Yes they do. I’m not here to advocate for any particular brand but I’ve heard a lot and they do matter. High Fidelity reveal cables, Kubala Sosna Elation and Clarity Cable Natural. I’m having a listening session where all of them is doing a great job. I’ve had cables that were cheaper in my system but a nicely priced cable that matches your system is a must. I’m not here to argue what I’m not hearing because I have a pretty good ear. I’m enjoying these three brands today and each is presenting the music differently but very nicely. Those who say cables don’t matter. Get your ears checked. I have a system that’s worth about 30 to 35k retail. Now all of these brands are above 1k and up but they really are performing! What are your thoughts.
Unfortunately, "chair contains foam similar to something" does not equal "it sounds bad". Writing 101.
What-about-this and what-about-that routines are not that routine at all. I do understand that direct questions asked about your, to say it politely, vague and often incorrect statements may not be to your liking. Well, every now and then you run into a person who reads your post way better than you have ever written it. From time to time, you do show some knowledge and ability to contemplate in a positive way. Sadly, it often gets annihilated by your inept writing skills.
Maybe a course in creative writing would not be a bad first step. There is such a thing as "lifelong learning" and it is no shame to get better at something at an advanced age.
As a side note, I do not drink alcohol so you can start by taking comments about being drunk out of your writing style.
glupson, are you posting drunk again? I said the Ikea Poang Chair contained foam similar to Sonex. I just realized you probably have no idea what Sonex is or why I would find it objectionable. I suppose that’s the risk one takes when dealing with clean slates. Never mind.....
I’m standing by for some more of your bright what about this? what about that? routines.
I can see your viewpoint as a starting off of sorts, to those of us who've racked up some years in this hobby. Looks were important to me as a beginner as well but I've gotten over that a long time ago. Now I just rely on my ears, looks be damned. 😄
I suspect that you're prone to projection, at least in this case.
You are definitely right about that one.
At the same time, sides here are so fierce about their beliefs that no logic will settle it and, so far, I am the only one who raised the issue of the appearance as being important. If appearance were completely unimportant, many cables would look much more mundane.
People often buy cars based on the outside appearance while they never look at it that way while using it. It should not be inconceivable that appearance of the cables has some, maybe minor, influence in the buying decision. Some marketing and psychology professionals probably wrote books and books about it. Think of the second generation Suzuki Hayabusa design. Influenced and made to somehow resemble, among other things, the average/usual rider of that motorcycle shape. I am not saying that cable manufacturers think all their buyers are super-skinny, but they certainly do think about the visual presentation.
"Glupson, I didn’t say they were comfortable. I said they sounded bad."
You misunderstood me. I neither said, nor implied you said the IKEA chairs were comfortable. As chairs are primarily used for sitting and not changing the sound in the room, I did an usual mistake people make when watching the picture of the chair. I thought of how comfortable it would be. Your mentioning of stuffing in chairs being intolerable to you, enforced my opinion the chair may be uncomfortable. Stuffing in IKEA chairs is placed there for comfort purposes.
While we are at that, could you copy and post the part of your earlier thread you are referring to, in which you said "they sounded bad", so we can read it again? It may be hidden well-enough in your post that no Reading 101 would help. It may call for Writing 101, though.
I suspect that some, probably not all, of the buyers fall in the similar category. They want finishing touches to their equipment, a final stroke they may feel is missing. Something that, at least in their minds, matches the rest of their system. It does take some sheepish courage to admit you fell for the looks and that is where some of the bias may come from.
I suspect that you're prone to projection, at least in this case.
I think that bias may occur, although I am not sure it is always in favorable direction.
For whatever it is worth, I recently blasphemously bought a cable (RCA) without ever listening to it. It was a few-hundred-Dollar "upgrade" from $15-16 cable I had had (and still keep). I bought it for the looks. It simply appeared "fancier" on the pictures and was affordable enough for the purpose I had for it. I did not expect much and I got exactly that. The sound is not better for sure. In fact, I think nothing changed although someone might convince me it is even a little worse. I kept it connected because I like those shinier connectors, which I actually almost never see as they are behind the equipment. Was it worth it for the sound? Not at all. Was it worth it for me? Definitely yes. Would I buy it again? No way, novelty has worn off.
I suspect that some, probably not all, of the buyers fall in the similar category. They want finishing touches to their equipment, a final stroke they may feel is missing. Something that, at least in their minds, matches the rest of their system. It does take some sheepish courage to admit you fell for the looks and that is where some of the bias may come from.
