Yeah, the hit and miss technique Tuners employ, constantly changing things is OK. but it's kind of the audio equivalent of British sports car enthusiasts, always tinkering. it can be therapeutic i suppose and self fulfilling like a prophecy. But that hit and miss approach only gets you so far,- it can only find local maximums. Finding the real optimum solution by hit and miss approaches is like trying to solve X simultaneous equations in X + n unknowns. the sheer number of variables will kill you every single time.. Guys, doesn't it make more sense to develop a plan for dealing with the vibration problem? A comprehensive plan, a combination if vibration isolation and resonance control. Otherwise, you leave yourself open to attack from many fronts. I like my cigar too but I take it out sometime. - Groucho Marx |
wood is too random and has unavoidable colorations. witness the tuning people do with wood, considering various tonal shades. and once you bring one coloration into the equation, then you have to seek another one for balance. every coloration reduces the pure view on the music. OTOH ’engineered’ materials using wood can allow for predictable resonance attenuation and a natural sort of predictable result. I use an engineered wood called panzerholtz under every piece of gear. it’s not only panzerholtz, but it’s a particular thickness, and with a particular cut-out on the bottom and specific footer interface. it’s called a Dazia and made by Taiko Audio in the Netherlands. I have 12 of these in my system. |
Why would there be any hit and miss LoL, tuning is tuning. Hit & Miss is called Plug & Play or random setups. The Method of Tuning is the most comprehensive system synergy method ever done in audio and music. "always tinkering" LoL another funny. Tuning is the direct opposite from unknowns. You need to get a stereo Geoff. Michael Green |
Michael, my offer to send a team of professional deprogrammers still stands. Although you’ve been using mass-on-spring isolation all this time it hasn’t sunk in yet, we’re on the same team. Hel-loo! Michael Green - unintentional isolationist. Geez, you’d think someone told you there was a horse thief in your ancestral tree. Welcome aboard, sailor! Now you need to learn the secret handshake 🤝 |
"wood is too random and has unavoidable colorations" But I also think it’s a starting place for those experimenting. A lot of my clients start off DIYing their wood pieces which I think is cool. Then when they get the real thing and comment on why does the authentic MGA wood sound so much better. The products I do sound better because it is born with a purpose, it’s not random but specifically chosen and voiced. My curing shop resembles an instrument builders space. I shipped 65 8’ long pieces last week to one client and when the shipper was loading he picked up a piece and went "d***". Then I played the piece of wood for him and he freaked out. But again everyone needs to start somewhere and many times the first DIY approaches get the wheels turning so I try to encourage playing around with different tones. Ultimately though getting the real thing is much easier to tune with. Plus buying the real thing is a lot less expensive than the learning curve of voicing. Michael Green |
This time both may be right. Tuning the way michaelgreen does certainly seems time-consuming and, at least in the long beginning, "hit or miss". Inefficient from time and effort perspective. At the same time, many people like doing things and figuring them out, perfecting their skills. They end up with good results after a while. Much less of "hit or miss" and much more predictable. That may be where michaelgreen is now. I doubt even he would say it was all smooth in the beginning. Heck, some people spend days trying to get a golf ball in a hole somewhere far. No real use for it, but they have fun along the way. I would walk there and put it in by hand, but that is not what drives them. They love the feeling they got so good that they can do it from the distance in a very inconvenient way. No harm done. |
Hi Glupson Now that we have developed the tools of tuning it’s pretty easy to do. The more difficult thing was the timing aspect. In the 70’s and 80’s most products, by design or mistake, were made of materials and applications that were more organic to the audio signal. When the 90’s got here designs changed dramatically and the products were more locked into their sound and became harder to mate to other components. Right then things should have stopped and the problem looked at. Instead HEA created it’s own little world of plug & play, not taking into account chassis, PC boards and a bunch of problems they were giving birth to not knowing what the end results would end up doing to the industry. HEA created a very impractical monster and then built a marketing scam around it. Once the reviewers put this to motion the progress stopped. Now that HEA has been in decline it’s time once again to push Tuning in a more practical sense. But tuning itself? Tuning itself is an easy discipline to learn and follow. I would say this though. It’s much easier for a person to use tuning right off the bat than it is for the person who has been HEA-ishly trained. To quote Jim Bookhard "you can’t tune a rock". let me give an example Remember when power cords started to be plugged into receptacles on the back of components? This was done so HEA could market power cords. Fact is a direct connection without using the extra plug sounds much better. Banana plugs, same issue. HEA built a plug & play world that made sound generally worse but it fit into a marketing play that worked beautifully. Problem now is things have been made so messed up for so long the general HEA public thinks these impractical moves are common place, even more high end, when in reality they were some huge steps backward. MG |
