Cartridges: Complete Scam?

There is no doubt in my mind that a modest cartridge properly set up in a top quality deck will sound significantly better than the reverse. I just had my TD124 totally tricked out by an expert-STS in Nashville. This project included a motor rebuild with high-torque brushes, an $1100 custom bearing, an $1100 thick aluminum top platter, Audiosilente idler wheel, custom motor mounts, complete stripping of chassis and iron sub platter and refinishing, new wiring, and the list goes on. A new 12" Reed 3P in cocobolo was mounted. Greg of STS put a lowly Shure vintage cartridge on the Reed (from the photos he sent me I’m guessing an M91) and reported some of the blackest backgrounds and best sound he has ever heard. Greg owns far more expensive cartridges and has heard plenty of far more expensive decks. I realize that one anecdotal report does not mean much but I think this is representative of tons of past experiences by most dyed in the wool vinyl ’philes.
I think of the concept as being the logical reverse of the more frequently discussed topic; which is more important between source/electronics and speakers. I am strongly of the opinion that it is far better to have top quality source and electronics with modest loudspeakers than the reverse. The best speakers in the world can’t polish a turd coming into them. But with top signal going into them, modest speakers properly set up in the listening room can sound unbelievably good.
The interesting thing in this analogy is that most wrong-headed enthusiasts make the mistake of focusing on fancy looking and expensive loudspeakers since they are so prominent in the room but don’t get drawn to expensive cartridges because-let’s face it-nobody but the owner and a few cognescenti notice them.

Mr. OP,
Why dontcha buy a vintage PHILIPS RR 522 radiorecorder ?
Taping classic rock albums of the day and listening to them on BASF and AGFA c cassette tapes again and again more than 40 years ago lead me to audio Nirvana, well or at least Nirvana told by Gary Brooker in "Twas Held in I" (from 1968)
: )

This thread has been amusing and aggravating to me, at the same time.  The OP obviously came from a confrontational direction and shows quite a bit of arrogance and close-mindedness to boot.

The responses focusing on cartridge/tonearm  compatability supplied the most important perspective necessary.  I cannot attest to current products as I am one of those 'old vintage dinosaurs who  live in the past'.  My two TTs are mid-70s  Technics direct drive SL-1300 and SL-1350.  My cartridge line of preference is Audio Technica MM.  My best cartridges were all made between 1975 and 1982, and were designed to be compatible with tonearms of that era.  I have recently added to my cartridge collection a few Signet TK9s, a TK10, and an At25; all with NOS stylii.  Their sound production is a definite step up in clarity and depth of sound stage, but I would be averse to calling them the absolute best.  The incredible detail of these carts can sometimes be fatiguing over long listening sessions.  However, my Signet TK7lca or AT14sa will provide hours of pleasant enjoyment over a wide range of source material.  Not everything has to be better or worse.  'Different' is ok.

BTW, the speed stability on my two TTs is rock solid.  They both are supported with acoustic isolators...checked regularly for level positioning.  VTA, VTF, AZ are all carefully checked with each cartridge swap.  All records are washed in the Spin-Clean, finalized with a vintage Disc Washer, and stylus brushed after each side is played.  Why do I mention this, you might ask?  Because the previous care enables me to listen to vinyl that is a quiet as a cd.  Period.  I am a dyed-in-the-wool believer of keeping the basics solid.  Purchase the best compatible equipment I can AFFORD initially, set it up to the best of my ability, and then care for it as if it were the last stereo on Earth. 

Maybe the OP will gain some education and maturity in the coming years, and learn that cubic dollars are not the solution to every problem he encounters.

just my $0.02

Raymonda from months ago.  I own a Benz Ruby 3 since 2006 ($3000).  It is mounted on a what once sold for $1100 arm, the SME IV (modified).  It last sold for about $4,000 a few years ago.  So, I had a 30 year old arm with a 12 year old cartridge on a VPI TNT VI.   
I consider this less than SOTA but high-end.  The reason I am still using the cartridge after 2500+ hours is cleanliness (stylus cleaned with a Magic Eraser every record side), mostly clean LPs, proper VTF and VTA (set-up).  I will continue to use this expensive cartridge until it does show signs of wear (maybe another 500+ hours).  The point is that expensive cartridges can last a long time and provide so many hours of enjoyment that the annual cost is greatly reduced and I don't feel the need to "upgrade" from here.  Plus, the initial cost of a high quality arm in the 80s became inflated as everyone noted.  

