I hate nothing more than steely shrillness on violins or a glare on a soprano's voice.
I love nothing more than the faithful reproduction of the tone colors of unamplified instruments (the wood body of the violin and cello, the felt pad excting the sinewy strings of a piano).
YET, I hate bloated, indistinct, overly warm, billowy lower mids and upper bass (what I gather some think of as "musical").
Do you have any experience with speakers that might meet these needs for $2K, give or take (new or used)? Can be either floorstander or monitor, but with at least enough bass to perform decently on orchestral music. THANKS. -Bob
Vienna Acoustics' Bach Grand fits your bill. See: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/va/prod_bach.htm
I've got the Beethoven Baby Grands which are exceptional with strings. I've also heard the Bachs and they have similar mids.
I'm an orchestral trumpet player (hobby, but serious) and I listen to a lot of orchestra and string music. For instance, last night I was listening to Janos Starker and Josef Gingold play the Kodaly Duo for Violin and Cello, Op. 7. Man-alive that was stunning. Incredible string tones on 180 gram vinyl.
The Bach is going to roll-off around 45 Hz, but I think it's got one of the best midranges in your price range.
Compare to the Sonus Faber, also distributed by Sumiko. Most dealers that carry one carry both. As a musician I think you'll find the VA have more accuracy in the mids. Also, the VAs have great cabinetry. They're not as flashy as the SFs, but the quality of construction is equal.
Thanks so much to all of you for your thoughtful responses. I will definitely take them into consideration. A few of you have addressed some good points not strictly related to speaker brands, and I have either addressed or considered them. And yes indeed, Jdaniel13, I do love my vinyl (via an Oracle Paris table). Thanks again, I really appreciate it. -Bob
I love what my Vandersteen 3a signatures do for string sounds. Gorgeous, but...what is your front end? I know that this is controversial, but they couldn't do what they do without a turntable, the latter being the #1 most incredible improvement in massed string sound, including replacing the air around not only the instruments, but also the string choirs. It's amazing. I've gone back to vinyl after 20 years of CD. I have a VPI Scoutmaster but I've also found such string magic even from a Technics TT.
Hesson11, although I firmly believe your problem is largely in electronics or sources, I would strongly recommend the Reference 3A Grand Veenas. They are quite accurate in the top end thanks to the Murata supertweeters. If they sound shrill, it is something upstream that is the problem.
The best I listened Sonus faber guarniere(not memento), I sold my pair , but just now I and two friends were talkin about ths aspectof SF guarniere, it is the best speaker to play cords!
The most revealing speaker I've owned that doesn't hurt my ears is the Revel M-20. Not sure it's bass is adequate for full tilt orchestra. You might look into the larger Performa series speakers that use similar drivers with additional woofers.
Mrtennis...4 ohms is a lot for the MG1.6, although that value would be in line with what many speakers use when trying to hush up a dome tweeter to match the typical woofer. Since Magneplanar designs and builds both the woofer and tweeter parts of the MG 1.6 they can get the efficiency to match better than a manufacturer who uses off the shelf drivers.
I settled on 1.5 ohms. However, I have also replaced the stock iron core crossover inductors with #10 air core inductors having less resistance, so my woofer efficiency is a bit higher than stock.
I use 4 ohm resistors and still have a problem. I am using a tube amp, passive preamp and tube cd player.
i realize we all hear differently. i suspect its a case of perception. I probably perceive a spectral balance which emphasizes an exaggerated treble response more often than most.
You may be right - come to think of it I measured the dip on the 3.6, not the 1.6. It was subtle, averaging maybe 1 dB or so.
Overall though, my impression of the 1.6 is different from yours for whatever reason.
Have you tried adding "wings" to your 1.6? That would extend their bottom end and warm them up a bit. You could do a test run with cardboard wings. Also if you use a resistor on the tweeter, I suggest something higher quality than the sandcasts the factory provides.
If Hesson11 is willing to change amps, the original Quad ESL would be my suggestion.