michaelgreen, I get the idea of tuning as an ongoing project, but I doubt that things you mentioned about High End Audio were that deliberate and wise product of a big conspiracy. More likely that someone jumped on the opportunity. Take your example of power cords that became detached. How many of the manufacturers of "boxes" started marketing their aftermarket power cords at that time? I am not sure that even today, decades later, there is a flood of power cords from manufacturers of amplifiers. What you seem to neglect in your approach is that many people do have more concerns than sound and windmills. Making a perfect room, stands, springs, whatever, is all fine but people have jobs, children to take to ballet classes, and dogs roaming the living room. For them, convenience accounts for lot. If they can change the sound by buying new piece of equipment instead of rearranging a living space and that over a long time, they are willing to accept a trade off. They have no time and energy to move things around a few times a day, or ever. And they do not feel scammed. Price is sometimes smaller factor that it seems at first. Those who enjoy their world of tuning must be a happy bunch. Nothing wrong with doing it and I am sure results may be great. It is just that it is not for everyone. Banana plugs are, for some of us, wonderful invention. Neat, convenient, perfect. Maybe there is some loss of audio quality for those who do not mind wires sticking out, but for the rest of us banana plugs are just fine. Whoever invented them does deserve whatever money she/he made with it. Theoretical discussions about why they are bad are great and may lead to improvement, but in practice, many people prefer them. Not because they got fooled by HEA industry. |
Hi Glupson I only give the feedback I get from people who have lived through the experience. I don’t add to or take away from what is. I don’t have the time or desire to head down paths that burn up my time as you can probably gather. not sure I used the words "big conspiracy" did I, if so sorry that would have been a bit stretched MG |
michaelgreen, I do not think you used "big conspiracy", but that is how it feels reading your thoughts about HEA. Like some monster decided to fool everyone and started doing things to prepare for a scam that would follow. Kind of like detaching power cords to prepare for selling them aftermarket. That is how your thoughts about HEA development come across, at least some of your thoughts. Not that I have love for any industry, but it might have all just been a gradual and unplanned development. HEA may be getting smaller these days, I do not know the numbers, but it still seems that every day I read about a product from a company I have never heard of. And they happen to be more and more expensive. Maybe to accommodate for smaller numbers sold? I have no idea, just observations. |
michaelgreen, As a completely theoretical/semantic/babbling exercise, and to come back to the title of this thread, would you consider paper (think: stack of magazines or newspapers) placed somewhere where usual wood is commonly used for vibration control, as "using wood for vibration control"? I am not saying "do it", "what are your experiences", or anything like that. Just "would it be wood for vibration control", regardless of outcome. If it worked, that would be a cheap one. I am basing that only on "save the trees" statements that sometimes urge you not to use paper. |
Hi Glupson I think I'm a little tough on the industry because of the numbers of people who have come to me to start tuning, and then they end up feeling ripped off by HEA because HEA was not being straight up about how audio works and instead kept selling up till that music lover became trapped in a "fixed sound" world. Do you have any idea how many folks have come to me and replaced their 100,000.00 plus system with a tunable 8,000-14,000 one? A $14,000.00 system completely blowing away the big buck systems and to boot one that you can make sound almost anyway you want. people can use whatever words work for them but this is the world I live in daily MG |
I kind of doubt too many people these days swallow the old axiom that you have to spend a lot of money to get good sound. Furthermore I don’t consider high end audio to be all about super expensive systems. It really more about attitude and knowledge. We just saw Michael Fremer’s room with a $100,000 system and 100,000 records jammed in the room with the system. That is the opposite of high end audio in my book. If he doesn’t know better he should. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Give me a break. Your comment that your $14,000 system kills $100,000 systems is pure salesmanship puffery. Obviously, there are a great many rich audiophiles who are all thumbs. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract all the stuff you forgot from school. He not busy being born is busy dying. |
