Do Cables Wear Out?

Thank you, Zaikesman for that information. Im afraid in the begining I may not have stated my question clearly for some of you. My intention was simply to engage discussion on cables wearing out by any means. I believe the discussions to be quite edifying thus far and am pleased to see such intrest in this subject. Thanks, spl.

Naw, they sound better because after cutting the ends off the cables are shorter and have lower inductance, capacitance and resistance (sorry, couldn't resist).

Huh, now we can use outdoor speakers to do testing of the audibility of corrosion in copper wires, when a much more accurate visual test is available to detect corrosion. Maybe the difference has more to do with the fact that you have cut off a small piece of copper and then the connection is better and you could have abtained the same result by cutting off the cable when new and not submitted to so-called corrosion.
Salut, Bob P.

Does anyone know if capsaicin extract treatment can restore original conductivity in tarnished silver cables? Or in other words, will capsaicin bind to Silver sulphide and dissolve it?

Pabelson - just because you can't see gravity does not mean that there IS no gravity. I can say with a degree of certainty that most copper based cables that do not have coatings on the copper to prevent oxidation WILL suffer sonic degradation over time that is audible. Try this for yourself - run some lamp cord to a pair of outdoor speakers - strip the ends and connect the speakers. Enjoy the speakers all summer long. In the fall, do some critical listening to the speakers, then cut off the last 3" of wire , strip the insulation back and listen to the same material again. You will be amazed at the difference. Obviously, there will be more difference in areas of high humidity vs low humidity, so if you live in the desert, Pabelson, I understand - YOUR experiment might take longer to produce audible results for you.

Spl: Oops, I also forgot to mention -- as long as we're mentioning at all, we might as well be comprehensive about it -- that vdH (and possibly only one or two other brands) offers wires made from amorphous metals, another manufacturing process (different from OCC) that is said to avoid microstructural crystalline boundaries. (VdH calls this technology "Fusion" because it uses an alloy, and combines it with their LSC carbon coating. I haven't heard these cables, though I've heard good things about them.) BTW, I should hasten to add that I'm no more technically qualified than most audiophiles to really know anything about this whole supposed 'crystal' business or what effect it may or may not truly have on wire sound, which of course hasn't stopped me from using LSC and OCC wires in my own system...

JPW: In other words, you have no idea how much "corrosion" a speaker cable would typically suffer over X years, and whether that corrosion would reduce conductivity enough to be audible. So your earlier statements were based on . . . what exactly? Nothing that I can see.

I and others have noted that even decades-old wire can have very little visible tarnish, let alone corrosion. Seems to me you're trying to invent a problem that isn't there.

Pabelson, If someone (in this thread) said 15% over 3 years does that make a meaningful difference in your life? Would that be in a high humidity reqion or a low humidity region? Would that be lengths over 3 meters or shorter than 3 meters? Would that be solid core copper or stranded? Quantification of how much sonic deterioration in un-coated copper cables due to oxidation is something that I am certain THIS government would grant the funds required for the research necessary to give you a precise figure- you would dispute anyway. Enought... arggggggg

Spl: I use vdH carbon cables and am pretty familiar with the claims they make for them. FWIW, the info you quote from their site isn't about what you asked, i.e., that cables might somehow "wear out" due to conduction of electricity over time. (Personally, I give about as much credence to that theory as the LOLlers above.)

The passage you quoted is about the physical properties of metal cables as manufactured, not associated with aging. There are also metal cables made from wire drawn in a different process that don't exhibit the internal "cystalline boundary" characteristics vdH is referring to, known as Ohno continuous-casting (OCC, not to be confused with Orange County Choppers). In any event, the vdH carbon cables don't have these boundaries, which is the point they're trying to illustrate by way of comparison. VdH also asserts that their so-called Linear Structured Carbon (LSC) can neither oxidize over time nor be microscopically stressed or damaged by being sharply bent or repeatedly flexed.

How much any of this really means for home audio is highly debatable, but I do think The First Ultimate non-metal interconnect is an extremely high-fidelity set of wires when used in appropriate applications (it won't work in every system, for reasons we needn't go into here). VdH also makes cables where the metal wires are coated with a protective layer of conductive LSC (construction they label Hybrid), which is claimed to help mitigate the scenario noted by Greeni from the Audience website.

BTW, I've experienced the deterioration in both sound and flexibility correlated with copper oxidation in cheap clear-jacket cord used as speaker cable, but it took over 15 years to become objectionable under the prevalent conditions, and I wouldn't expect this to be a serious problem for typical audiophile-grade cables in most environments.

