DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?

^^^ Or maybe more like asking if Premium Gas really gets you better mileage or makes your car go faster?
;-)

The question is too embarrassing to even ask---like asking if good tires really matter.  

Oh, goodie! Another subject glupson will attempt to facilitate. 

mach12,

You are a brave man. Even mentioning digital may be a step too far in some circles.

Ah, the timeless 1s and 0s argument against digital cables. Brilliant!

DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?

Yes, it does.  But the PROBLEM is that it matters NOT THAT MUCH in overall music listening experience.  It provides WORST ROI for any upgrade in your overall hifi system.  CABLES that cost over a few hundred bucks are NOT the first upgrade, but it should be the LAST UPGRADE if you can afford and have Sound Sommelier Level of Golden Ear, which is RARE. 

What provides EVEN WORSE ROI is investing in Digital Transport Cable such as USB or Optical.  Again, after you upgrade everything else and analog cables, then you want to upgrade the digital cables, the VERY LAST.

I think that the most important thing for cable naysayers to understand is:

"Emergent science does not come out of the barrel of a textbook."

It’s important to understand that even Einstein received death threats, from within the world of science, from lesser minds.

Max Planck (the origin point for the quantum sciences) made a point of mentioning this problem, in his quote,

"Science advances -funeral by funeral".

What he meant...was that the non exploring dogmatic textbook waving and thumping types, when they die their grip is lessened and science can finally move on to where it should have been, if they had not been around... their inability to understand (and those who listen/gather to them) --being what held science and human advancement back.

Huh? Some people believe in marbles? Have you lost your marbles? 

newcomers have the right to their opinion as well as ppl that have been around for decades....some ppl believe little magic clocks or marbles can make a difference, so? Some ppl believe cables don’t make a difference, so? 
Everyone is enjoying their audio system and this wonderful hobby.

Newcomers would be much better off if they shut up unless spoken to. Just my opinion. Five years of lurking can be substituted for one year of posting.

Yeah, Glupson, I got reported for that one!🙀

When I zipped the Royal Gorge I had a high level of confidence in the cable but somewhat less confidence in the teenager that hooked up my harness....so I watched his work closely.  Thankfully, he was good at his job!

Ask anybody riding in a cable gondola over a gorge. Skiers and snowboarders...my motorcycle throttle and clutch...I could go on...

@prof I was not ignoring you. You make some valid points I just think your hearing is off a little! Enjoy! Lol. 

Ok David, thanks.  

maritime51,

You will see such attacks quite often. In some of these threads, decency in communication has not even reached the level of an afterthought.

@prof I enjoy a post even when I do not agree with it, especially so when that post triggers my brain to think.

In @teo_audio ’s post regarding ’sibilance’ (from another thread) and reposted a few posts above this one, I found value in what he was communicating. It made me think.

My use of the word ’laden’ (following value) concerned me and I came close to qualifying it with an added ’positive’....this likely would have helped with the interpretation.

I was sincere in my response to this (his) specific post. No sarcasm or satire or veiled (or otherwise) intent implied. : )

If anyone was hoping that we would make a  millimeters advance in this ancient debate then I'm sorry to state the obvious - no we won't. Not now, not ever as long as cables remain the fastest way to make a quick buck in audio.

You may as well ask, "Does Money Really Matter?'

You’ll pardon me for saying so, but there seems to be a very fine line between satire, sarcasm and pseudo skepticism on this thread recently. Would it be asking too much to make more liberal use of emojis to ensure everyone understands if you’re serious or sarcastic or whatever?

@david_ten

I honestly don’t know if you were serious in giving teo’s posts props, given I have yet to see anything but what looks like irrelevant (or specious) drive-by philosophizing from him. Though I may certainly have missed some excellent posts by teo, virtually all I’ve seen (at least in these types of threads) fall pretty heavily into the geoffkait category.

What I see are vague attempts at establishing some elitism for those who
believe the tweakier side of high end audio - various versions of "those poor skeptical souls are unenlightened." E.g.:

It’s why we have such threads as cable debates. Some people live with an outward projection only, and some have a two way path of awareness, which is what is required to build a self beyond the basics.

And some of those who don’t like what skeptics have to say seem to fall for Teo’s faux-philosophical tone, noticing it’s disparagement of critics supports their own feelings, and think "wow...deep...and so right!"

But what I haven’t actually seen from Teo is an actual cogent argument, that would show his points are directly pertinent to, or act as an actually justified critique, of anyone’s points.  In other words: I've yet to see Teo do anything other than raise vague strawmen.