Also, the lack of smog in the past 15 years in the NW San Fernando Valley (previously the smog capital of the country was L.A.) does not destroy the rubber parts of the cartridge like it did in the 60's to the 80's when my expensive Dynavector's died after 3 short years (stylus was fine, the cantilevers froze from hardened rubber mounting).   

Every jump in price level I have made cartridge wise has seen a significant improvement in all musical factors, at each change.  people are just  blowing smoke, or can't hear for beans, or don't know how to listen.  Same for amps; some say amps don't matter, they do.  One day I substituted  in an  NAD amp for a Parasound  A-23, and had noticeable bass smearing.  One day listening to Eric Clapton, I could tell highs were wrong.  Can't explain how I came to conclusion it was speaker cables, but I did.  Went from 4PR to 8TC, and the highs were there.  Similar experience with inter connects.  To get SS to match sound of tubes will costs you at least 5 times as much.  Those who want SS amp with tube pre are losing out unless it's an expensive SS amp.  Wont say there isn't some snake oil out there, cause there is, but not on your opening issue.

Dear @chakster : Very informative video, thank's.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : What I said about professional musicians was not in reference to timing subject. Was only a fact that I found out, nothing more than that.

The whole comparison between audio and live music is a " sea " of diferent characteristics  and that's why, even that live music is my reference, I say that we audiophiles will enjoy better the listening experiences in our room/system as nearer that system is to the recording.

I think that exist one advantage on what the recording microphones pick up during process and that is " detail " due that good microphones have a very wide frequency range and " support " high SPL. In these regards the mics. could be better than our ears but even here is very complicated to have precise conclusions.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear Raul,

Again, more dancing around the issue; or, to be generous, misunderstanding.  What we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the “losted accuracy” of frequency response in the hearing of SOME musicians.  This has nothing to do with timing issues.  The relevance of this “cliche” is as much truth as the idea that musicians don’t care about audio. 

**** To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one. ****

Once again, you are putting all your stock in the measurements.  I know what my ears tell me.  You think that I am deluding myself.  That’s fine, but I would respectfully suggest that when it comes to how audio relates to music and it’s many layers of nuance that you don’t seem to be digging deep enough.  

Happy Holidays to all!

Dear @chakster : """  Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!  """

Could be but I don't know for sure. What I found out with some professional musicians ( some friends of mine, including a Symphonic Director. ) is that over years their ears losted accuracy and the frequency range goes more and more limited/reduced. The main issue is not because they are older gentlemans but because oever the years they are exposed to extremely high SPL for continuous time.

"""  But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. """

As you I think is almost imposible to do it. Our brain perceives that tiny unstability but what we listen in that TT condition the brain can't be sure if it's by speed unstability  or for other room/system characteristic.

Dear @frogman : """  is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others. ........................................................... it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems. """

I think no one can be sure on what you said because there are to many parameters invloved down there. An analog rig is not only the TT and that " livelier " or " preference " can comes to from: cartridge, tonearm, IC cables, phono stage, that LP recording process because the speed unstability can comes from there and not from the TT it self, analog rig set up, etc, etc,
To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one.
The other subject is that we have to take our time to be trained in our room/system to identify that critical " timing ". Not an easy task.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

**** But i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm ****

I believe you are correct and I said as much in my response to Raul.  

I said in my first post on this subject that I think this is the most misunderstood topic in audio.  Another example why this is so:

Yes, bad intonation (pitch) from the musicians is a bad thing, but, again, has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.  Many musicians play with less than good intonation, but this has no relevance to the issue of rhythm and how that rhythm is reproduced by the playback equipment.  And of course as you say you “cant help it with the turntable”.  What is the point here?  The issue is simply whether the turntable will reproduce the rhythm of the performance accurately or not, musical performance problems and all.  No?