Yes, Kenyonbm thank you for that informative display, it is greatly appreciated by most everyone I believe.

Thank you Kenyonbm
  , the clear info is much appreciated.

I was trying to make the point that copper oxide, while not ever reaching 100% in an older cable, does have some significant deterioration of electrical characteristics, which are certainly audible.

But you still haven't told us *how much* deterioration, despite repeated requests that you supply this information. Do you not know? Because if you don't, your assertion that the deterioration is audible doesn't hold up.

Jwpstayman, you are very gracious. It is understandable that you felt under attack. I am sorry if I contributed to that feeling.
I am truely pleased that you found the reference useful.

Kenyonbm - thank you for your research and references - I will stand corrected on the silver oxide issue. I apologize to you for any terseness directed at you on my part in this thread as I felt like I was under attack for my input and comments relative to the subject at hand. I was trying to make the point that copper oxide, while not ever reaching 100% in an older cable, does have some significant deterioration of electrical characteristics, which are certainly audible. I also use a contact enhancer on all connections (Quicksilver gold), but more as a buffer to counteract the audible effects of dissimilar metals (silver RCA's to copper jacks or rhodium plate wall plug to copper outlet). In addition, I clean all the connections in the system twice a year with Kontak cleaner, just part of routine system housekeeping.

This person, who I quote without permission, has taken the time to educate him/her self and presents facts and analysis and recommendations logically and modestly.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1507
"Chu Gai Chu Gai is offline

Excuse me for interjecting here, but there's a substantial amount of misinformation and erroneous conclusions given in this thread.

First let's begin with some resistivities for the materials being discussed. Resistivity is the opposite of conductivity so the smaller the number, the less intrinsic resistance (greater conductivity) it possesses.

Copper: 1.7 X 10^-8 ohm-m
Silver: 1.6 X 10^-8 ohms-m
Gold: 2.4 X 10^-8 ohms-m
Silver Sulfide: 1.5 to 2.0 X 10^-3 ohm-m
Silver Oxide: 1 x 10^+9 ohms-m

As can be seen, silver has the lowest resistivity but gold and copper are not all that far behind. When talking things like speaker wire, the advantage of silver over gold is about 6% but that's an advantage that's more than offset by going one up on the gauge of copper.

Now, I've given the values also for the oxides and sulfides of silver. I don't have the values for copper readily at hand but I do seem to recall that copper oxides, and there are two forms - cupric oxide: CuO and cuprous oxide: Cu2O are in the vicinity of 3,000,000, that's 3 million times, worse than that of silver oxide.

One thing that should be obvious from the little table above, is that by no stretch of the imagination should one consider silver oxide to either be as good as a conductor as silver or in fact, desireable. As a conductor, it is 6,250,000,000,000,0000 or 6 quadrillion times WORSE. That makes it more like an insulator in my book or a semi-conductor if one wants to be generous. The reason why you get some conductance and might not even notice it even if its there, has to do with the thickness of the layer. If the oxide is perfectly uniform, it can be thin enough to not make a whit of difference. Further, if its thin enough, the simple act of inserting and removing an RCA, in other words, the friction, can be enough to dislodge enough material to expose enough silver. It doesn't take much to do the trick.

Along the lines of the silver oxide battery analogy, you're overlooking that a battery is a cell. One side, the positive, is indeed silver oxide but its not some disc of the material. Rather its in a sort of suspension and typically admixed with other chemicals such as manganese. The other side contains zinc. To bridge the two dissimilar substances is a suspension of sodium hydroxide. When one connects the anode and cathode, such as when one turns a light on, a circuit is completed and this allows the flow of electricity since the battery is now undergoing a chemical reaction which in the case of the silver oxide battery has a potential of 1.55 volts. Some may recall doing experiments such as taking a lemon and sticking in strips of copper on one side and zinc in the other to power a tiny motor.

Having a piece of silver or copper and exposing it to the air does not necessarily result in 100% oxidation. Perhaps a better term is that the base metal tarnishes. Tarnishing is what happens when this metal is exposed to the atmosphere in your particular environment. The atmosphere doesn't just contain oxygen though. It also contains particulates, moisture, carbon dioxide, sulfides, and a host of environmental pollutants some manmade, some generated from acres of forest fires, volcanic eruptions, and cows farting. Seriously.