But...hey...I could be wrong. Is Teo doing anything other than appealing to people’s biases with his vague put-downs of skepticism?

Can you point to the relevance of anything teo just wrote to anything I’ve written. Anything that shows I’ve claimed something untrue, or unreasonable, for instance?

@teo_audio  Thank you for another value laden post.

+1 "If you watch yourself carefully you can see it in action."

I don’t get into the science project answers! So anyone please don’t get upset if it seems like I don’t answer your question.  The bottom line is that it has been my experience when I put random cheap cable in I lose fidelity to my ears. It may be a change in the sound. I like an open midrange tight bass and extended highs. Some cables do that in my system. I’m going to like those more. I started this thread because at the end of the day cables matter. To some they matter because they change what we hear. For others it drives them nuts because some of us in their eyes spend too much for zero improvement based on what they hear or can’t hear. Some of us would rather spend more on equipment or tweaks. I enjoy what my cables do and I can tell the difference. To each his own. I’m not hear for case study. I enjoy the tunes. You should too cables or not!

The more difficult the problem is to solve, the more fundamental the error in the formulation of the question.

A restatement of the last line in my prior post.

Which is, in turn, a restatement of the Aldous Huxley quote.

The main reason cables matter is to promote the  eristical behavior of audiophiles.

I just made this post in another thread, about sibilance. It appears it actually belongs here:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It can start right at the source point itself. Issues in microphone power supplies, bad microphone circuitry, bad microphone choices, bad microphone preamps and circuitry, bad mixing board wiring, bad mixing board power supplies, bad mixing board circuitry, and so on, down the line. It’s a very involved set of subjects.

Certain aspects of the human voice can emphasize this, and if the recording engineers are not cognizant of this issue being possible in each stage as mentioned.... then each part of this chain can be bad. Then it all adds up... and we get "screech-mud" for a a sonic result.

How much music have you heard that sounds like ’screech-thump, screech-thump’, on and on and on?

Sometimes good recordings are an accident, sometimes it’s intentional.

It’s a crap shoot, as they say. Bad? Bad we can find anywhere.

Bad is so easy to find that people have come to think that gear and recordings all sound that way. That the distortions are inherent to the situation and they don’t actually listen, they project what they know into it. (the human body is wired for this automaton behaviour)

Teaching people otherwise is a monumental task.

It’s the very heart of the audiophile conundrum. Some get it, some don’t.

It’s why we have such threads as cable debates. Some people live with an outward projection only, and some have a two way path of awareness, which is what is required to build a self beyond the basics.

Life is too short and we are only marginally learning and cognition machines...... we are principally unconscious mimic, copy, and mirror -- absorption machines.

If you watch yourself carefully you can see it in action.

Thus: "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man."

(Voltaire falsely attributed it to Ignatius of Loyola, as a barb at him - Voltaire was not fond of such, the correct origin is Aristotle)

Intelligence is a long slow walk back through the cluttered forest you came from.

"Usually good engineers would have a technical hypothesis that can be measured.If we are talking about sound engineers (not EEs or whatever) simply selecting new cables because "they sounded better to us" then that’s just the same anecdotal evidence that any other audiophile uses to select cables. And anyone is susceptible to bias effects. " (1) Given that there IS NO metric given, by current science, OR any electrical engineering standard, by which we can MEASURE what exactly results in a wider, deeper sound stage, the natural bloom of instruments, more detailed/realistic/cleaner highs with less stridency(at the same time), allows for more separation between voices(better imaging) and/or whatever else, those of us that hear those improvements appreciate AND (2) given that the owners of the studios that have proven track records, of putting out superior sounding products to my, as well as many other’s ears(judging by their clientele and rewards), obviously agree that better cables matter: I’ll stick with OUR, "biases". (WHEW- How’s that for a run-on sentence?) My ears have served me faithfully(even saved my life in a couple scenarios), as well as made many customers and musicians very happy, over the past few decades and I trust them. ’Nuff said, and I don’t expect all those keystrokes changed anyone’s opinion anyway, so I won’t waste any more on this thread(was that an, "AMEN", I heard?). ps: As mentioned, it doesn’t have to be expensive!

There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self. 