@frogman well, i do not exactly following your full conversation with Raul , i can lost in all those posts. You're right about pitch instable, same with off-centered record pressing, we can hear it, yes. But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. And for those of us who're not a musicians even pitched up or pitched down records sounds just fine, i want to pitch up some of my records, remember those Technics turntables with +/- 8% pitch control? At the same time what about those recordings when you clearly hear that instruments are not tuned right to each other, or slightly off beat and it's all about the quality of the musicians, you can't help it with the turntable. It's hard to be a musician when you can hear all that imperfections. Probably studio time was too expensive for some of the independent bands and they're decided to leave it like that on the record. And finally, i think quality direct drive turntables are stable. 

chakster, with respect, what does any of what you wrote have to do with the subject at hand?  You have missed the point.  First, while you are correct that adults cannot “develop” perfect pitch they can develop “relative pitch” which for all intents and purposes accomplishes the same thing.  However, none of that is the issue here.  While not usually identified as a difference in pitch the resulting effect of slightly faster or slower turntable speed is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others.  The bigger issue still is INCONSISTENCY of speed.  This is clearly heard as reduced rhythmic excitement in recordings and worse.  All of this in comparison to the total absence of these timing distortions when the comparison is to live music.  Moreover, I would submit that even when audiophiles cannot identify this problem specifically it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems.  

Dear @frogman : ""  I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.   """. Again you took my sentences word by word. No, I'm not surprised with, all we know that reproduction of music vs live MUSIC is only a heavy make-up clown " and that's why i posted: " We can't avoid it ".
So what?, well we can't compare it in exactly way.

In home audio neutrality comes from what each one of us are accustom to and what neutrality means for each one of that almost always is different. Of course that there are people that likes more and use words as: warm, brigth, dark, etc, etc. These does not tell us that we are not more sensitive to timing, even some of us don't identify the word " timing " and its meaning but this does not says we are not more sensityive to timing than neutrality. Neutrality depends on the room/audio system items and set up when timing is independent of all that but that TT speed unstability. In the other side brain can accustom to little unstability speed and takes it as part of the music and we can't detect it because of that.

We can detect is that unstability is not only constant in the shor time and in high degree and some times even the kind of music we are listening and the SPL at what we are listening. No rules here.

You said that you don't have limits but what you listening is normally different as what I listening and other people listening and i'm refereing on what my brain is aware to detect and how is detected. In this regards  each one of us is a unique/individual.

Regards and enojoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Everyone should watch this video to realize that adults can not develop perfect pitch. In Europe only 1 individual in 10 000 has a perfect pitch. You must be a child to develop perfect pitch. Even if you’re an adult musician you can not develop perfect pitch! This is very interesting phenomena. I would strongly recommend to watch Rick Beato’s video linked above, you will be surprised.

The statement that audiophiles are able to hear slightly different in pitch is bulls****it. You must have been trained from 2-3 years old to develop perfect pitch, it’s about the ability of the human brain. People with perfect pitch never makes a mistake when in comes to identify notes, chords etc, they just hear it and identify it like you can identify colors. Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!

Dear Raul,

I am surprised that such an experienced audiophile as you seem to not differentiate between incorrect absolute turntable speed and speed instability.  First:

**** Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music ****

That is exactly what I’m saying and I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.  A live performance will always have more rhythmic impetus, “groove”, PRAT, whatever one wants to call it compared to a recording of same and will be, by definition, “perfect”.  A recording may get very close depending on the quality of the equipment used to record/playback; and some listeners may be more sensitive than others to timing issues.  Btw, I don’t agree with your comment:

**** Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, ****

I have known many audiophiles who are much more sensitive to changes in timbre (bright, dark, harsh, smooth, etc.) than to timing issues.  As I mentioned, and with respect, you seem to be also.

**** Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?. ****

Probably not.  However, I can tell you that I know individuals with “perfect pitch” that can detect very very small changes in absolute pitch in music.  Let’s use a more realistic deviation from perfection; say 33.34 vs 33.33.  This may be heard as a very slightly faster/energetic performance of the same music; but if it remains STABLE at the “incorrect” speed it is not perceived as particularly problematic.  But this is not the issue; this is not what we are talking about.  SPEED STABILITY is the issue.  The problem is when the turntable’s speed does not remain locked on one speed and is constantly changing as is sometimes the case.  Even changes in very small increments are problematic.  This causes a very audible reduction in the rhythmic impetus of the music and the expressive value of the performance.  

**** Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! ****

I have no idea what those limits are; and frankly I don’t care much.  As always, the numbers only tell part of the story and I prefer to let me ears tell me whether A or B sounds more like the real thing.  The rest of your statement we can agree on.  Again, recorded music will always fall short to some degree of the standard set by the live performance of the same.  As you say, “We can’t avoid it”.  So what?  I have always felt that this was a given and this doesn’t have to mean that recorded performances can’t be enjoyed limitations and all.  We try and minimize the problems with good equipment choices and setup and then we make the choice to either listen to and enjoy the music or focus on the equipment and it’s inevitable problems.  

I'm not as knowledgeable as either one of you guys , but I'm pretty sure
my old ears can hear that much of a difference. They are just sending messages to the brain which I know can .

Dear @frogman : Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, this is not what I’m trying to explain and that you took " letter by letter " of my post when that was not my intention.

I don’t disagree with you because I have ( not so many as you ) LP with timing " problems " that are easy detected but around the 90% of recordings the timing is just aceptable.

Now, my question to you was : which are those speed stability limits for we can’t detect any timing problem?

Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?.

Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music then in audio always we have a timing problem reproduction that exist even if we can’t detect it. My question to you is still the same: which are the limits? because audio is an imperfect medium.

Btw, in the whole recording/playback process the analog alternative is more prone to timing problems than digital.

Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in  audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear Raul, the parallels to our earlier analog/digital debate in another thread should be obvious. I mention that as a point of interest only since I really would prefer to not return to that specific argument; we will simply not agree on that point. However, I do think it all highlights once again the simple fact that each of us is more or less sensitive to and more or less forgiving of specific playback performance shortcomings than others. With respect, I believe that you are more sensitive to tonal neutrality issues than to timing neutrality issues.

**** During the recording process exist speed un-stabilities through the R"R decks and maybe ( I don’t know for sure. ) during the cutting process and you can’t hear or detect that rhythm was losted. ****

I could not disagree more strongly. I have many recordings on lp and cd that were recorded in analog that clearly exhibit speed instabilities that hurt the rhythmic impetus of the music and are heard as decreased rhythmic “groove” in the performance and often glaringly in the sound of sustained piano notes. These issues are clearly heard as a product of either the recording or the mastering process and not due to turntable issues.

**** Do you know those TT speed limits for not affect the rhythm? because there is no perfect TT and almost all of us enjoy that MUSIC rhythm. ****

Of course they do.  Again, I could not disagree more. Some, otherwise “good” (and expensive) turntables sound rhythmically anemic. Moreover, how then does one explain the dramatic improvement in rhythmic impetus of the music when some “highly regarded” belt drive turntables are converted to string drive? Whether a listener enjoys the music or not depends on how sensitive he/she is to less than close-to-perfect speed stability. I say “close-to-perfect” because only in live music can one have perfect speed stability of the kind that allows the full rhythmic nuances of the performance; and if the PERFORMANCE is not perfectly rhythmically stable it can be heard as such and the product of the perfomance not a distortion by the equipment. I recognize that there exist turntables that are very very good in the speed stability department. Good direct drive tt’s obviously do extremely well in this dept. However, they, like all tables, have their own tonal signature and this becomes part of the “balance” of all parameters that we all try to achieve based on our own personal idea of what is best.

I have always felt that accurate reproduction of rhythm is the “final frontier” of good audio reproduction. Imo, it is the most overlooked and misunderstood audio performance parameter and what usually suffers most when recorded music is compared to live music since much more than timbre, frequency extension, soundstaging and all that audiophile stuff is where the music is.