If I have to use another RCA cable, I will go back to the $15-16 pair. Unlike these more expensive ones, cheap ones are pliable, have angled connectors, and can easily fit behind the equipment. Expensive ones are hard to bend and fit anywhere without strain. Does anyone else have a problem with stiffer cables?
To answer the title question of this thread, yes, cables matter, but it is not always for the sound.
All cables and power cords must be allowed time to settle in. Once the electrical-mechanical connection is disturbed you have to start all over. Even if the cables or cords are broken in. Therefore, any kind shootout or blind test is unreliable. It’s not that easy, MGee. Even if the cable or cord is moved without unplugging, that alone can affect the sound. That’s why the debate has gone on for what, 40 years? I don’t even have to bring up contact enhancers or cable elevators. Even when people think they hear differences in tests they sometimes change their mind later and think better if it for a number of reasons. Especially if the device is controversial. 😬
When you have 3 people sitting there listening to a system they have heard a number of times each in the past few years. All listen to the same 4-5 cuts using one set of cables, and then all listen to the same 4-5 cuts using the other set of cables. Each of them concludes in similar ways on what was improved, and it was transformational to the system. This was done with broken in cables that one or both of them brought over to hear. I had not bought anything yet, and really had no desire to do so, unless there was a significant difference in the sound and it took my system to a much more realistic sound. Being as all that happened, I then ordered the said cables from the distributer, or I bought them from one of my friends at a used price. Call it what you want, that is THE way to do listening tests and to possibly see if something is a vast improvement to your system IMO.
I may be wrong, but the fallacy that "some" seem to be making is people are purchasing cables without listening to them in their own system. I've listened to many different cables in my system. I have never purchased cables or anything based on cost.
Well I will say this. To each his own. In my system my choice of equipment and cabling work for me in my listening enviorment. Your room does play a major part in how your music sound. Positioning of speakers also play a major part. In my situation I’m basically locked in component wise. My system is very niche because of the brands I chose. They are great performers that most don’t know about so I think you should listen to your own ear to determine if the difference is worth it. I’m not going to go drop 5k on one Cable but I will spend a decent amount if I think a Cable brings out the little things that make enjoy my system more. It’s up to each individual to decide what he or she wants to do. Remember though you are the one listening to your system the most so you have to like it not anybody else. As far as hearing is concerned. Some can’t hear the difference. I actually can so for me and my ear enjoyment I will tweak with cabling a little. Enjoy everyone.
OK, I won't waste time with made up words. Archimago has tested a boat load of cables over the years. His methodology is sound. His metrics show no change to many of the quantifiable specifications regarding hifi that have an effect on sonic character. If you get a chance, that is at least worth looking at.
From an epistemological point of view you wrote, "There are those of us that know that they make a difference based on the ability of your system to be resolving and transparent."
How do you really "know?" Via the sense of hearing, is that as reliable as science? Only you can say what you think there. The business with high resolving systems sounds rather elitist and takes away from your credibility. If you say you can hear something in the cables, how can you say at the same time no one else can if they don't have a resolving and transparent system? That sounds like hypocrisy to me. Who is to say that confirmation bias is not at work either? Someone spends $500 on a cable because they believe it will enhance the sonic performance of their system is going to be psychologically pre-disposed to hearing it. There is no way around that. How much so is up for debate.
According to the picture on the Internet, that IKEA chair seems uncomfortable. Which one may claim for most, if not all, of the IKEA products.
The question arises, what is better investment for a $1000-2000? Good listening chair or a good cable of some kind?
EDIT: If I have calculated it right and IKEA chair is stuffed with same foam as Sonex acoustic foam, it may be cheaper to buy a few IKEA chairs and tear them apart than to buy Sonex foam itself. Of course, if one wants that Sonex foam in the first place.
Speaking of stuffing in chairs am I the only one who cannot tolerate the IKEA Poang Chair? You know, the cheap audiophile alternative chair, the one that’s stuffed with that same kind of foam as Sonex acoustic foam. Sonex has got to be one of the worst sounding materials ever foisted on unsuspecting and gullible audiophiles. Leather chairs, regardless of stuffing, are another irritant.
Yup, and they are not cheap, which is probably why they aren't in common usage. My parents had both, and they were sooooo comfortable, especially the down one ( and yeah they would go a bit flat but then you kinda tumbled it a bit and voila, tres fluffy ), and they do heat management really well ( which is something that became quite apparent when an upholsterer redid the down one and replaced the down with synthetic...and gawd was my dad pissed cause the boob had just totaled his Sunday afternoon nap spot )
It may be off the thread topic, but do they really make sofas with wool or down stuffing? My down jackets used to go flat quickly without me even sitting on them.
