Done buying new vinyl

Revisiting this to add that I've bought about 20 new LPs since and quality has improved across the board. Most are not late-50s-70s-analog gems but the vinyl is quiet enough and clarity has improved.

Appreciate this thread. I recently bought a $2500 DAC to bring my digital up to par with my analog and what I’m discovering is that the DAC sounds so good with redbook CDs that I’m in this prolonged evaluation process to determine which albums are better on vinyl vs CD. What that’s meaning to me so far is that other than my high end jazz (original 50s and 60s pressings, Music Matters, Analogue Productions, MoFi etc), I’m hanging onto vinyl only if pressings are OOP/collectible or only available in that format. Improvements in DAC technology is really exposing mass-produced vinyl to be a fad/fraud if you ask me. And, believe me, I didn’t want that to be true.

YMMV. But that’s where I’m at with it.

@therobert: Whole-heartedly agree on the Welch. That’s a brilliant pressing. But note the lengths they went to make that happen.

Most of the jazz reissues from Fantasy are really good reissues, especially the one they did of the Contemporary recordings. Here's some examples of outstanding reissues:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAROLD-LAND-In-The-Land-Of-Jazz-LP-on-Contemporary-ojc/332537985249?hash=it...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAROLD-LAND-The-Fox-LP-on-Contemporary-ojc/332537986584?hash=item4d6ccefe18...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cannonball-Adderley-Know-What-I-Mean-Vinyl-New/361806507476?epid=112482247&...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Music-of-BOB-COOPER-Frank-Rosolino-Mel-Lewis-Victor-Feldman-Lou-Levy-LP/362...

Frank

slaw: I suppose I felt that that your zen-like simplicity ;~) deserved some further elaboration. Especially for anyone just getting into vinyl.

@wesheadly,

You took several paragraphs to explain what I thought I previously said in one sentence!

What's your point?

Great thread!  Yes, do us all a favor and send the lousy sounding records back with a note that they sound like crap. $25, $30, $50, $65 whatever for new pressings should definitely sound better than a $13 CD.

The pressings of new releases I have acquired most recently have been good to very good.  Repressings have been excellent (50th anniversary edition of Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage on green vinyl from Blue Note) to at least decent sounding, even 180g reissues of 70 rock albums that were randomly splayed across a shelf at Fred Meyer. Lucky I guess.

I agree with all that has been said about an industry that has been rescued from the dust bin and is shaking off the rust.  But even my old albums from the 60s, 70s and 80s (and my dads albums from the 50s) had “texture” in quality certainly between records, and between examples of the same recording.  Everyone has had one or two ablums with sound quality that ran circles around the rest of your vinyl.  And others that were meh at best.  I guess this is why people pay mad money for hot stampers.

I have the luxury of buying used records at several shops that afford the ability to listen before you buy, so all factors from mastering to record care history are exposed.  I often end up buying something unexpected, and maybe paying a premium for it, just because it sounds so good even through the very rudimentary gear available.  Again, lucky.

...and don't worry, the number of typos in my paragraph is inversely correlated with the clicks on our records! 

@alphajet7 Feel free to plug away. Many already do, and we don't want you to fade away! For the record (!), I do buy quite a bit of new vinyl mostly to support artists whose music I listen to on YouTube (which I could not live without.)

@wesheadly,

You took several paragraphs to explain what I thought I previously said in one sentence!

Always send back poor vinyl. It is not acceptable. We master and cut vinyl in-house using the best vintage gear and the best engineers. We use the best pressing plant in the world. We have reviews from tech experts and music critics alike (and Fremer) and mostly get 4 and 5 star reviews. We try for AAA whererever possible and if the source is digital, only cut from 24/96 or 192 (yes 192!). I am not going to tell you who we are, becaseu this is not a shameless plug, but rather that there are a few of us doing it right. Our guiding light is Mercury Lvigin Presnece or RCA recording of old. Mr. Fine had it right. Read about Robert Fine and one will uindertand the legnths wie go to for both our won releases and 3rd party releases. 

The point of my diatribe is, please continue to buy new vinyl otherwise peole like us will fade away.

I've been buying vinyl for decades, but went near 100% digital from the late 1980's until about 2010. I have thousands of CDs and several thousand LP's. I continue to buy a mix new music and older stuff.

