Hello! Wondering if anyone has updated their passive crossover with the Clarity Cap CMR. I'd like to hear how they compare to the MR and comparable competition. I saw some threads on the MR but not these.
Hello Guys with the extra Copper the detail can seem a bit tipped up in these CMR caps at first they need a solid 100 hours to start to settle down 200 hours to get to 90% and 300 fully runin. Which is a pretty accurate statement .do yourself a favor My a $30 SPL meter to know how loud you are listening ad if played on low volume will take forever .i recommend 65-70 db good back ground Low - med listening 80 plus getting a bit loud .90+ db hearing damage no joke.
Yes I feel once you get close to the 200 mark which I have now Thd sonic balance is very detailed and open and warm but not as rich as a Jupiter Copper foil. In some systems I would welcome the sonic accuracy of the CMR Caps Munforf supreme are rated a 10 ,CMR a 12+ as well as Mundorf Silver gold oil which is s bit topped up on the top end .personally I feel The Mundorf Silver oil is the most balanced for the tweeter.in the Mundorf line up. The new CMR cap is up their with all caps except for top tier like Duelund cast. Some caps too rich ,let the Dac,wires dictate the balance.
I’m at the 48 hour mark. The CMR still sounds brighter and more open / uncongested compared to the Clarity MR + Audyn Cu but it’s definitely getting smoother as time goes on.
Imaging is suffering somewhat. The left (CMR) has a better sense of instrument presence, but the L and R speakers aren’t matching well enough anymore to create a broad sound stage.
Hopefully this all gets fixed when I replace the R with CMR’s too.
I did do a lot of measurements to see if I could find a reason for the difference in sound using Dayton DATS V2.
Honestly no number stood out except precision. The MR caps were about 1% off, so the 0.1 Audyn Cu bypass cap and the Duelund silver foil pushed them up to nearly perfect values. The CMR caps are dead on accurate in value.
@audioman58 does the accuracy of cmr could be result too much (as erik said) or sterile sounding? the detail you write in comparison with mundorf silver oil is more or less? which is warmer between the two ? i also find mundorf silver oil the best of mundorf production, i love them, but i have not done comparison versus MR or better CMR, and you ?
@erik_squires regarding imaging i find CMR more stable then MR. with MR the instruments go everywhere in the room and have giant dimensions i suggest you to compare the caps on both speakers: compare them only in one channel is a great error this is a suggestion on my eperience. on one channel is easy but not right :)
-->At the end i would konw if when these CMR are burned-in are sterile/hyperdetailed cap. i like very much mundorf silver oil, does CMR close to them ? :)
I find the CMR better then Mundorfs in overall balance .i would have Never just installed one capacitor channel that is just asking for a headache one channel sometimes mixes more bass on one channel then another on cd, it could be the other speaker there is no standard ,this to applies to correct phase also.some cds are out of phase that is why the New PS Audio dac has a phase option and decodes every cd in DSD which is like a master recording,and very analog and detailed . they have a Major firmware upgrade coming out in 4 weeks that will really raise the Bar .Just a heads up if any of you guys are treating yourself to a new dac. That is my Bday present . Underwood Wally has some good deals.
I am doing the testing I am doing exactly because of the differences. :) That and that I really want to remake the crossovers and need to wait for resistors to come in.
The nature of engineering and testing is not always to build up full prototypes, and then fix what is wrong. Engineering, like science, is built up from smaller tests, small hypothesis that lead us to larger goals.
As part of my own process, I first do this 1-sided capacitor test to prove whether or not there really are any differences at all, as they are most clear this way. It is much harder for the placebo effect to interfere and relies a lot less on aural memory.
The notes I made about imaging support the hypothesis that these two capacitors are NOT equivalent. If I had a rock solid image with two different caps L and R it would support the hypothesis that the two caps are equivalent. On the other hand, this test cannot evaluate the overall difference in imaging of the two caps.