Like whether the sofa is covered with leather, or cloth ? And whether the cloth on that sofa is wool or synthetic ? And whether the stuffing in that sofa is wool or synthetic or down ? It all defines the diffuser/absorber you are sitting in.
"Lets remember that the room is the most important audio component and which provides the largest contribution to the "sound" of a system ( some have pegged that contribution at about 50% )."
What about ears? More precisely, the level/loudness of sound. For some reason, that does not get mentioned while it is easily one of the most crucial components of perception of the sound. I am talking about physiologically normal ears working well, not limited due to aging, hairstyle, or whatever else.
EDIT: Having no experience with "expensive" cables, I cannot claim it but I suspect that ear-accommodation effects may trump benefits gained from cables. I am not trying to argue that cables do not matter, but just remind about another big variable in the story.
I agree that being rich does not guarantee any kind of Nirvana and that the discussion about the sound should not include the price.
At the same time, more expensive equipment often does sound better than the cheap one. Reasons may be many, but expensive piece is frequently better than the significantly cheaper one. Of course, there are exceptions, many of them, to that observation. Still, at the end of the day, buying blindly (not even listening to it) $150 000 equipment is more likely to yield "better" sound than doing the same with $2000.
There are a few posts in this thread that are accurate, in my opinion, but not on the point. Incremental benefits of some more expensive products may not be worth the trouble for someone and may be perceived ridiculously expensive for such a small improvement to others, but they are still improvements. It is personal decision if it is worth it to the buyer. Many may say it is not, but every now and then someone may find $70000 power cord worthwhile. It depends, heavily, on the amount of disposable income and cannot be made as an universal statement what is worth it and what is not.
Now, of course, there is a question if that power cord makes a difference at all and that is the title of this thread anyway.
First, have to agree with calvinj that Clarity Cable is a very fine cable that on performance should have much greater place in the audio world, and very sadly it doesn’t.
Second, agree with dorkwad about the Schroeder Method, in my humble opinion it is one of those procedures that absolutely and conclusively shows how cables can have a positive effect on audio reproduction ( so obvious no double bind tests required ). Frankly, lo res, hi res, expensive, modest systems will all benefit from this upgrade. In fact, as a friend said, if you can’t hear the benefit might be a good time to find another hobby like golf, or something, anything that doesn’t require hearing acuity ( slightly paraphrased and explicates deleted )
And one more thing. Basically agree with geoffkait above about how system components in and off themselves can or cannot define how good it is at audio reproduction. At the very least until there is some discussion about the acoustic environment they are used in. Lets remember that the room is the most important audio component and which provides the largest contribution to the "sound" of a system ( some have pegged that contribution at about 50% ). Put a potentially great system in a crap room and guess what, there is an almost certainty that the great system will sound like crap ( with diminished ability to hear detail, nuance, and change, both large and small etc etc etc ).
Geoffkait: “A rich man has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle."
That must be a really big needle.
Why is being rich/able-to-afford so frequently mentioned as a negative trait on this forum?
>>>>>I don’t think it’s a negative trait per se. I think it’s negative only because expense of equipment or cables is irrelevant to most of the discussions about sound. Owning expensive equipment does not automatically mean the owner has found audio Nirvana or that his system even sounds good. Nor can he automatically win arguments based on the expense of his system. Even when he swears up and down his system sounds awesome. That’s what we call a logical fallacy. Asking someone to list his system is not really a way to find out what that system sounds like or to prove that system/cable X sounds better than system/cable Z. There are no shortcuts to Xanadu. 😛
Very cool, Calvinj. I finally found the components I truly love the sound of. The last thing I did was move the sound a little more organic with the choice of cables. The Schroeder method of shotgunning the same cables so you have 2 sets of cables going to one component, made a great difference in the sound towards more realism.
@glupson. It’s is something that I see not just on this forum but others as well. The ability or choice to spend more seems to be looked down own. I didn’t make my buying decisions lightly. I did a lot of research and demoing before I purchased each piece. I paid a little more than most would consider. But I love my sound. @dorkwad I actually use the same reference Cable as Doug Schroeder in parts of my system. Clarity Cable. They half great treble extension, open midrange and soundstage, a little bump in the lower minds and the bass. Nice sound.