It has always been a mixed bag. When done right vinyl almost always sounds obviously better than digital.

There is wide variation of quality between pressers. I use the Discogs website to lookup both old and new pressings and can usually get either the name of the presser or some comments on the quality of a particular pressing. Very useful. There are some pressers that are so consistently bad that I'll skip buying their vinyl altogether when I see their name as I've been taught the hard way that nearly every issue they produce is crap. Others so consistently excellent that I buy without much of a care and am usually satisfied.

Some years back The Beatles released their black box complete album set. When I received my first copy, without doing any research I was very disappointed with the vinyl- constant noise, distortion, warps- pure sh!t. I went to Discogs and noted there were two additions pressed- US and EU. The US was pressed at Rainbo (renowned for consistently horrid quality products) and Optimal Media in Germany (renowned for their generally high quality). I contacted the label (not easy to do) and found a product manager. They sent me a new set right away-- still a US copy-- and still pure crap. I wrote them back and let them know. Next they sent out an EU copy. Vastly superior- a keeper.

When The Beatles issued their white box mono box set I noted that all editions were pressed at Optimal Media-- done to near perfection. No return necessary.

So these days, because we have the Internet, I believe it is essential, if you care about quality, to research the version you're going to buy so at least you'll have some sense of confidence (or not) of what you are LIKELY to get.

I also can tell you as a curator of vinyl that nearly everything needs to be pre-cleaned whether old or new. This is just part of the hobby if you really care about sound quality. Not all LP's can be improved by cleaning as most of you know, but many if not most can be. Many require multiple cleanings.

Overall I'd venture to say that vinyl quality is improving because there is a lot more competition entering the market and because vinyl, which used to be the only medium for purchase is now one of several options, and is marketed as the "premium" version of the product-- creating higher (justifiable so) expectations from many consumers. 

For a time, some years back, when vinyl sales were skyrocketing and there were far too few pressers, labels (due to marketing/touring) considerations had little choice other than to book the job with whomever could get it done within their time-frame. This caused an avalanche of bad product to hit the market. This has slowly ameliorated as new plants have opened for business.

If you get a dud-- RETURN IT. This is how you "teach" companies to do a better job in the long run.

Vinyl is not for everybody. It is expensive, it is still hit and miss (although you will get better at avoiding the latter if you do a bit of research), and you absolutely need a good turntable, cartridge, and phono preamp (there are now MANY choices in all price ranges).

The reward for me is totally worth the time and money invested. Since being able to get virtually anything I want on vinyl again I hardly listen to CD's anymore, and instinctively grab the vinyl over the other choices.

A huge longterm difference is also listener fatigue (which I may be causing a bit of here with this long post). With vinyl I experience none at all and always want to hear more, with digital I have always found that I want to hear less. 

For what it's worth...

If you're seriously into vinyl, these issues will be addressed by the end user's commitment in a lp flattener, a Us cleaner. If this isn't an option, go digital.

So I have an original but slightly scratched copy and a new copy of Talking Heads Speaking in Tongues both sound remarkably similar until the last track on side two when the new copy is mistracking and sounds dreadful, if I didn’t have the original to make the comparison I would have thought my cartridge was out of alignment!! Three new pressings that I’ve bought in sealed wrappers have all been warped!! Doesn’t bode well for new vinyl although the Donald Fagen box set is superb in every way!

@noromance,

Definately something to remember.

@slaw That old dialectic! Jazz goes back, Aldous stays.

@therobert,

A BIG +1

Listen to the somewhat recently released "The Harrow and the Harvest" by Gillian Welch, and you will quickly realize that there are some great new vinyl releases out there. Holy crap does it sound fantastic. 

@noromance ,

I thought the original question was, "should I send them back"?

Run, do not walk, and scarf up as many of the Music Matters Blue Notes that you can find.  There is a great thread on the Steve Hoffman forum (really long!) that will give you everything you need to pick the right records.  These reissues, especially the 45rpm versions, are incredible.  I've been on a buying binge lately and every time I spin a new one I'm blown away by the tone, air and ambiance that comes through from these records.  They are some of the greatest jazz records of all time redone with loving care in breathtaking fidelity.  The most coveted ones are either gone completely or reaching stratospheric prices so I would'nt waste any time in grabbing what's still available.   The 45rpms have all the tone and warmth of the originals and add gobs of air energizing the entire listening room with sound.  Amazing!