Once this testing is over, and I have strong evidence for the differences in dynamics and tonal balance, then I will rebuild both crossovers and be able to fully assess the overall imaging.
Of course, another approach would be to build two entirely different crossovers. Given how I destroyed the first, that may very well be how I should have gone, but honestly I'm pretty lazy and don't want to switch back and forth for these trials. :)
Hello audio4pass The Clarity CMR are not opaque or steryl, Mundorf silver oil is very good balance wise they are close the Clarity CMR is better balanced across the board. There is no stupid questions . Do uour selves a favor look up DBX pa-2, research it before Saying anythjng.my uncle being a Audio engineer in pro audio. This amount of computing power was over $2k just 3 years ago .nothjng yo loose,Everythjng to gain .the Wizard takes thd guess work out. Your system will never be better, Ever .Itwill make any room sound Much Much Better no BS Fact !! No mstter jow much $$ you have into uour system.The best advise you will ever get ,the rest is up to you !! Email me if you want to discuss this in depth.
which, is better balanced across the board?, the silver oil or CMR ? as i said i like very much the silver/oil timbre, so i'm scared that if i'll try CMR it has highs freq. forward than siver/oil wgat is your point of view?
I try to give you tips on how to better your music enjoyment and one Ignorant person had my recommendation of the dbx pa-2 removed. thats fine stay ignorant.
Hi @audioman58, I've been reading this thread. I agree with you that an electronic crossover with room correction is often a revelation in system improvement. I think the reason that you aren't getting response is that this thread is specifically trying to get a consensus of this capacitor and the difference that it makes in building and modifying passive crossovers. I believe that you have valid ideas, but agree with an earlier post, that you should open another thread to address this idea.... @erik_squires Erik, I look forward to hearing how these caps compare after burn in. Tim
My Lyngdorf 2170 has a built in dac and SOTA room correction. The room correction is easily the best upgrade I have even experienced in audio. Phenomenal! Cannot be overstated. Yes another thread for this truth.
Thanks tim. Letting a thread get off topic is the death knell. The purpose gets lost and those who were interested no longer will be. If I am guilty of this too I apologize.
Threads are free. If you have a cool idea for a topic start a new one. It is rude to the others who are paying attention, and the original poster to hijack it. If you think it's tangentially related, post a message saying:
"Hey, I'm starting a new thread on active crossovers here, please chime in"
Has anyone compared an Audyn True Copper cap to a Claritycap CMR in a tweeter crossover ? I would like to know what differences you heard after break-in of each cap in that location.
FYI, these two caps are not really equivalent. The Audyn is VERY physically large and very expensive for the uF. Also the largest Audyn TC cap is around 2.2uF. For these three reasons it’s much more useful as a bypass cap.
In my case I’m using around 4.7uF and 12uF on my tweeter.
So for instance, if I used 10x 1.2uF Audyn it would cost around $48 x 10 = $480, while Clarity CMR for 1 x 12uF is $130. So Audyn is about 3x more expensive, very much in the range of Jupiter Cu Foil and Duelund equivalents.
As you may have read, I’ve tested MR + 0.1uF Audyn TC and it was a very good improvement with the larger cap only.
Right now, the CMR is beating this combination, by a tiny bit.
Next week or so I’ll be able to tell you if the CMR is worth bypassing as well.
Actually, the Audyn TC goes up to 4.7uf. I have a pair I'm going to put in my Reference 3A Dulcet. I already have a 3.3uf TC Max in my Ref 3a Master Control and it sounds very good. The sound is very balanced from top to bottom so I'm not going to bypass.
Actually Audyn has a true Copper Plus model that is even more refined I used them in my other preamp and speaker, they are slightly better across the board. I bought them from Nick at High Collective. 2nd best to only Duelund cast IMO Like a Jupiter Copper but not quite as rich ,a bit better balanced from 2 builds I have used them in. In your system it could go either way. Much less $$ though. I wish they made them bigger in size,too small for my new speakers.
