Cardas Clear Speaker Cables?

@jayctoy - Thank you. I'd be interested in your recommendations on Audioquest cables. Are there specific models that worked well in your system? And have you used any connected to a power conditioner?

I use the Puritan 156 which has worked really well for me. I had upgraded to the Puritan Ultimate cable but found it added sibilance to my system. I've thought about experimenting with another cable to go from the wall to the Puritan 156. 
 

Audioquest cables are good on adding energy.

I went from Cygnus speaker to clear beyond. It was a pretty huge jump

In realism and energy. Nothing at all wrong with Cygnus. They are great and very enjoyable. 

To @bluethinker one critical mention I noticed for you recently, fwiw.  Also ​​​supporting what ​@marco1 referred to you about re-issue KT77s. Its also discussed on the CJownersforum back in Nov 2019.  They get into the new company owners of CJ being in conservative "business mode" about only recommending the original re-issue Mullards" they reportedly designed the Classic 120 around, etc.  

The same thread and convo jumps into  "using other tubes" in the EL34 family very successfully in your amp. One mention about KT77s. If you truly want less of the warmth and more of the modern CJ sound now, here is the comment by one of the members over there about re-issue Genelex KT77s in your amp by (ajf75), quote:  "These tubes do give up a bit, but not all, of what makes EL34's so special (cozy warmth), but offer much better low end control, speed, and even a more extended/airy top end (but no high freq harshness IME).

Not to say the Ray tubes are not good, but they still may not give you enough of the modern sound you noted in your reply just above. It's possible the new GL KT77s might, and might be worth asking that member again on the CJ forum more directly. Try to acquire them from a known reseller with an established test & return policy guarantee if you try any other EL34 or KT77 tubes. I ran into a few bad tubes I had to return to a well-known reseller for refunds lately. I suspected poor packing and boxing as a culprit. 

@decooney - Thanks again for the advice. I really like the CJ Classic 120 with the EL34 amp. I'd set out for a warm and relaxing sound, but now realize our tastes evolve over time. In the future, when it's time to replace those Mullard EL34 tubes, I'll give the Ray's Tubes a go. 

@marco1 - You remember my quest?! Yes, I was looking for that older CJ warmish sound! I do enjoy it, but have come to understand some of the vitality of the music can get lost when you lose too much attack and incisiveness. Perhaps I am now looking for more of the modern CJ sound now? :-) 

I'm pretty sure the Classic 120 only takes EL34 tubes, but I'll do some research to confirm. Thank you for the suggestion. 

+2 to what @marco1 said. I’m not a huge JJ fan either, the first set in my QS monos came out of the amps in a week and were returned to my local dealer for him to put in his stock for other customers to take advantage of.

Agree with simply contacting CJ directly, and posting a question on the CJownersforum about "which tubes to try in my 120 amp" to open and brighten things up a little more. Those guys over there can be helpful and many have tried it all. I leveraged the CJ forum quite a bit when I first started bouncing back and forth years back between TungSol KT150s and back to KT120s again for the type of sound I really wanted. imo, EL34s alone are a whole industry in itself within tube amp owners, lots of great choices and spinoff new-re-issue tubes like KT77s. Yes, lots of different tube stuff to try long before splurging on a set of Cardas Clear speaker cables for sure. I’m a 35+ year Cardas owner, tried most of them, and still a fan of Cardas [some, not all of their cables] but you’ve got some tube changes to try first, your Cygnus speaker cables might still be just fine. That’s all we are trying to say. Best of Luck.

Agree with @decooney except using JJ tubes 😎. Quite frankly, never used a JJ tube that I liked. They’re cheap and coupled with the fact that your amp needs a bunch of ‘em you’ll be tempted. I just replaced a set of reissue Mullard EL34 with Genalex KT 77 in an amp of mine and based on what I’m hearing they should do what you’re looking to do with your Classic 120’s. Whether it will be enough, only you can determine that. But it’s a good place to start and much cheaper than NOS Telefunken’s or Clear Speaker cables.  Oh, but definitely check first with CJ to be sure you can use KT 77’s.

To @bluethinker sure, no worries. Yes you have the correct understanding of what might be occurring here. For your awareness - this is really no different than many of us have experienced over many different speakers, amps, tube, cable, source, and or room changes too.

Where you may have gotten off course was the former output tubes wearing down, and you went out and bought the re-issue Mullard’s. I had the same thing occur with my preamp a few years back, I wanted to spare my vintage 6SN7 quad of tubes, put in the new Mullard’s in and while it had nice warm body, I lost some of the detail and zing on top. Some of these tubes are designed this way on purpose.

I did not want to mention further sending you down a Rabbit hole, but the small signal vintage Telefunken like @marco1 mentioned is one trick or the GL KT77s (more open and detailed), and some others like basic JJ EL34s are more detailed but have less body etc. Its just a balancing act. This is why I mentioned the Ray tubes, (not public, ime they are upper line tested PSVanes) relabeled and sold as Ray, and some folks in the headphone seen are commenting they have a little more air/upper detail with a nice balance, still kind of neutral. Its really as simple as you might be imagining. I dont know if the new PSVane Horizon is more neutral or not in an EL34. That might be worth asking on the CJ forum if anyone has tried them yet. Tubes can sound differently in different amp brands / models / circuits as you may know.

A few of us replied to "wait" and "not buy speakers cables yet" because we know that changing upstream tubes or amp tubes or maybe you could borrow (demo) another DAC from someone real quick to test that too. Sounds like a lot of it tilted you to the warm direction. Maybe one change at one or two of these upstream can tilt it back to more open, detailed, airy, and dynamic. We all go through this when we started - pairing up a bunch of components not originally designed to work together.  