--Aldous Huxley 

Do cables makes a difference? Yes they do. I am not an expert, but I have a pretty good system. I have used cables that range in price from merely expensive to ludicrous. I have used networked and non networked cables. They all sound different. For sure example, I had Nordost Heimdall 2 cables, they were good, but I felt that they lacked a full range sound, simply put, I could do better. I moved to pricey MIT cables and the sound was exceptional. The bass was improved, the highs were better namely, the whole experience was vastly improved. When I upgraded my amplifier I had to change cables.... not because of of sound, but because of synergy. I went with cables that were less expensive but I found to be even more revealing. So did cables matter? Yes. Do they have more fidelity, I’m not sure. The mit cables were more detailed and provided more bass. Was the bass more faithful? I do not know. When I changed cables, I had to use a spare pair and Theisen cables had good highs but sounded veiled and lacked bass. The replacement cables did not have as much “bass” but I felt that they were even more revealing and detailed. Better? That is an opinion of one. Do they sound different? Yes! 

Principal Pseudo Skeptic and Cable Puller 🤨

My system has its power amps upstairs in a ventilated cupboard, they are the matching amps for ATC active 300scm, necessary due to noisy cooling fans. They are connected to my preamp with approx 15m  of studio balanced interconnects, then the amps are connected back to the speakers through another 15m of studio speaker cables which ATC supplied for the instal. The irony is, that all this studio quality cabling can clearly show the differences between a short 1m length of balanced studio cable between my dac and preamp and a high quality 3k  Dynamique Audio Zenith2 interconnect. The studio cabling doesn’t seem to be acting as a ‘sound quality’ filter, it’s still passing everything through. However when replacing the Zenith2 with a 1m length of the studio cable between dac and preamp, the sound takes a serious knock downwards. Is this magic at play. Maybe if I replaced all 30m of cables, which would necessitate pulling my house apart again and require a remortgage, I might gain further improvements, but that just ain’t gonna happen!!!

You are a wise and unsullied prophet...here to save us from ourselves...

Nope.

The only suggestion I have is that your posts should be less brief and concise.

!

OMG, Prof..we get it!...you’re the epitome of unbiased-ness-ess. You are a wise and unsullied prophet...here to save us from ourselves... educate us!

The only suggestion I have is that your posts should be less brief and concise.

@rodman99999

@prof- You seem to believe that studios don’t believe cables matter.

No I never said that. It wasn’t my point at all.


I’m aware that the occasional (and often catering to audiophiles) studio use some boutique cabling. But that’s not the norm and it doesn’t necessarily demonstrate anything about the cables they’ve chosen.

I’ve also known people in music and movie sound post production (e.g. sound mixers) who are audiophiles, and who buy audiophile cables for their home systems (though rarely the super expensive stuff), along with many who do not.

The fact that any engineer, or studio, chooses to buy more expensive audiophile cables doesn’t establish that the cables are any "better."It’s not like placebo and various bias effects just stop if you are in the sound business. That would be like saying "because I’m a scientist, my hypothesis is true." But of course scientists are wrong all the time about their hypotheses. That’s why it’s the method that counts, not the person.

For an engineer who claims some set of cables are better than another, it would come down to what method he used to judge that. Usually good engineers would have a technical hypothesis that can be measured.If we are talking about sound engineers (not EEs or whatever) simply selecting new cables because "they sounded better to us" then that’s just the same anecdotal evidence that any other audiophile uses to select cables. And anyone is susceptible to bias effects.


Am I saying the cables selected by the studios you named are in fact no better than other industry standard cables? No. I wouldn’t know that.(Although I’m skeptical). All I’m saying is that piling on more of the very anecdotal-style evidence that I find questionable doesn't really help.

And as I’ve said: the point I’ve been making about standard studio cabling (which is all over the map, insofar as I’m referencing variety of sources that audiophiles listen to, spanning decades and decades of recording), is that boutique-style audiophile cables are not required for extremely high fidelity signal transmission. Is it possible that *some* audiophile cables are even better quality than most ever used for recordings? I suppose it’s possible. But, even if true, it does not seem *necessary* to spend that extra money in order to have your cables transmit extremely high fidelity signals, given "standard" cable is used to do this all the time.

Look I think the more resolving your speakers and components are the bigger the difference the cabling makes. The people at Gato Audio in Denmark have a lot of technology in developing their speakers.  KR Audio and Resonessence Labs also spend a lot developing the products. When you start getting up there and your system is able to reproduce closer to real musical experiences the the cables make more of a difference. Spending a resonable amount on cables in a High end system makes sense  

Here is a simple suggestion: if you think ANYTHING makes your music more satisfying then get it if you prefer. If you think NOTHING will make your system give you more listening pleasure, then it is easy to take care of that.

I'm trying to figure out what you think you just added to this conversation.  Do you think anyone here is actually arguing that you shouldn't buy what you want for your system?


Not that I've seen.

I don’t understand why some of you are so concerned with what other people think.