@erik_squires don't forget to completly burn-in CMR and then with "zen calm" compare it to MR. We look forward to knowing your response. Suggestion: some caps need very long listening trial before understand tonal characteristics :)
At 4.7uF: ~ 0.38 Ohms between 1 to 10kHz for both MR and CMR. Maybe 0.01 Ohms lower for MR.
audio4pass - Your typing sometimes comes off as very rude and demanding. I don't get paid by you, so I would appreciate it if you spoke to me a little more politely like I try to for others.
are you sure ?, how many hours are burned the cmr
So, part of the rudeness I sense from you is that you seem to not be reading along in the thread. If you had, you would see that when I typed this it was very early in the burn-in process. I'm not giving my final impressions, but putting in my impressions here as the burn-in continues.
I look forward to sharing my experiences with you so long as we treat each other with respect and friendship.
I'm about a week into burning in one side of my CMR caps.
One interesting point, while music from my Mytec DAC sounds brighter and fuller, the Oppo Bluray player (103) is now sounding more and more harsh.
It will be middle of next week before I get all the parts to re-make the filters.
Yeah, I know others like to do things differently. That's fine, but I'm going to do things my way and I hope you appreciate the information as I post it. I'm not going to change my test techniques. I haven't the time / money / energy right now. So, please accept my comments in the context I offer them.
Mundorf provides a very nice turn-key PCB assembly service for you. I’m not sure if they do the PCB layout as well, but High-end manufacturers get the entire crossover, including driver wiring, fully assembled from Mundorf, so it’s kind of irresistible for them to go with all Mundorf parts including coils and resistors.
When anyone types very short sentences it can seem like you are giving orders. Please be more considerate, and treat others like your friends who share a fun hobby.
The new C MR caps are very hood and nice and detailed and open ,once Run in and has a natural warm balance. I was building s second speaker xover but without a schematic a cash cow to experiment. I have s lot of caps looking to sell cheap over $750 in caps
excuse me audioman58, i don’t waste your time but to me is not clear the comparison with mundorf supreme silver oil. i would know if silver oil has more highs freq emphasis than the CMR. then, no other answers about this :)
I'm going to mention @dgarretson the US rep to see if he would like to chime in.
So I finally had the health and energy to rebuild my crossovers. Hopefully this trend continues! :) Also I am relying a lot more on barrier strips, so future updates or comparisons won't require as many tools.
As a reminder, the crossover I am using is a 3rd order high-pass filter going to a Mundorf AMT tweeter. My previous caps were clarity MR, the large one bypassed with Audyn TC. My comparisons are the BARE CMR vs. the MR + Audyn. As I mentioned, my health and energy are a factor, so please, no criticisms that I didn't go through a long QA eval process.
Anyway, I find the CMR caps interesting indeed. They are cooler than the MR+Audyn TC caps for certain. From the contact/surface sounds of large drums, to cymbals and top-hat there is noticeably more information there.
In this sense it is definitely moving towards the Mundorf Supreme line, without it's juiciness.
I learned recently the MR caps are still around and honestly I can see why. The difference is bigger than merely more detail, or smoothness, it's a noticeable change in overall temperature.
The full rebuild just happened recently, so I'll see if I adjust. At first listen, it's a mix of pros and cons which I'll have to spend some time getting used to.
yes erik i suggest you to spent more time on listen the new timbre of CMR. you know well that everything is new need time to be metabolized before take a decision. take care to listen, because i don’t find CMR cooler then MR about my point of view CMR is more complete cap and smoother than MR that in comparison seems to lesser form the bass to the high the MR has a loudness presentation, the CMR has all the things at their real place. the dynamic of CMR is very very greater than MR sometime the CMR is warmer and with more body than MR the bass of MR are less dynamic and less articulate, so this sometime you could perceive more bass then CMR but is axactly inverse the bass of CMR go lower then MR the high of are smoother then MR but with more mid and body but i don’t want tell you anymore :) keep us updated
Eric, I think Audio4pass has it right about CMR. The new CMR and CSA ranges are calmer, in the sense of underlying quiet background, and more natural and unforced timbre and coherence across the entire FR. It takes around 200 hours for break-in.