Listen to the howling mob of blockheads in the street, a trick or two with listening tests, and the whole crowd's on its feet. I'm with Doug Schroeder on this one--if it is not a significant change for the better, than it is most likely a waste of money. If you have heard a whole new level of sound when switching to a different IC, PC, of SC, which I have SOMETIMES, don't tell me cables don't matter! VERY SMALL changes in sound aren't worth the trouble and often the cost it takes to buy the new one and sell the other. The changes that are a new paradigm to you are just awesome, especially when you can do so for a small money difference.
I think it’s what you personally look for and enjoy. I like to hear the decay of the cymbals, great drum work, piano playing and like very complex jazz material some wires will give you more of what you personally look for. I think this more the case when you have digital front ends. That’s why to me the digital and the analog systems are different to me. Digital has its own set of challenges.
You are making a claim that others have made here: that it takes a really high resolution system for cable differences to become apparent.
1. But as I keep pointing out: People with "lower res" systems have been talking about and reporting differences between cables for ages. You can go to Amazon and find hundreds and hundreds of customer comments on speaker cables and interconnects there, many of these people clearly are not using super high end gear. In fact you can look up cables on amazon costing a mere 14 bucks, and find a hundred people commenting, many on how they clearly made a sonic difference in their system.
Now, if you really need a high resolution system and/or high end cables for the differences to really show, then that implies all these "bottom feeding" folks are imagining things. And if all those people can imagine they are hearing differences every time they buy new cables on their lower end systems, then it just implies the role of imagination in hearing cable differences, which is a problem for anyone, high res system or not.
But IF these people....and the great many over the years with modest systems...are really hearing sonic differences, then it puts the lie to the idea that you need a super high res system to hear them. (And that’s usually the first thing some audiophiles claim to cable skeptics - "you must not have a high resolution enough system!")
2. The scale, and character of audible differences audiophiles often attribute to changing cables are not "subtle" but are often declared as "so obvious, you’d have to be deaf not to hear it." With changes in all manner of sonic attributes. There is no reason to think such obvious differences require some Super Special system. Even a modestly priced, well designed speaker for instance can easily show you very subtle sonic differences (for instance, between one album master and another, even subtle remastering, etc).
Old thread and ancient topic, but my .02...........Worked on top shelf military electronics for 45 years and we never worried about "better" cables until well up into the Ghz range.............Any cable, properly designed and terminated for the prescribed use should easily pass any electrical signals passing through it, period. Can cables sound "different" ? I guess they can or people wouldn't spend ridiculous sums for them. I suppose it comes down to your money, your choice, but I honestly think there are far better ways to improve your system sound than mega-buck wires.....................it is after all, simply wire with a dielectric. It should do nothing more than transfer a signal from point A to B.............If you have money to burn and it makes you happy, enjoy.
My impression is that high end audio since the 90's went down into a rabbit hole, which I would describe as 'data dump'. The majority of designers seem to focus on the highest possible resolution, as if the essence of music can best be communicated with maximum detail retrieval. Whether or not you agree with this is not the point.
My point is that cables will make a huge difference in 'data dump' systems, where just about everything makes a difference. In a way these are unstable systems, not unlike complex systems in nature on the verge of chaos (climate change comes to mind). They yield the highest 'information density', which can be exhilarating as well as highly unpredictable and volatile. You hear everything, but the musical message easily gets 'lost in translation'.
By comparison well designed vintage systems are more stable, being less 'close to the edge'. System balance is not that easily disturbed and the 'fabric' of the music remains intact, no matter what cables you use.
@elizabeth I agree with you. Some speakers have some pretty unique design improvements. My gato Fm6 have some pretty unique things that they do with the crossover as well as other things. My dac is made by the brother of the inventor of the ess Sabre chip. KR audio just sent me there newly developed just released Kt88 tubes. I have nothing against vintage gear but there have been technological advances in the hobby as well as in digital that I’m taking advantage of. I’m enjoying my run and my system. I have nothing against the budget guys or vintage guys. I think I have created a great sound And system that nobody else will have in terms of my combination of gear and cabling.
Yeah whatever, keep making your ASSumptions. Like I said before it was only used as a context in what I am doing with my system. I’ve heard great cheaper systems. I have heard great systems with things like bookshelf Sonus faber toys and a small name amplifier. Anyway I’m not here to convince you who I am. I have been blessed to hear entry level equipment all the way to the super high end. I settled with my equipment based on performance not price. As you see most of my gear is not from the big names in audio. I’ve done my research well and I enjoy my system and cabling. What works for you works for you. We will never probably hear each other’s systems. My system is actually up in a video on the Lone Star Audio Fest page. I’m happy with it and how I got to it. I hope you are with yours. Best wishes.