<frogman> Yes, your logic is good. We should be looking at turntable speed issues first and then resonance issues and to a lesser extent cartridge tracking and frequency range (closed related to tracking /construction). Its very dubious whether tracking ability gets better after $200.

The industry does not like what you are saying about price not being linked to performance in these areas. That doesn’t make it any less true.

Reviewers can and should focus on these easily measurable attributes and leave aside their chatter about preferred colorations.

My point was that a good $200 cart on a decent deck, say Technics SL1200G/ Rega RP8 etc will outperform a $2000+ cart on a Rega Planar 1 etc by a large margin. In fact no cart at any price on a Planar 1 will get close.

Dear @frogman : In TT speed stability is a very desired TT characteristic, no doubt about but the critical an important subject there is : which the edge/border for the rhythm be losted due to TT speed stability?

During the recording process exist speed un-stabilities through the R"R decks and maybe ( I don't know for sure. ) during the cutting process and you can't hear or detect that rhythm was losted. So exist a limit for speed un-stability and speed stability has other roads as: short time or in the long time, depends how performs the TT. In which time is present.

Do you know those TT speed limits for not affect the rhythm? because there is no perfect TT and almost all of us enjoy that MUSIC rhythm.

In the other side @chakster tracking ability is not the cartridge it self is only part of something important too that's is the cartridge motor design.

The importance in that cartridge tracking abilities is that as better tracker as more recorded information you have along lower distortion levels. If that cartridge  performance or what you listen like you or not that's another matters.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas

Even with " non so perfect " speed stability you can’t recovery in any way what the cartridge can’t pick-up and that’s why is so important and critical the cartridge tracking abilities.
We can fix some kind of issues with the TT speed stability but we can’t fix the inherent cartridge self tracking abilities.

There are so many people who loves the SPU cartridges with it’s low tracking ability, low compliance and extremely high tracking force.

On the other hand we have those who prefer high compliance cartridges on lightweight tonearms, those cartridges are great trackers.

But since we’re not listening Telarc 812, the tracking abilities of the SPU is enough for many audiophiles. And if it’s not misstracking on normal records with normal music then it’s ok. For many analog lovers the theory and reality is not the same, what about those idler drives compared to direct drive etc ? Tube vs. transistors ... and so on.

The best way is just to listen to the music and fidn what you like personally (in reality) not on the paper with all the specs.

P.S. I have those high compliance cartridges, but i also have an SPU Royal G MK II with Ortofon Replican 100 stylus (the only spu with reduced tracking force). On the same turntable i have Ortofon MC2000 high compliacne MC right now. In theory the MC 2000 must be better, but the sound of that SPU with Replican 100 is amazingly good. What can i do? It’s my personal impression, but this impression is more important for me than anything else on the paper. And for each of us, i believe.

Technics, Pioneer, Denon, Victor, Micro Seiki made so many direct drive turntables, may of them are relatively cheap now (say $500), some of them are not high-end. The most popular is SL1200mk2 sold in a million copies with its stock $150 tonearm. Is that low quality? Speed stability is questionable? The better cartridge - the better the sound (especially if the arm is rewired) ! Does the bad cartridge sounds amazing on high-end Sp10mk2 with EPA-100 tonearm? Unfortunately not, it does not sounds better.

Again, i’m not sure what is "low quality" means to some of you, maybe cheap belt drive with speed stability issues that you can actually hear, but comparing one direct drive to another direct drive is another story.

The best combination is a great cartridge on the great tonearm/turntable, but in case with those classic and relatively cheap DD drives i would always upgrade the cartridge first.

The average cartridges never impressed me on the reference turntable in my system, i believe SP10mk2 or Lux PD444 have pretty good speed stability and Reed 3p is a true reference tonearm. But it is so easy to hear how weak is the cartridge if it’s not a top quality cartridge. I justs don't understand how a bad cartridge can reproduce music as good as the great cartridge?  It's noncence! 