One of my OEMs who just completed his evaluation of CSA, reported that it is the first metalized polypropylene cap he has experienced with rock stable measured capacitance across the entire break-in cycle. That’s not to say that the sound doesn’t change through break-in, but rather that the copper ends exhibit a stable impedance that is unachievable with standard tin-zinc end sprays.
hi dave, the CMR takes around 200h for break-in and the MR ? when both (CMR & MR) are broken-in which of the two have more improvement in sound ? On what model
(CMR or MR)
the biggest changes appear ?
It’s been a long while since I personally went through a break-in cycle with MR, but I recall a leading OEM evaluator report that 200 hours was necessary to get to the end of it. With a more revealing cap like CMR, nuances during break-in may be more easily detected and thus appear more dramatic, when in fact they may be subtler. Sorry if that seems mysterious, but just give it time and see.
So I’m pretty much done listening to the CMR’s, and ready to give a verdict in my system. Oddly, I find the case colors of the MR and CMR line exactly opposite of how they sound. the Red CMR sounds cool, while the blue MR sounds warm.
The CMR’s start of WAY cooler sounding than the MR, but also less congested, more effortless. They break in over time and the coolness wears off, but they remain a little too cool for me, and a little disjoint. Maybe this is a matter of my crossover.
I still have a more open, and cooler cap than before. So overall I think this is an improvement. My original impression that the CMR is a cool cap along the lines of the Mundorf Silver/Oil but without the juiciness/color added remains true for me.
In any event, I did end up going with a very small Audyn TC bypass cap
on the larger CMR cap, which brought back the warmth and also seems to
do a good job of better connecting the midrange to the treble.
I like both the MR and CMR more than I like the Mundorf Silver/Oil caps. The MR is naturally warmest, CMR almost as cool as the Mundorf S/O. I still recommend a bypass cap on larger CMR caps.
Probably no one will interrupt, but I would like to tell you that bypassing a capacitor with a very small value could create a phase-shift that could cause a "fake" warm timbre; This is measured.
My impression on CMR is that it is warmer, full bodied, with a lot of nuance and complete range frequency than MR. MR is a loudness cap with lesser dynamic range that gives you only the impression of warmth, but in long time listening is excactly the opposite.
i suggest you to do long listening that’s a complete track with MR and than the same track with CMR.
i don’t understand why you listen CMR cooler then MR, probably is your tweeter, i don’t know why. i have also Mundorf silver/oil and is the cooler of the three. probably i'm wrong, but i hope someone else who tried CMR respond. please let us know :)
I measured and simulated the effects of the bypass caps. There's no perceptible change in phase or amplitude. I can't explain the added ...not necessarily warmth, but liquidity, in the midrange by adding the 0.1uF cap.
I agree, the Mundorf SIO is the coolest cap.
I also think I like CMR better than the Mundorf SIO, but it remains cooler than the MR to my ears.
I'll give you an example. I use a Mytek Brooklyn and Oppo 103 as my sources. With the MR they both sound pretty good. With the CMR at times, the Oppo sounds harder. This was never an issue with the MR.
<< shrug >>
Clarity MR and CMR remain my favorite "affordable" boutique capacitor. I would not trade anything from the Mundorf lines for them. We'll just differ on where we put them in relationship.
The only problem I have with the CMR is that lesser sources which have any sort of stridency to them now show more clearly depending on programming. With the Mytek Brooklyn, this is NEVER a problem. With the Oppo 103 sometimes. Depends on what I'm watching.
To my ears the CMR is the cooler of the two.
I have not tried the CMR in the woofer, plus since all those caps are shunts I tend to go cheap and stay with ESA caps.
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