Some great points. At the end of the day, we are in agreement. It is the recording/mixing and not the pressing or the medium. I played my 1968 White Album which is not in the best of shape. Pops, crackles, frying eggs, the lot. Yet the music bursts forth off the vinyl. Crystal clear and full of detail, studio air, with Ringo’s rim-shots that crack you out of your chair. So, I don’t mind vinyl noise as long as the recording excels. Muted, dull with dead acoustics, mixed to death digitally, that sound like Dolby is on, seem to be the order of the day now.

FWIW, as you all know, vinyl is a major commitment. Pressings that aren’t the best in terms of transparency or suffer from an overall lack luster performance are made more enjoyable with a good US cleaning.

My experience with all of the mentioned mediums has always been mixed.  I don’t know know a lot about the whole recording, mastering, and transfer to each medium.  I’ve got great sounding vinyl, eg jazz from East Wind and Three Blind Mice, but some recent reissues that are not very good.  Same for CDs, my main source.  Most are great, some awful.  In the end, I think its all about how well the original recording is made, and how well its mastered and transfered to the product that reaches the consumer.

For some people it's a PITA , for others it's a labor of love.

Hi guys. I have been listening at John Surman and Garbarek ECM CDs for decades. Digital as well. I recently bought a collection of ECM LPs of the same albums ie Private City, Legend of the 7 dreams, Rites and so on. What I can say is that I have been highly disappointed. The quality is not what one can expect from an analogue sounding LP. The sound is thin, in a nutshell, I even find it sometimes less good than the CD or digital streaming. These pressing are of course digital, as opposed to an old ECM pressing from the 70’s I found in a second hand shop at Montreal which is called Conference of the Birds (Dave Holland) which in turn is an analogue pressing and sounds marvellous, with flesh and so on. I suspect ECM to deliberately create "CD sounding LPs" as a way to satisfy a majority of people who own poor equipment and cannot extract the best of a rich analogue pressing. I do not want to look paranoiac but I guess this is a profitability issue at the end ie they can sell more of these "CD sounding LPs". I am so disappointed from ECM, that I definitely stopped buying their new releases, even in CD, and enjoy the streaming versions with Spotify.  If someone can advise on a label which is only making LP pressing from analogue sources, I am interested to know which one is.

Used vinyl all the way. I have yet to hear a new release that sounded as good. Missing some magic. Somehow, they seem better at recording and mastering/pressing, in the 70, 80's, early 90's vinyl I buy. Check Discogs for mint and mint minus copies.

It’s all about who mastered the recording. The 60’s thru 80’s pressings I own, the mastering varies. I would have to say that even the worst mastering of the classic pressings are still better compared to the ill non-experienced mastering going on today.  Plus, you have analog mastering & digital mastering, two different worlds. Digital mastering is incompatible for vinyl as they can sound like a CD when playing them, but, there some exceptional ones done for live recordings with the new HD mastering process. Another thought here is great mastering equals excellent soundstage, air and dynamics, and that’s what we all desire. Today's vinyl releases are made with some of the best vinyl weight we have seen, along with premium grade processes, however, bad mastering tears up everything great about today's pressings and that is the atrocity.

I'd send them back if I were you. If you aren't happy with the quality, then by all means return them for a refund. I am not a fan of vinyl, especially the new vinyl of today.

@orangemath


what is the name of the engineer you mention? Thank you,
Kevin

Maybe we need a list of primo pressings, both in sonics and pressing quality, (I'm over poring over hundreds of pages on the Hoffman forum).

I'll start with my latest:

Yardbirds 68 (Very nice on both counts)

There are a number of vinyl producers that have a poor reputation for quality. I choose to do business with outfits that have a good reputation for consistent  quality control. Acoustic Sounds, Mobility Fidelity, and a many european and domestic producers can be trusted. However there is always the possibility of something slipping by that's defective. In that case return it and get a refund or replacement. Research and selective  buying is paramount. Today you can't expect to get a good vinyl record for less than 25 or 30 dollars unless they are running  a special. 

Ortofon Cadenza Black to a Zesto Andros phono stage.