Hi Glupson If you read some of Johnathan Skull's writing (I think it was he) he used cardboard boxes partly filled with newspaper for trapping his corners. Cardboard and newspaper (not so much slick print) can be fun to play with. If you ever run across me talking about making pressure boxes, the originals were cardboard. Tons of uses for compressed paper, or even loose crumpled. Sometimes however cardboard and paper can be a curse in a system, especially if you live in higher humidity. Btw thanks for your questions and being patient with me many times. Sometimes when I'm up here I barely have enough time to squeeze out a few words before needing to run, and I appreciate it very much when the questions are clear and stated in a way that makes it easy to answer and also with good intent. So much easier to answer things with good vibes attached to them instead of the bad vibes that for people like me are the wrong experiences. I literally spend all my time inside of the tuning vibe solving sound situations for people or having my mind in the right place while writing articles or evaluating. Getting out of tune is a drag and sometimes when I see people here on head trips or have bad intent it's simply a waste of time and productive life. thank you Glupson MG |
michaelgreenaudio915 posts04-26-2019 3:25pm Hi Glupson If you read some of Johnathan Skull’s writing (I think it was he) he used cardboard boxes partly filled with newspaper for trapping his corners. Cardboard and newspaper (not so much slick print) can be fun to play with. >>>>Yeah, I’ve tried those. About 30 years ago if memory serves. Pretty straightforward energy dissipaters. We call those tweaks. They absorb standing waves in room corners, which just goes to show you that even acoustic vibrations should not all be allowed to roam free, if I can be so bold. The room just like the electronics and cabling requires forethought and a plan of attack. You might not have been paying very close attention, I have, to all the developments in room acoustics treatment that have occurred lo, these last 25 years or so. Really quite remarkable. Not saying your stuff isn’t good, too. But I digress. Back to the boxes with magazines, balled up newspaper, you can call them tuning if you want to. Poor man’s Tube Traps, whatever. Of course this wood and paper thing can work against you. Removing all telephone books, in fact all books and magazines and newspapers from the house does wonders for the sound. You can call that tuning, too, if you want. |
Wow, people actually used newspapers as a part of audio manipulation. "Removing all telephone books, in fact all books and magazines and newspapers from the house does wonders for the sound."We must be living in the golden age of sound now. Not many phone books around, probably not even regular books. "Save the trees" |
Interesting side note. In our bands practice room/ recording studio... Yes sounds grander than it was!. Covering all walls and ceilings I affixed egg cartons. In England used to supply eggs wholesale in eggcrates that were approx 24" square. The SQ in the room while practicing and our humble 4 track recordings sounded pretty darn good to us for the cost invested. |
Dear geoffkait: If you are the same Geoff Kait who is the genius behind the Teleportation Tweak, I humbly apologize for any aspersions I cast upon your character. Long live quantum approaches to solving common hi-fi problems. Keep up the good work... Sincerely, Jay P.S. Also, I hereby apologize in advance for any cheap shots that I may take at you in the future. |
I have fairly recently been in a room designed by Art Noxon of Acoustic Sciences Corporation, and build using his products. The walls are double layers of sheet rock with Wall Damp constrained-layer damping between them. I rapped on a wall with my knuckles, and the sound produced was like knocking on a brick---non-resonant. In other words, the walls produced no sound of their own (right, I know; don’t knock on your walls when music is playing ;-) . That’s "one" approach, another is to "tune" your walls until the room sounds "good" to you on any given piece of music. Sure, you may then have to "retune" the walls for another piece of music, but what price musical pleasure? All the wall/wall and wall/ceiling intersections of the room are fitted with ASC Acoustic Soffits, to absorb room mode standing waves/resonances. Because of that, the room is very "neutral", not imposing its’ own sound on that of the source material and hi-fi system. That’s "one" approach, another is to let those standing waves roam free, in the name of not "killing" ANY vibrations, mechanical or acoustic (’cause, you know man, music is vibrations). You may then take measures to "corral" those acoustic vibrations, to produce from the recordings you are playing the sound YOU want. It’s all about you, man. J. Gordon Holt was right about the generation of audiophiles that followed his. |
Maybe not so obviously, the walls of an ordinary room act like a drum head whilst music is playing. This drum head action is separate issue from standing waves and reflected waves and room echoes. There are some things one can do to alleviate this particular interference to the primary signal from the speakers without going too crazy. Some of these techniques can be used for Windows, too. Marigo VTS (constrained layer) Large Dots for walls. Tekna Sonic Dampers (now out of production, unfortunately). The product for taming speaker cabinet vibrations works great for room walls, too. Crystals (Brilliant Pebbles) are excellent vibration dissipators and can be used on room walls. You can find the maximum areas of flex 💪 on the walls by experimenting. Golden Sound Acoustic Discs for room corners also work on things like room walls, power cord plugs, electronic chassis, etc. |
Question- When a signal passes through a wire, the signal-for lack of a better word-flows from the source to the speakers. The electrons in the wire do NOT flow. The are stationary. But, they do vibrate. Doesn't the electron vibration within the wire cause vibrational distortion? And if so, how can it be possible to negate the effect of that vibrational distortion? |