So we go back and fine tine up/down the stack here and there til it balances out where we want the sound to go - and so forth.

Depends how much bite or incisiveness you want as to whether tube type or speaker cables will get you there. If you’re looking for the CJ amp to sound more like the Gryphon I don’t think you’ll get there with either. The Mullard EL 34 are warmer and more laid back than say Genalex KT77 so a tube change like that could help a little bit. Siemens or Telefunken small signal tubes will also liven things up. I’d try changing both tube types individually before cables. The Clear cables will give you more detail but probably not the energy and drive you’re looking for when compared to the Cygnus. I remember when you were seeking advice on the “older” CJ sound. As it turns out, could the more “modern” CJ sound have been what you were looking for 🤔. You can always upgrade the CJ amp to the SE version. Probably not what you want to hear though 😁.

@decooney - Incredibly helpful. Thank you! 

I'm somewhat new to the audio equipment world. I've often read that one's taste will evolve as one tries different equipment over time. Initially, I'd set out to build a relaxed and somewhat warm sounding system. I think, to your point, the relaxed QLN speakers along with the EL34 tubes and, to top it off, a DAC that has a reputation for being non-forward, leaves the system without a sense of bite or incisiveness. Lot's of spaciousness and air. Just little in the way of attack. 

I'll definitely restock my CJ 120 with those recommended tube amps on this next go-around. Great advice. Thank you agaain! 

@joeyfed55 - I will look into those, Joey! Thank you!  

I would try the Silversmith Fidelium cables for a 30 day trial period, they sound great in my system. I sold my Cardas cables after hearing them. Happy listening.

@decooney - I think part of it is simply my comparison to the Gryphon solid state amp. : -) The CJ/LTA combo is very, very good. I am just wondering if I could make it better.

Good, agree - no particular cable-length issues, and its good you have the Clear ICs.

As for tube combinations - I suspect you might have a little extra richness goodness going on combining the Amperex small signal tubes with the new-reissue Mullard EL34 power tubes together. I have various new re-issue Mullard’s and they all tilt more to the rich midrange and veiled over top end vs the more clarity detailed side like others can have. fyi, one of the known headphone reviewers out there just re-compared the new re-issue (extra rich) Mullard EL34s to the new (more transparent) Ray EL34s tubes [for example]. He felt the Rays were more resolving on the top end, more balanced, with more clarity and nuance - comparatively. You could ask others on the CJ forums about various EL34s there too in your 120 amp.

A few colleagues of my own over the past year recently had a similar concern, even after trying better cables, and we discussed replacing the re-issue EL34s with new re-issue Gold Lyon KT77s to open things up a little more. And/or the new Ray Tubes EL34 Select, or new PSVane Horizon Series EL34s could work too. Its worked for others.  You can check with your amp. Ask those guys on the CJ forum too. I was chatting with members there when I jumped back into KT120s, it helped.  

Syrup + added Syrup = more syrup, fwiw. Sometimes it can be too much of a good thing is what many might share.

Note I can also go install any of the new-reissue small signal Mullard’s in my amps right now and this also makes for more rich and veiled over top end with less transparency in my amps, even when biased precisely.

I don’t know that jumping to Cardas Clear speaker cables [immediately] is the first move I’d make without checking this first. The Cygnus are a tad more grainy and detailed than std Clear being a little smoother to my ear, fwiw. Best of luck.

@ghdprentice - Thank you! That makes sense. I suppose part my curiosity on upgrading speaker cables is to possibly bring a bit more drive/energy/incisiveness to my tube-based system. The Gryphon has a compelling sense of drive. I was very intentional about purchasing an amp with a relaxed presentation (the CJ classic 120), so I guess we have to be careful what we ask for. :-) 

@decooney - I think part of it is simply my comparison to the Gryphon solid state amp. : -)

The CJ/LTA combo is very, very good. I am just wondering if I could make it better. 
 

Cygnus cables are 2 meters. I don’t suspect I’m having any tube issues. I did hear the EL 34 tubes start to lose some umph a few months ago and recently replaced them with new Mullard EL 34 tubes. The driver tubes are Amperex NOS from Brent Jesse and seem to be holding strong. I don’t semse any degradation there. Interconnects are 1 meter Cardas Clear. 
 

I have the classic edition with El 34 tubes. I’d been looking for more of the classic CJ sound and was advised the SE editions were going the opposite direction. 

If you are using Cygnus 4-wire conductor speaker cables now, and not getting enough energy out of if, its possible something else blocking upstream is going on, if I may suggest. Maybe something Clear or Clear Beyond is not going to solve for your specific goal. Yes, own(ed) and used both. And still use Clear, Clear Refl too. 

Cables:

How many feet long are the Cygnus speaker cables now?

How long are your interconnects from your preamp to the tube amp now?

Tube System:

Is it the 120 or 120SE model CJ amp?

Power Tubes - EL34 or KT120, or other output tubes?

Small signal/driver - what 6922s are installed now, or other?

Please share name/brand, model, age of tubes. For starters, any aged and dulled power tubes or input/driver tubes can also cause a veiled over result too fwiw. Same would go for any tube preamps used of course. Worth validating this too.

While I have a little experience with the Cygnus, I have much more experience with Clear Reflections and Clear Beyond. The further up the chain you go, the more detailed and neutral they are. That is how they are designed. Warm to support lower level components and more neutral - detailed for higher level components. So, more energy and drive you will get with higher level Cardas. I have all Audio Research equipment and I want the most neutral interconnects and cables.,.. so I use Transparent... which is what they are.

So it is up to you how far you want to go. If a smaller step then Clear, more Clear Beyond, more than that I would switch over to Transparent.