My new rule is to only get the special limited edition reissues like the Mobile Fidelity one-step ultradiscs and the stuff produced by Analogue Productions.  I have had best of luck with their stuff like the Verve Jazz and BlueNote, Prestige series.  MusicMatters BlueNotes too are well worth it, if you can still get them. 

The other stuff seems like rubbish.  I picked up two of my favorite Alan Parson's project albums produced by Speakers Corner and they are not up to my standards.  Not for what they charge for these things!

I think I'm going to start making best use of my Tidal streaming account now that I can play MQA.  It sounds damn good to my ears.

A question or all of you. What is your favorite cartridge and what phono stage are you using??????

Nothing is perfect. So sit back and enjoy the music. It seems that to many people are looking for problems. Back when we were younger we had fun listening to "our" music. But now there are so many people, companies trying to sell us the next best thing to clean our LP's. If we don't use a cabinet of cleaning items our music will not sound good. I agree with some of the ways of cleaning only because of testing myself.
 Just enjoy the music.
Ron

Some new vinyl may be crap but there is plenty of really good remastered vinyl. I'm very happy with all the vinyl I've bought from MoFi. I have a Bobby Darin album. Tony Bennett, Bill Withers which is particularly good and if you can find the 45 rpm version of Donald Fagen's Nightfly. it's spectacular. Some of these are very pricey, especially the 180 gram 45 rpm remasters but they sound amazing.

So Mabey its not my table that’s horrible . I even went and bought a new phono stage . Some new vinyl that I have been buying is downright horrible . Metallica justice for all album bought at best buy can t even hear the voices or drums . Sounds like a tin can . Mabey I won’t sell my rig 

So are the new records made in China?

I'm stunned by your comment on "Beautiful Jazz." You may or may not like the music, but it has exceptional range and extremely little processing. The engineer involved is truly one of the finest in the industry.

Pressings are another matter. Clicks throughout one side would drive me crazy. I'm surprised. My pressing is perfect.

Do I have the numbers, realthing? In my post above, it was I asking you for the data to support your statement "all (?) modern source material being digitally recorded/mastered". Remember, I did NOT say your statement is false. I myself have never seen the data that supports or refutes your statement. Do YOU have the numbers?

@realthing

"why then add all the added processing into vinyl and replaying on a mechanical device..."

This is a great (technical) question. But as in all things audio that are subjective to a certain extent, there will be many answers that supersede the logic of it all.

I know you did not ask me but I felt compelled to respond.

LPs are what I grew up with. The joy of the physical medium, the ability to hold something substantial in your hands and gaze/read while listening. It’s the connection I’ve always had with the medium. It brings me great joy just to be around lps. That may be why my collection is in my living room? Just my two cents.

Getting into digital does not excite me in any way. I continue to enjoy my path more and more.

Oh yeah, and I am loving most of the lps I continue to buy. I really believe it has much to do with my Rock 7.

Happy Listening!

@bdp24: Do you have numbers? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's far closer to 'all' than to 'none' (or even 'some').

I buy only vinyl and quite a bit from various sources.

I say return it. (I know if the lp suffers from a poor recording or pressing issue, it isn’t the vendors fault....it isn't the buyer's either.) Returning is the only way any vendor will have a reason to improve service. I’ve had several poor Amazon experiences with the lps not being packaged properly. I’ll have to say that recently, I’ve had very good experiences. ( Could it be because of my sending the poorly packaged lps back with detailed notes?) You only have your time to lose.

I just received my copy of Peter Gabriel "Passion" 45rpm/half speed from Amazon. It was vacuumed sealed/shrink-wrapped on a separate piece of thick cardboard that was the (proper size to prevent shifting) inside of a larger box. I’m very hopeful!

Just played this last night. The Lion’s Roar by First Aid Kit is a digital recording and sounds pretty good on CD (evidently a studio multi-track recording). But it sounds a lot better on vinyl. More detail, air and nuance. More emotion and therefore more satisfying.  

"all (?) modern source material being digitally recorded/mastered". The "(?)" is well-deserved. Who says "all" modern source material is digitally recorded/mastered?

I can't get past the thought that with all(?) modern source material being digitally recorded/mastered, a record factory and turntable make one heck of a clunky DAC.