I have been in the market for a new cartridge for quite some time now. One thing that really annoys me is the huge mark-up the US reps assign to these products. For example, a MSL cartridge can be had in Japan ( country of origin) for slightly less than 40% of the retail price in the US...same is true for Lyra and others. So, can someone tell me why the shipping cost and customs etc., is adding that much to the product here in the US?? Plus, the dealers in Japan are making a profit as well...
One would think that the shipping price of a cartridge would be minimal at best ( we are not talking about a 500Lb speaker or 150Lb amp!) Yet the markup expected by the US reps is over the moon...IMHO.
Crazily, I guess they get it...from some....which is probably one of the reasons why I am still in the market! 

Dear @frogman : It's obvious the importance on TT speed stability but in my experience today decent TTs has that speed stability, not perfect but almost.

Even with " non so perfect " speed stability you can't recovery in any way what the cartridge can't pick-up and that's why is so important and critical the cartridge tracking abilities.
We can fix some kind of issues with the TT speed stability but we can't fix the inherent cartridge self tracking abilities.

In the analog alternative all parameters and audio items are truly important due that the alternative is so imperfect. So I agree that TT is important, no one is vs this true. What I'm pointing out is that inside the whole " parameters "  cartridge tracking abilities is crucial because the recorded information is " there " and only the cartridge can pick up.

So, a perfect analog rig must have: a perfect TT, a perfect cartridge, a perfect tonearm and a perfect phono stage with perfect IC cables in a perfect set up. Well these we can't " see " it not even in our dreams.

Btw, before rhythm we need to have " all " the recorded information, to this can happens we need that the cartridge stays matched to the tonearm with a rigth tonearm/cartridge/set up and after all these comes the critical issue of TT speed stability. As I said everything is important in the analog alternative. Obviously that if the TT does not spins we have nothing at all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I agree with cd318....assuming that we are in agreement re what “low quality” means. For me, most low quality turntables have speed stability issues. Some very expensive turntables regarded by some as “high quality” also have speed stability issues. For me, that also puts them in the “low quality” category no matter how massive, and impressive looking they may be. No matter how good the cartridge or arm mounted on one of these turntables the resulting sound, for me, will be “low quality”.  Conversely, a humble cartridge on a decent arm mounted on a turntable that has very good pitch stability (“high quality”) will always outperform the other....in the performance areas that matter most to me. Solid pitch stability is the number one consideration in a turntable system. That is what has the greatest impact on the rhythm and expression in the music in the grooves; even more so than tracking ability...up to a point of course.

Dear @cd318 @chakster : Tonearm always is important and TT a little " less important " but the main cartridge characteristic ( other than the cartridge " motor ", the transducer it self. ) is the cartridge tracking abilities.

That’s what define the information that the cartridge pick-up, after this main characteristic then the motor define the quality of is reproduced on that information that the cartridge pick-up.

Cartridge tracking abilities has no substitute. Any decent cartridge can pick-up the information but its own abilities defines how much information will pick.up. The other main parameter is the audiophile knowledge level and skills to make a " perfect " cartridge/tonearm/TT set up.

Btw, tracking abilities in a cartridge is not defined by a price range. There are expensive ones that are poor trackers and the other way around too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@cd318 

A low quality turntable (resonance and speed issues) with a high quality cartridge is always outperformed by a good turntable with a low quality cartridge.

Are you sure? Tracking is not the main factor, if your low quality cartridge does not reproduce the frequency range that a good quality cartridge can do with ease then your turntable can not help it even with top notch speed stability. If you can not extract what's on the record how come your turntable can help it? 

Has it not been demonstrated numerous times that cartridge performance (tracking) depends upon the arm in which its placed? The arm in turn depends upon the turntable on which it sits.

A low quality turntable (resonance and speed issues) with a high quality cartridge is always outperformed by a good turntable with a low quality cartridge.

This suggests that there is greater difference in performance in turntables than arms and then cartridges. 