Whenever somebody starts off with "my system consists of 35K retail worth of equipment" it's a good indicator of the type of individual you're dealing with. I've swapped so many pieces in and out to get to where Im at I wouldn't even have a clue of what the retail of my system is! And more importantly I wouldn't even think to state that as a qualifier! It's pretty much meaningless… And you're the one that doesn't state anything as if it's an opinion. You stated definitively that if people think cables don't matter they should get their ears checked. But yet I'm the know it all…
As far as lack of knowledge. Whatever! My experiences are mine. You have your opinion. I have mine. That’s part of the problem here. A lot of you guys think you know it all. I don’t nor to I claim to. My opinions are different but your lack of knowledge led you to make that statement Most of what we talk about is opinion. But I guess my lack of knowledge led me to have my opinion. Lol. Anyway. Carry on.
@calvinj your making a lot of generalizations again that show your lack of knowledge. Like your using the terms vintage gear and cheap gear like its synonymous. Have you ever priced a pair of vitavox corner horns? Pair of western electric amps? Then you bring up the term audio envy. Like us us poor sods who run vintage just can’t afford modern stuff but lust after your system. Couldn’t be further from the truth. I run vintage gear because the pieces I run sound better to me and are built better. Nine times out of ten that modern piece your paying big bucks for is just a vintage idea/piece regurgitated. And back in the day a lot more engineering and money was applied to audio/new products. Magic fairy dust was not included. Your post denying that your one of those guys essentially proves it more than anything.
Definitely has no purpose for me and you to talk. ANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE WILLING TO CHIME IN AND SHARE WHAT GEAR THAT THEY ACTUALLY USE AND THEIR ACTUAL CABLE EXPERIENCES PLEASE CHIME IN.
I’ve never heard you say anything about your actual gear or cabling you have experience with. You always speak in general terms with these points of view that for people like me have no reference point. It’s not personal at @geoffkait I asked @prof what he had he shared it with me to give me s reference point all you did is give a blah blah blah so from this point on your opinions are not useful. Carry on
@geoffkait as a matter of fact get off the thread then if you don’t my opinions are worthless. Honestly I never cared about your opinions on any thread. YOU SPECIFICALLY. ALL YOU DO IS TROLL. You never discuss what particular gear you have you only try to portray others as snobs or looney because they do certain things with their systems. To be honest the minute I see your name in any thread I pretty much glaze of it because usually it’s a bunch of babble. Just like my opinions are worthless to you. For the most part yours have always been to me. I don’t care to engage with you because I don’t gain any perspective. It’s a waste of time. JUST BEING HONEST. DIDNT JUST START ON THIS THREAD ITS BEEN LIKE THSTVANY WHERE I SEE YOU POST. CHEERS.
calvinj Also the more your system is worth it allows you to put in and justify better cabl8ng and power cords. For some it’s nutty but our systems allow us to hear the difference. That’s all. It putting people down but if you can’t tell me what kit you are running your opinions are useless to me.
>>>>>Back at ya, slick! Your opinions are worthless to me. A rich man has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.
It isn’t about money to me. It’s about our experiences. If you have an opinion based on inserting different cables in your system and come to the conclusion they don’t make a difference. I can buy that and who am I to say anything different. Notice, I didn’t say sounds better or worse, but sounds different! Based on my experience cables can and do sound different. Are they worth the money is a entirely different question?
Ricred1 These threads can go crazy. For one there is quite a bit of money spent on cabling by some of us. The non believers think we are nutty. In addition to that some of us have higher end systems. People will get Audio envy and they wil say that it’s a waste to spend 8k 12k 20k 30k 50k and up on a speaker. They will call you crazy or snobbish. The truth is that there are some really great speakers out here and 8 times out of 10 the cost more. They have more r&d and build quality most of the time so you get better sound. I never diss the the sub 3k speakers some of them do a great job but these folks think we are bragging because of the gear. I’m not I’m just telling you for the most part there are some great speakers at the higher price points. A lot but not all but the better budget you. have if you know what you are doing you can put together a killer system. Also the more your system is worth it allows you to put in and justify better cabl8ng and power cords. For some it’s nutty but our systems allow us to hear the difference. That’s all. It putting people down but if you can’t tell me what kit you are running your opinions are useless to me.
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