I buy a lot of vinyl, mostly used but some new and new reissues of old stuff. Grading inflation is pretty bad- it’s almost luck of the draw. There are a few places that are almost unimpeachable, but you pay top dollar for their copies and if it is a rare record, it’s crazy money. When I go to shows or bin dive at a store, I do my best to visually evaluate, and cleaning helps, but if the record is damaged, there isn’t much you can do.
I’ve certainly had my share of new records that were horribly made- I’m not buying audiophile stuff for the most part. Many of the records i’ve been buying lately are EU sourced and come from digital files- they are reissues of old psych/prog/proto metal- the quality has generally been good, and the sonics are better than you’d expect. I’ve also had my share of bad sounding all analog records over the years too.
I try to work with trusted vendors- but even then, some stuff slips though. Thankfully, i haven’t had much issue with returns, though those are a PITA. I hear you- but I don’t think it is a new issue or worse (except for the grade inflation and pricing, particularly on sought after old pressings). If it is a 6 dollar record, I’ll just carry on- I’ve been down the road of multiple copies, even of expensive records, before I get a keeper.
I understand the frustration. I’m too invested to quit vinyl, but have started looking at digital options for a various of reasons, not the least being price of some old records.

I was buying new vinyl when I got back into listening to records again. I recently started buying used vinyl and can say I have better luck with used vinyl in regards to sound quality. I thought the newly pressed 180g and 200g would sound better. Some new vinyl sounds good but I can say the used vinyl I have been buying seems to just sound right to me. 

New vinyl probably suffers from various effects, some mentioned already. LPs from the advent of RIAA-curved hi-fis in the mid 50s were made of good vinyl and recorded/pressed by companies that had great experience. Things got better all the way into the early 70s, by which time vinyl began to suffer in quality due to the ’energy crisis’ and bad economy. Tape cassettes had begun to offer viable competition after Dolby (and early DBX) became available, which took more attention off of vinyl. CDs marked the end of the trail. Newbies will have their teething problems. Even CD reissues have been panned, but it has nothing to do with the medium, rather poor remastering techniques. The guys who mastered the RCA Red Seal LPs of the 50s/60s were gone and with them their expertise. This is probably the real reason for poor new pressings.

I now use nothing but digital source material. I have ordered expensive good-quality used vinyl to get precious (to me) recordings from the 50s unavailable elsewhere during the 90s. Recently I finally found what I sought on youtube. Despite its non-optimal digital format it sounds worlds better than the recording I had purchased. True whether played through my all-analog home system (made 30 years ago) via my laptop and a DAC or streamed directly through my new all-digital system (up to the power amps which, using ’class T’ Tripathi amp chips, have also been misrepresented as ’digital’ due to their switching structure) and I have no further use for even reel tapes with DBX I NR, let alone vinyl.

It has been mentioned on the thread that new digitally recorded masters pose no detriment to quality when pressed into vinyl, and I'm sure that's true. The question becomes then, why then introduce all the added processing of pressing into vinyl and replaying on a mechanical device (which mandates further analog processing)? The digital signal path in the home is far more flexible and accurate than stacking analog (or even digital) boxes with patch cords. It can all be done in software, which is why I use 2 fast computers as my entire hi-fi hardware ensemble (minus, again, the power amps and speakers of course). As an added attraction, they run at 3.2Ghz, are quad-cores and cost me $160 each refurbished. All filtering (including crossovers) is linear-phase. And I'm certain the results are superior to vinyl/analog since I've bought/built and heard both. And it's only getting better. This is where development is now concentrated.

No romance sorry to hear about your recent experiences. I also had a bad run with new vinyl that really discouraged me. Both the music quality and pressings were a real turn off. But a friend turned me on to a couple reissues and current new releases that got me excited and since I've had a very nice current run on new records (re-issues and current releases). This is in large part records bought from Barnes and Noble and Amazon. Also a somewhat recent thread about a HiFi News review of something like 50 albums to give your system a workout was a real boon turning me on tinmusic I hadn't heard of and pushing me to get a few things I'd been on the fence about. I also hit my local record store and grab the jazz reissues that are coming out and overall good some ok. One example was Joe Henderson Elements and it's very good. Anyway keep the faith is what I'm trying to say.