Silver and copper all have a different affinity for these pollutants. In the case of copper, not only are oxides formed but carbonates (CO2 and water), sulfides, and hydroxides. Gone long enough, these are particularly hard substances and often to restore the copper, one must take strong, abrasive measures. Silver on the other hand, is not so prone carbonate formation but it does readily form sulfides, which you'll notice as a dark color. The silver oxide is essentially white or grayish.

Tarnishing, as in the case of RCA's, spades, or bananas, is a phenomenon that should be discouraged as unless you've got a perfect, tight, metal to metal contact that excludes the atmosphere 100%, it'll always be going on. Fortunately there are approaches that render this a moot point. Plating over with gold is inexpensive but one should bear in mind that gold is a soft metal and that the plating is often not thick - 10 or 20 microinches, maybe less. Further, unless the metal that's being plated over is quite smooth, if you're the sort of person that's always swapping out connectors, it won't take long before you've literally worn away the gold. One can look at rhodium or chrome or shiny nickel platings which are more durable. The thing is though, they don't quite have the same panache for many people as gold.

I've found that its not such a terrible thing to pick up some contact cleaners and related products. Caig used to, maybe still does, have small tubes of assorted products that one can use as routine maintenance, say on your birthday, to clean all your connectors. If you don't like Caig, use somebody elses. This yearly routine, or twice yearly if you're so inclined, will generally provide you with peace of mind and the knowledge that your cable/instrument connection is not a cause for concern."

Again, a pretty good source of information is available with very little effort.

The point I am trying to make is not that I am smarter than everyone else, which I am not, but that it is very easy to find truly informed sources to verify things before you post miss-information.

BobP - I never said that the resistance of copper conductors changed over time - go back and re-read my comments. I said that the surface of the copper conductors OXIDIZED over time and that this created several sonic "losses" in the cable compared to when that cable was first made. As for Kenyonbm, thanks for the link, but in the AUDIO cable business, "Litz" wire has been generally accepted to mean coated or enamaled wire- sort of the same way Kleenex is generally accepted as being a tissue The link was kinda interesting tho in a global sort of way. Look - I responded to the initial question and explained what was going on and why because of my experience. If some of you want to get into endless nit-picking, like whether or not a cables jacket and heat shrink prevent oxidation (it doesn't, but it does slow it down ), be my guest - knock yourselves out, have fun, enjoy... I suppose this is why some very knowledgable people now no longer bother trying to help others in the hobby.

JWP, just because you are older than me (you have a lot of experience) doesn't mean that you understand oxidation nor corrosion in metals. Silver oxide or sulphide which someone thoughtfully pointed out might conduct better than copper, but not better than silver. Insulated wire is not exposed to the atmosphere and thus does not coorode there, but at the exposed ends. I too would like to know the increase in resistance in a piece of wire after 10 years.
Salut, Bob P.

By the way, litz is not a coating but rather a type of wire configuration composed of a bundle of smaller wires, each coated or not.

http://www.litz-wire.com/

OK, JWP, tell us how much the measured resistance of 8 feet of 12 AWG speaker wire changes over 7 years. You've made the claim, and you've told us you have a LOT of experience, so show us what you've got.

By the way, the tarnish that forms on silver is sulfide not oxide.

http://educ.queensu.ca/~science/main/concept/chem/c03/C03DEEA1.htm

Scroll down to "EXPLANATION".

I haven't read all the responses, so this may be redundant.

When a cable's insulation changes (due to exposure to humidity/high temperature/contact with liquids, etc.), the cable's impedance changes. For example, airplane mechanics can tell whether a wire has been damaged due to exposure to humidity or hydraulic fluid just by measuring the impedance of the wire. In fact, they can tell not only whether a cable has been damaged, but also the starting point, length, and type of damage, just by measuring the impedance. Obviously insulators that resist environmental effects can reduce the problem.

The impedance changes are observable in the audio-frequency spectrum. So the impedance characteristic of the wire affects the signal and the sound.

Does this lower the sound quality? I don't know. Perhaps it makes it better.

I knew that my diatribe would start some controversy. BobP needs to llok at a chart of elements and electrical characteristics thereof - silver oxide is a better conductor than copper. He should also refrain from making comments like "no corrosion happen at the outside of wire if it is insulated". This is completely untrue - I tried to explain in some detail that oxidation starts immediately on the surface of the copper wire when the raw conductors are pulled and only coatings like enamal(Litz) are able to slow this process down significantly. To comment that insulation ( which in cable-talk is called dielectic) "cures" this process is completely false and misleading. No cable company that I am aware of vacuum seals their cables to prevent oxidation - it just isn't a good resolution for the problem. In my experience ( and I have a LOT), most non-litz-coated copper wire will have some audible effects from oxidation of the copper somewhere around the 6-7th year after being manufactured. For those that took the time to read these posts- I hope that my time in writing them was worthwhile for you.

