will have options to test the Bryston and Mac gear with.

Nyev,

You read my mind! I’ve been searching the web every few months for a quality, experienced review of the MC462 as I need an amp for my relatively new Martin Logan 15a’s. I even went so far as to send Mac an e-mail requesting they send a unit to my favorite reviewer, Christiaan Punter at Hifi-Advice... Who btw has an incredible review on the Bryson’s you might want to read for reference:

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/bryston-3b-4b-and-14b-cubed...

Look forward to your perspective on the Bryston vs Mac!

-marc

nyev
what other gear including cabling rounds out your system?
I am looking forward to the Bryston/McIntosh comparison. The B&W 803D2 is a very fine loudspeaker.

Happy Listening

So I’ve started step one of the process:  purchasing the Bryston 4B3 and breaking it in (at about 80 hours in now).  I have a 30-day return window which is very helpful.

Next weekend I will be borrowing a McIntosh C2600 and MC452 (they don’t have a demo 462 yet) to compare against the Bryston.

Have to say that so far I’m impressed with the Bryston 4B3, even though it’s not fully broken in.  It just does all of the basics very well, including having good dynamics, neutrality, and pace and timing.  Bass is also not lacking at all.  It’s amazing how much the transparency and soundstage have developed in 80 hours.

I see how others have said elsewhere, that this could be a fatiguing amp over extended listening periods.  It is not harsh at all, but there is definitely a forward presentation. But not bright.  More just in your face on the surface presentation, as others have put it.  But that no-fuss approach works for me.  I don’t mind it being possibly fatiguing since it is also very engaging musically.

I imagine the other candidates, especially The Gryphon Diablo 300, will beat the Bryston and Mac when I get to them, in more advanced areas such as 3D soundstaging.  But I have to say I’m getting attached to the Bryston 4B3 already!  And I can’t discount the highly supportive company and 20 year warranty.  Especially considering what it would cost to ship the Gryphon to Denmark for an out of warranty repair after Gryphon’s 3 year warranty period.....

Will provide updates after comparing the MC452 this weekend.  Until then my family is suffering the constant audio from breaking in the Bryston (at a lower volume, playing TV audio).

ddafoeVery fine system.  Happy Listening!

I'm currently using:

Roon on RaspPi, hifiberry digi+ pro,  iFi AUDIO iPower power supply
Shunyata ZTRON Anaconda Digital Cable
SimAudio Moon 380D DSD
Shunyata ZTRON Anaconda XLR
SimAudio 740P
Shunyata ZTRON Anaconda XLR
Pass 250.8
Shunyata ZTRON Anaconda Speaker Cable
Spendor D9s
and various Shunyata power cables

My Raspberry Pi based streamer seems out of place compared to the other components :)   Music still sounds amazing through it though and it works like a champ with Roon.

Cheers