If an electron vibrates, which it might very well, even as a quantum particle, the total forces (sum of all f=ma) of the vibration of all the electrons in the wire would be very small compared to the sum of forces produced by acoustic waves and structural vibration, transformer vibration, etc. in the room. I.e., mass of an electron is exceedingly small. Thus, the sum of the electron “vibratory” forces is very small. So you can ignore electron vibration, assuming there is any. A similar question is whether or not the audio signal itself is vibrating AND whether it is vulnerable to distortion from local external forces. |
Yes, the electron vibratory forces would be very small. But, since the electrons are inside the wire and is the signals transport system and the signal is flowing through-around, however- them, one could posit that this vibration would have an outsized vibratory effect that cannot be counteracted by any means. If the electrons are vibrating, and the audio signal is passing through them, how can it not cause the audio signal to vibrate? This could be another reason why your music playback system sounds so clear to you. Less wire and cables, less electron vibration in the signal path.... |
Let’s say you’re right, for the sake of argument. Let’s say electrons vibrate and let’s say they somehow distort the audio signal. But as you say, there’s nothing you can do about it. So, why worry about something you can’t do anything about? Especially in light of the fact there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS you CAN do something about. You might as well wonder why the signal of photons can travel at lightspeed through a solid copper conductor without being distorted by ramming into something more substantial than an electron, you know, like atoms and atomic nuclei. Follow? At the same time less wire does mean less distortion caused by the directionality being incorrect 50% of the time. That much I will grant you. There are other losses and distortions in wire and cable, too. You know, dielectric material, purity and type of metal, geometry, etc. So, yes, less wire means less noise and distortion. |
Here's my recommendation, start hanging out where people are actually doing the things being talked about here. If you always stay in talk mode years pass by and you never get to the sound or the variables. Watching someone experience vibratory tuning you get to see the hobby change for them in front of your eyes. There's no debate, no argument and the proof is right in front of them to explore as much as they wish. MG |
Oops! looks like we’ve been interrupted by a message from our sponsors. 😬 Note to Michael: Everything is debatable and arguable. You just choose to be either unwilling to debate or unable to generate a reasonable counterargument. Repeating,”I’m right and you’re wrong” is not really a very effective method of argument. Have you given any consideration to taking a physics refresher course or two? As I’ve pointed out there is actually a lot of overlap between tweaking and tuning. No reason for the Us and Them mentality. Peace out. “Because it’s what I choose to believe.” - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw, Prometheus The Backfire Effect is the phenomenon that occurs when someone’s confronted with contradictory evidence or counter arguments to his preconceived notions of audio, physics, reality, whatever. He digs in even deeper and becomes more convinced his closely held beliefs must be right. |
glupson1,999 posts04-26-2019 8:02pmCan a person teleportation tweak her/himself out of a solitary confinement? >>>>Jeff Goldblum was successful in transporting the baboon in The Fly from one pod to another so maybe there’s hope for you yet. |
@geoffkait , Geoff, please don’t mistake my supposition for worry. Electron vibration in an audio signal registers zero on my worry meter. It was just interesting to me to point it out. @michaelgreenaudio- So Mike, you and your followers are ’walking the walk’ when it comes to electron vibration within a wire?? Please tell me how you’ve all managed to ’tune’ the electrons and are preventing them from vibrating. You know, since Geoff and I are only in talk mode about it. And since your hanging out with the people who are actually doing the things being talked about here. We're discussing a theoretical supposition here, that if true, most likely cannot be prevented. How on Earth can you 'walk' that one? |
There are a couple of things I can think of right this second that are not amenable to vibration isolation or tuning, not completely. One is the scattered laser light problem. The other is the vibration of the thin wimpy out of round CD whilst spinning, its tendency to wobble and resonate make it exceedingly difficult for the laser to track the nanoscale data, actually impossible. These are both serious drawbacks to be jumping right into nano technology without knowing about them. Of course, the shame is nobody in the industry in the nearly 40 years has done anything about it. Assuming they even know about the problems, which they probably don’t. I think I can now say without fear of contradiction unless you’ve conquered those two problems you are in Nowheresville. |
Let’s say you’re right, for the sake of argument. Let’s say electrons vibrate and let’s say they somehow distort the audio signal. But as you say, there’s nothing you can do about it. So, why worry about something you can’t do anything about? Especially in light of the fact there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS you CAN do something about. You might as well wonder why the signal of photons can travel at lightspeed through a solid copper conductor without being distorted by ramming into something more substantial than an electron, you know, like atoms and atomic nuclei. Follow?’Low noise transistors’ are an interesting concept. It is also interesting to note that a noise free transistor would not work. (ie , transistor 'fail', as in not work at all - no functionality) |