Well, it's a discussion forum.   It wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if nobody cared what anyone else thought.  This is a place to share our thoughts about high end audio, right?

The thread asked the question "do cables really matter?"  A bunch of people think the answer is obviously yes, some are a bit more cautious, others giving a more skeptical opinion.   Nobody is sending goose-stepping soldiers in to people's homes to take away their expensive cables.  Nor demanding anyone accept their own view or opinions.What is it that alarms you?  People voicing different opinions?

Do what you like and just enjoy YOUR music. Enjoy.

Uh....thanks! 

Time to turn off the lights in the forum I guess.  We've got the go-ahead to just stop talking and enjoy our music!   ;-)

I don't want to be judgemental here,
Have anybody checked Gauge of wire Upgraded expensive cable to old cheap cable wire gauge? wire thickness makes a lot difference that proven science. Have tried thicker gauge wire before buying Costly cables?What cable can do is conduct more electrons. you can achieve by 2 ways.   A good analogy is cars can achieve same speed in highways(wide no/few traffic) OR in race track (built for speed)
Cable can change the Sound Quality is it better for Different Sounding?All copper are Oxygen free unless it is tarnished. If you open wire(old or New) sheath you see copper colour. Tarnishing means skin is oxidised. So exposed wire will oxidise( becomes ceramic so loss of conductivity) so tip contact have to be Gold plated so to avoid exposed part coming contact with.
so Single crystal is about all marketing USP will reap big Money.

Here is a simple suggestion: if you think ANYTHING makes your music more satisfying then get it if you prefer. If you think NOTHING will make your system give you more listening pleasure, then it is easy to take care of that.

I don’t understand why some of you are so concerned with what other people think. Do what you like and just enjoy YOUR music. Enjoy.

Do cables really matter? Yes they do, and I‘m telling you I’m pretty well qualified to state that reality. So are y’all going pile on and pat me on the back for preaching the truth, or dare to be a naysayer?

@dlcockrum ,
As much as I liked the political thread, it came to it's expected demise. I salute admin here for their tolerance and keeping things in order.

But as @prof  rightly points out, just what thread here doesn't go through the same twists and turns, only to end up an exercise in futility?

It's nice to get some kind of consensus now and again but audiophiles are no less ardent or strident when it comes to promoting their particular views on any matter. 

It's part and parcel for the game.

All the best,
Nonoise

...and then there are always those that live to pontificate...

Dave

dlcockrum,

It’s a forum comprised of people with different taste and viewpoints.What ever gets "resolved" here? Nothing that I can see. In fact, what is supposed to be resolved? You don’t see everyone agreeing on speakers, or speaker design, or amps/amp design, record cleaning, etc.

This thread is nothing different from the norm for most threads, whether it's a discussion about an audio brand, or some aspect of audio philosophy or any part of the hobby: people express their options on a subject, their reason why they hold them. Some other people agree, others don’t.

@nonoise,

Completely agree that cable threads are pointless (nothing ever gets resolved), but I will take 1000 of them vs one political thread...

Postscript: Just noticed that the political thread has mercifully been removed. I had nothing to do with it, but wish I did. :)

Dave

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/  

This thread is just another case of deja vu, all over again. 
Everyone back to your corners and come out swinging at the sound of the bell.

Now, the bell will sound different depending on the cables you use...

All the best,
Nonoise

+ 1 for cleeds .If it will upset it's stasis you brain will make sure you hear no difference !

Yes, cables do matter. But not as much as some seem to think. And yes, I do have a pretty good system. And I used to work for a dealer that had some of the best systems available. And my hearing is pretty good too. 
In my opinion, spending thousands of $ on one cable is not cost effective. But I have no problem with people that do. Whatever makes a person happy I guess

P.T. Barnum was right.

bac2vinyl

Power cables can not make a difference…Can not convince me that the power cables that came with my Marantz MM8077 or my Parasound A21 are mediocre.

This is a good example of the power of expectation bias. If you insist you cannot be convinced, then you are correct.

@geoffkait - Since you posted about, "pro audio" immediately after my post, regarding cables and studio use, I gathered that was to what you were referring. I couldn’t agree more, regarding compression, BUT- as far as, "all the old dudes": the first I mentioned(as well as the others) have avoided that huge pitfall. Matter of fact, it’s Bob Ludwig that’s been trying to get the industry and people in general, to understand how bad it sucks. A talk he gave at AES, regarding the Loudness Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWUOCbWp1M If anyone remembers, "the good old days", he does. If you’re interested in producers that avoid compression, even on CDs, try the labels I mentioned, if you’re into their preferred genres.