Spl, not all commentary on breakdown or other issues, comical or not, serves us IF the comments are incorrect or misleading. Pabelson's comments are correct. BTW, Jwpstayman, silver oxide IS NOT a good conductor, but it does serve to protect the rest of the silver from corrosion, which is not true of cuprous oxide which just continues to grow if still exposed to air. The inner core is not exposed to air and therefore no corrosion happens and no corrosion happens at the outside of the copper wire either if it is insulated.
Cleaning the silver oxide on contacts is beneficial as it is on copper contacts.
Bob P.

It's good to see there's still some humor around this hobby.

Pabelson, all commentary on breakdown that serves to inform us hi-fi buyer's of drawbacks should not be frowned on. We all spend large amounts of $$$ to get our systems to sound great so in regards to Jwpstayman answer I feel it is welcome. I admit a niave understanding to the world of cable and it's properties of longevity and input to edify and give one's opinion should be welcomed, even those here to scoff.

Jwpstayman: If you want to respond substantively to a question, you first need to pay attention to the question. He wasn't asking if cables degrade over time; everything in the universe degrades over time. He was asking if particle breakdown occurs, and if loud rock music makes it occur faster. And it doesn't.

As for oxidation, this is a trivial problem. Oxidation occurs ver-r-ry slowly, except for the small section of the cable (if any) that's exposed to air. I have 25-year-old lampcord (which I once used as speaker cable!) that shows no visible signs of oxidation within the insulation, The exposed ends have oxidized--EXCEPT where they were in direct contact with speaker and amp terminals. This tiny bit of oxidation has a trivial effect on overall resistance.

Guidocorona,
That was good. I think you need a Machina Dynamica (AKA timex watch with an orange sticker on it) lcd watch to stick on your chest of drawers thingy and just step back and watch the tarnish dissapper as the mysterious device reverses entropy.

I realize that this thread has been used to poke fun at several responders, but I think that the real issue is - the guy that started this thread has a legitimate question.

The short answer to your question is YES - over time most cables will deteriorate sonically. Before I get a rash of rhetoric back - here's why:
The vast majority of cables for both speaker and interconnects are made from copper. The very moment that the copper conductors are either pulled or cast into wire, the oxidation process begins. Some companies try and prevent this with a litz or enamal coating, which certainly CAN be effective in slowing the oxidation process down, but it the oxidation still occurs, just at a slower rate. Why is this bad? Copper oxide is a terrible conductor - so as the oxidation process occurs, you will notice some loss of high frequencies, followed by some loss of soundstaging ability. At later stages, even bass response is affected, but that would be only in severe cases as lower frequencies penetrate the core of the conductor, which high frequencies travel on the surface.
Silver cables, on the other hand do NOT deteriorate, as silver oxide, while unpleasant to look (tarnish), is still a very good conductor. I always get a chuckle out of guys that clean the tarnish from their silver spades or RCA jacks and then report an improvement in sound - it doesn't work that way, sorry.
Obviously, carbon fibre cables are unaffected by the oxidation issue.
Yes - some cables DO age badly - they don't wear out and it certainly isn't dependent on what music or volume levels are used,but copper based conductors do deteriorate in performance over time.

Dpac996, I have a 20-year-old copper pot sitting on an an early 19th century Italian chest of drawer in my home's entrance. This pot is also badly tarnished in black and green. I thought that just normal passage of time, combined with oxygen, Carbon dyoxide and water vapor in the air were the cause of oxidation. Now I am wandering if instead perhaps excessive electron flow could be the cause. . . could the oak timber in the chest of drawer have become highly conductive over the last two centuries and my pot now be part of a vast and mysterious electric circuit? Or is its relative proximity to my stereo the culprit? Perhaps I should stick an Intelligent Chip on the lid of my pot and see if the tarnishing clears up by itself. . .

I don't know about wear out, but they can tarnish, even within the teflon (or other) sheath. I have personally witnessed this with kimber 8tc. The copper was tarnished through and through. It was a curious result. That will change the electrical properties as the adjacent conductors now have a nice green fuzz. Perhpas if one were to characterize the distortion of such a cable, it might be found to be of an even order nature, thus making everything sound nicer ;) cause even not odd is where it's at in our universe.
I am worn out of this post. eLater!

Those poor reindeer.