"@michaelgreenaudio- So Mike, you and your followers are ’walking the walk’ when it comes to electron vibration within a wire?? Please tell me how you’ve all managed to ’tune’ the electrons and are preventing them from vibrating. You know, since Geoff and I are only in talk mode about it. And since your hanging out with the people who are actually doing the things being talked about here. We're discussing a theoretical supposition I've tuned 3 systems today and about to work on my 4th. I think some of you are discussing theoretical supposition, but not me, I'm doing. Michael Green |
It is possible to do something without knowing why it worked. The problem is when one tries too hard to explain why it works and gets tangled in that. At the same time, good theory is always a good start, but does not guarantee real-life outcome. There is nothing wrong with theoretical discussion, it is amusing indeed, and there is nothing wrong with having practical experience and not being able to pinpoint the explanation. Not every good car mechanic can explain details about physics that goes into car functioning on molecular level . Does anyone think less of them because of that? It is fun understanding how it all works, though. |
Hi Glupson Another thing you should consider is where we are. I for one am not going to get very technical here. Someone wants to come to my forum that's a different story, but here no thanks. As you said it's "amusing" and it's "tangled", but one thing it is not is qualified. Not saying that some of the people here are not qualified, but mixed among the insanity is not the right place for a serious conversation. MG |
there is a place for science and there is a place for trial and error and curiously both paths collide in this hobby. I'll not argue there is substantial science in the designs and builds of electronic equipment, though the 'exact' process by which it's associated parts are amassed into a highly resolving soul satisfying audio system has yet to be published which attends to every concievable modification, choice, or incongruity. how many filaments did Edison go thru before he found one that would last for more than scant seconds? then minutes? then hours and days? Edison even tried horsehair! ever wonder exactly where horse hair was on that list? as for reputed 'colorations' attributed to wood types, sometimes the audio needs coloration. or better said, 'colorization', or merely some added color. everytime Edison tried a new filament material that did not work he came one step closer to the one which would. often in the course of science remarkable solutions or results occur which took place entirely from happenstance or mistakes and they were as such not a part of the original method being attended to. Thankfully Edison's ideas on DC current/voltage were short sighted enough he lost out to Tesla and Westinghouse' approach for using AC energy. Tesla too had to swap horses in mid stream and he had the genius to build an induction motor with alternating coils and forego his plans on transmitting electricity thru the air . when in completely uncharted waters, how does one choose a particular direction, or know that direction is the best one with which to begin? even scientists have to guess now and then. indeed we all guess, speculate, and theorize, with everything we do. when we buy an amp for our speakers. cables for our amps. tubes for our tube gear. despite the inherent science in this or that's build or application, its all trial and error. guess work. although asembling an audio system then updating and or upgrading it to elevate its total performance is or can be quite involved and often tedious, sonic quality is a much easier and far simpler proposition. here the quality is a purely subjective accounting of the presentation by the one who pays the bills, and at times possibly the input from their better half. as for wood footers, their influence on the sound seems to be about density and the length of their fibers which make up the various kinds of trees being utilized. IMHO, Ebnony and Mahogany are my favs. however it do depend on the application, rack, device, etc.. RWV |
Marconi developed long range wireless communications over the course of many years, building larger and larger towers and more powerful transmit stations until they finally collapsed by their own weight. He had miscalculated that radio transmissions had to be long wave high power. At the time it was not known what an electromagnetic wave even was. No one knew. Marconi did not believe radio waves traveled in straight lines. He thought they followed the curvature of the Earth. As it turned out in the end the waves are very short and require only very low power. By contrast ELF (long wave) communications at wavelength of 75 Hz requires one million watts of transmit power. This is what happens sometimes, when people assume something and take it to the extreme. Sound familiar? |
geoffkait, The thickness of the membrane(s) surrounding a brain was one of the parameters I had on my mind earlier in this thread about vibration. I would guess that Dura accounts for more than Pia and Arachnoidea together and would consider it much more significant during these discussions. Before you make fun of my language skills, consider the fact that your English seems to be slightly underdeveloped for a native speaker/writer. Try "Sounds familiar?" instead of "Sound familiar? next time. |
I read a great little book about Marconi by Erik Larson who is just a great writer IMHO. http://eriklarsonbooks.com/the-books/thunderstruck/ |