Spica TC50 or Angelus are very good at reproducing the tonality of strings without harshness, are not bloated at all in the bass (the Angeluses seem to have a bit of a dip in the mid bass, but strong low bass). They do have their weaknesses, though, in terms of high frequency extension, dynamics, resolution, and ability to play loudly. (Perhaps this is a speaker that even MrTennis could like?) Plus, they are very inexpensive. Also consider the Audio Physic Virgo II. I've never owned a pair, but remember them in the showroom as one fo the best all around speakers I have ever heard. I liked the Magnepan 1.6 QRs, but could not get them to work well in my room. I also listened to the next model up in the Magnepan line, and thought its tweeter wa way too revealing - every cymbal strike sounded like somoeone throwing a fistful of gravel at the cymbal. More shimmer than you hear in real life.
What are your speaker + listener placement constraints (distances to walls/speakers), room dimensions, and acoustic conditions like?
These things have at least as much to do with what you're hearing as your speaker choice. Placing your speakers within a few feet of the front wall will get you a low frequency boost that will move up into the midrange as you get closer. Sitting too close to the wall behind you will do the same thing. A room that's overly reverberant at high frequencies, TV between the speakers, or coffee table in front of you can get shrill.
You really need to optimize the speakers + room as a system. If you're stuck with the speakers being too close to the front wall you want to be looking at on or in-wall designs that take into account the low frequency boost. If you're sitting far from the speakers something with more directivity (horns) will help retain clarity. Etc.
Telarc use ATC SCM Active 20's - another brit speaker to add to your brit audition list suggested above. You won't get an active version and a massive sub at your price point but a used passive SCM 20 should be within reach and get you started towards
nothing more than the faithful reproduction of the tone colors of unamplified instruments
.
If it is good enough to keep Telarc engineers happy then it may be what you are looking for...
Mrtennis...If you think the MG 1.6 high end is exagerated use the externally mounted tweeter padding resistor that the manufacturer provided. My measurements confirm Magneplanar specs which show no high end boost. It's flat. They say that many commercial recordings have boosted high end to compensate for HF roll off of most speakers, and that's why they provide the resistor. And, by the way, don't get upset by having a resistor in series with the tweeter. Every crossover that I have ever seen has a tweeter padding resistor: it's just that most manufacturers hide them inside the cabinet so the user cannot select to his preference.
Usher BE-718, one of the most realistic violiin reproduction I have heard regardless of price. I have owned most of Sonus Faber mentioned above, Usher is a giant step above them.
i must differ with you regarding the 1.6s. i own them. they have no dip. if anything, they have a peak in the upper mid/lower treble. this a very difficult speaker to work with. the treble is over emphasized. this definitely not a speaker for reproducing strings.
you need a good electrostatic speaker to accomplish this, or perhaps an apogee duetta signature or analysis audio omega.
the original quads are the least timbrally inaccurate. i am looking to replace my magnepan 1.6, because th treble is overpowering and there is a slight dip in the lower midrange.
it is a somewhat lean sounding speaker.
i'm sorry i can't offer a suggestion for under $2000.
Pubul57, the 1.6 would indeed sound very nice on strings and most things. There is of course some trade-off, and I think you probably nailed it - they don't dig down real deep. On the other hand, their pitch definition in the lower registers is superb. They have a natural enough tonal balance that imho they do not "need" a subwoofer. What the Maggies have is a broad, gentle, even subtle dip in the upper midrange/lower treble region that psychoacoustically balances out lack of very deep bass. That being said, restoring the missing deep bass is benefical as long as it's done unobtrusively.
Blending subwoofers with a dipole is a challenge, and one that I have done some work on. If you'd like more information shoot me an e-mail, as I don't want to hijack the thread.
If you are able to accomodate them, I think Maggie 1.6's would do what you are asking for. In my opinion Aragons and Maggies are an excellent combination.
Vandersteens and Harbeth perform well with SS, might even be prefarable. The Harbeth HL5 might sell in that range used. The VS 3ASig would also be in that range and be truly "full range" (within reason:)). Don't know the Aragons, but 100 Watt SS amps are genrally a good approach for the 3As.
Sorry about the missing info: Quad 66 preamp and Aragon 2004 amp (100W). Both LP and CD sources (equipment in flux). Room size 21' by 12' by 8' high. -Bob
You don't mention your electronic chain or room considerations. Assuming no impedance or power issues, consider the Vanderstein's that fit your price range. (Used 3's or new or used 2ce's or 2ci's). Signature line up is their premium version.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