Gunbei, as you well know the June 30th 1908 Tunguska event incentral Siberia was clearly predicted by Nostradamus, whose prophetic work was an integral part of Mesmer's and Holbeins scientific toolkit. Furthermore, the recent attribution of the event to a meteorite or comet is most certainly of rductionist and reactionary origin. We all know the explosion was cause by runaway electron-flow jitter that precipitated the catastrophic particle disintegration of a cosmic Electraaglide Superchord, sometimes erroneously referred to as a common 'superstring' by the most revisionist modern cosmologists. The uncensored truth was paradoxically heralded by 2-inch-high headlines of the Krasnoyarskaia Gazeta for July 1st of the same year: "NEW HIGH-END POWERCHORD LAUNCHED HITS THE MARKET -- Hundreds Feared Dead, Thousand Missing, Hundreds Kilometers Of Forest Totally Flattened!!!!"

Ive been enjoying the serious and the nonsensical replies. I really enjoyed the Rent a Cable idea, oh and yes I do have a family and am far from numb Mitch as I have grown up around the Stereophile people here in Santa Fe so needless to say I have heard it all. The question has brought much entertainment and some intresting comments. Thanks.

Pabelson, I doubt if he feels anything, after reading this thread he is surely numb. As an observation, with the moniker spl, and considering his concern about wearing out his cables after "years of hard rock" he is either unmarried, or happily married. Rock on.

I wonder if the original poster feels his question has been answered.

"upcoming Tunguska region event"? They knew the meteorite was gonna hit before it did? :•)

Guidocorona -- It's such a relief see that we speak the same language!

Of course Grem, how could I dare dispute the words of such visionaries as Hans Holbein (the younger) c.1497–1543, and Friedrich Anton Mesmer 1734–1815. Their seminal work on visual hallucinatory side-effects of exposure to audio novelty products from MachinaDynamica remain true bastions of investigative research methodology. I can only regret that American Scientific's notoriously sluggish peer review process has taken over 500 years to approve Holbein's fundamental work, which had already been revised and approved for publication by Mesmer on the single 1908 issue of Physica Refutata dedicated to the upcoming Tunguska region event.

Guidocorona -- not so. It has been proven lately (see Holbein, & Mesmer in American Scientific, issue 69, Feb 31st 2009) that IC and CLC only impact air molecules, at quantum level.

On the other hand, OIL powered plants (the majority) inject paraben agents as preservatives into the electron flow. While this keeps the electrons immune from certain infections (and by the same token, protects our tubes & transistors from microbiological attack), it causes ALTERATIONS in the molecular structure of wires.

So given time, the wires ("cables") deteriorate and this is NON reversible!!!

So, buy back-up cables while the going is still good... as many as you can! There will come the day, not so far hence, when we will have equipment but NO WIRE!!!

Mitch2, do you mean to say that you are calling my bluff? . . . 'Twas just about time someone did these days! It's amazing the kind of rubbish I am getting away with on the more frivolous threads. On the other hand. . . I thought it was a really neat idea, and I am sure careful application of Intelligent Chips and Clever Little Clocks to anyone's CDp would alleviate much of the noise caused by highly ionized Sulphur plasma in dirty AC from cole-fired power plants.

Aloysius

Cable Threads on Audiogon NEVER wear out. They are always in fashion and there is at least one each week and they abound with clarity.

"Knarkle" valves? I'm frightened already. But from a fashion stand point what you describe would be an ideal match for Gilbert Yeung's Preamp Purse and Pump Monoblocks.

Tvad, using a penny or dime is how old timers determined if it was time to buy a new set of tires. If you could see the top of the President's head you have enough tread left. If not, time to fork out the dough!

Mitch2, you're a smart man. No matter how gorgeous the woman, I'd never, ever drink her bath water.

Three observations,

first, nobody has mentioned corrosion, which can occur to copper cables over time;

second, to Guidocorona, last time I checked coal or whatever fuel is used to power generators and does not cause impurities in the electron flow, no matter how dirty. However, the dirty coal might contribute to air pollution, greenhouse effect and global warming (which is bad for tube amps);

and finally, to Gunbei, I have not seen any pictures posted of your girlfriends but after the mental picture your post provides, I have made a note to self not to buy any used cables from you :>)

Tvad, would this be like checking to see if you can still see the top of Abe Lincoln or FDR's head?

Audiofeil, I like your idea! I'd imagine the payments on a $500 cable might work out to be $628 over three years. I wonder what the residual value will be at the end of the lease? At least excessive wear you mention would be covered under warranty, heheh.

Obviously there isn't enough to worry about!