 I think you chose very good cartridge. In my opinion I have always liked much less loading then the manufacturers recommendations. Loading is very much personal preference.   If I were you I would try it without any loading at all just run directly into your preamp. That usually gives it a 47K load.  47K as compared to 100 will give you a much livelier open sound but the downside is that it has the possibility to distort more on the upper end 

Dear @madavid0: I don’t know how or why you decided to go with this AT LOMC cartridge.

Anyway, yes it needs at least 40-50 hours before settle down completely. After those playing hours you need to make a complete and new cartridge/tonearm parameters set up/fine tunning it.

In this link you can go to " reviews " and you will read what owners of this cartridge said about.:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/8e67b15a2a48de4e/index.html

Btw, LOMC cartridges are not sensitive to load impedance changes. That 100 ohms choice in your MS is fine. Don’t worry about yet till the fine tunning time and then you will know what to do. If after the time of playing the cartridge you still do not likes then follow the  what one gentleman just posted to you on that AT carrtridge

"""  But it will only be heard on a more capable table,phono amp. """

or learn why does not like you.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

When confronted with life's dilemma, one can always do the "uberwaltz" and forgeddaboudit, at least for a while.

FWIW, I wouldn't go as low as 20 ohms, even WITH a SUT.  But (Madavid) keep in mind that the "20 ohms" is the reflected load, in the case where you use a SUT, not the value of the load resistor.  When you use a SUT, the net load seen by the cartridge is equal to the value of the load resistor on the secondary side of the SUT, divided by the square of the turns ratio of the SUT.  For a 1:10 SUT, use "100" as your divisor, etc.

@madavid0 perhaps you can spend some more time doing research and reading before bugging us again

here are two good starting points on this topic
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stepup/primer.html
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

Life is a total SCAM
I mean really, you are born then you die?
What a rip off........

Head amps and SUT's are a scam!

"how is it that a head amp is fine for 100-Ohms but if using a SUT you should use 20-Ohms? "

Head amp is active and SUT is passive. The mfr specifies different loads for active devices and passive devices. Follow their instructions.

Okay guys, I'm a little confused here...the instructions for the AT-OC9ML/II say that if I'm using a MM/MC head amp that 100-Ohms resistance should be set...my Musical Fidelity supports this. But it ALSO says the recommended load is 20-Ohms and to use 20-Ohms in a step-up transformer? So, wait a second...how is it that a head amp is fine for 100-Ohms but if using a SUT you should use 20-Ohms? Does that mean I really need a SUT or a preamp with a 20-Ohm input? What does 20 vs 100 Ohms sound like anyway? I seem to be getting enough gain, so I don't understand what this means?

This thread hasn’t progressed/evolved from the 1st page...yawn.

It’s been reading material while eating dinner and listening to music with my over $200 SCAM cartridge, hooked up to my SCAM system exceeding $500.

Amps? Speakers?...lets guess what the next thread that madavido starts.

".....?" is a scam!

How about..Listening to music through a stereo is a SCAM!
SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! SCAM! Its just a good through my IPhone/laptop and Beats!

These type of threads accomplish nothing.

madavid0, just can’t resist a little ribbing. You’ve set it up

EDIT-the AT OC9II is a decent cart.But it will only be heard on a more capable table,phono amp. The fact you have to spend more money however, is a SCAM!

@arkanya Thanks for real info.

Okay guys, I ended up hedging my bets with a AT-OC9ML/II which appears to be a very well-regarded, and also not cheap, cartridge with a boron and Micro-Line stylus. I used a $10 mirrored protractor to dial it in and a $10 scale to set the tracking force. I have a magnified visor with LED headlamp that was invaluable for doing this -- it's almost impossible to to see the stylus tip without the aid of magnification.

Guys, it doesn't sound good. Lean, congested, and basically rolled off -- for example, missing trailing "T"s in vocals. But honestly not that much different from my Studio Tracker bundler. I've read people say that MCs take a lot of break-in -- is that true? Or are cartridges really are a scam? Can I expect the AT to eventually open up, stop rolling off mid-range vocals, and actually pull out more detail and texture?

I owned many different cartridges from Madrigal Carnegie (by Mark Levinson), Linn "Troika" to my latest Lyra Etna and Dynavector TE Kaitora Rua. The newer ones are much better sounding cartridges. It's like you'll compare old amps to a newer ones, or old speakers to a todays technology, i.e. IMHO new (same class) Naim or McIntosh Amps sound much better than the old ones, or the latest Sonus Faber Amati speakers sounds much better that the 10-15 years old ones. I believe it's all about what people can afford these days and partially nostalgia is to be blaimed.

Cartridge alignment is like cleaning records. Whatever you do it will never be perfect. No wonder people always upgrade cartridges instead of aligning the old ones properly. Many report that Mint protractor is currently the most accurate tool. So whatever you used before it gave you misalighned cartridges. Mint also gives you cartidges that are off the alignment, you simply don't know it yet and maybe even cannot accept that it might be the case. Good luck, anyway. 

Inna: hahahahahahahahaha, "you cartridge guys," you're killing me.

Viridian: interesting idea, and budget worthy too, but, something must be wrong because none of my catridges has sucked my blood, at least yet.

Madavid: You should have all the answers to your important questions by now and can make informed and rational decisions regarding vinyl playback, and, you're welcome.

Everyone else: KUDOS! 

Dear @raymonda : The tonearm manufacturer protractor has to have 100% accuracy and that you can use it " thousands " of times if necessary. Paper just does not works as protrcator.

R.

Dear @folkfreak : You are rigth/correct. All those set up parameters/tools are important.

Now, what I'm refering here is in specific: overhang, P2S distance and offset angle.
This is the tonearm manufacturer own responsability. No one else.

AZ and  VTA/SRA:   normally you make it by ears. What I mean is that the tools you mentioned about can help but the final/fine tunning of those two parameters you make by ears according/following to your own room/system evaluation tests proccess.

In reference to test record I almost do not use any more even that I own no less than 20 different test records.

As you know as more and more experience and learning job we have as more easy the whole set up but those set up parameters that are handled by a tonearm protractor.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Most manufactures provide either the tools or the measurements or both needed for proper set up. Jelco, for instance, give you both and a nifty plastic gauge. Rega give you both, but alas, their gauge is made of paper.

@rauliruegas surely then by this logic the tonearm manufacturer should also provide the following in the box with their arm
1) A fozgometer (or other azimuth setting tool)
2) A test record
3) A USB microscope (or at least an alignment block with a VTA grid)
4) An accurate tracking force gauge

Each of the above is as critical to setup as is alignment so why do you only expect the tonearm makers to provide the templates for alignment?

Dear @inna : """ I thought you cartridge guys would align by ear. ............ When using alignment tools, any tools, how can you be sure that they give you the best result ? Very uncool of you. And incorrect. """

Do you have idea what we are talking here?, seems to me you have not and if you think you know what we are talking here then whom is totally incorrect is no one but you.

If you think your statement is correct please tell us how did/do you ( by ears. ) makes the cartridge/tonearm overhang and offset angle set up?, because that’s what we are talking about and what mainly protractors does.

Enligth our day ! .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @folkfreak : Yes, to mount any cartridge in his tonearm design. @folkfreak , this is not " rocket science ".

I own over 10 diferent protractors and as every one I spend money with and I spend money first because my ignorance levels on the whole tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment set up and second because almost all the manufacturers just were and are irresposables for say the least.

The real issue is not if you are satisfied with the protractor you use and that posted you like. The main and critical subject is that if the tonearm manufacturer makes what's is total responsability about you, me and every analog audiophiles do not need to buy any single after market protractor. It does not matters if the price is 100 or 600 or whatever.

That is the subject and we must not support any tonearm irresponsability or say: " I like my after market protractor. "

When  customers that are the ones that support the whole audio industry will say/shout to the all irresponsable manufacturers that are totally wrong?  when will be the day when we customers really be totally satisfied with an audio item where there were the necessity to buy an after market item to fulfill your needs?

Do you know when?  when we left to buy those manufacturers audio items. Is the only way, because they are seated in his comfort zone and very happy taking our money, because it's our MONEY.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.