Electrostats Shootout at 4000 Corral

from the latest electrostat technology the gunslingers are from kansas the legendary MARTIN LOGAN with the ASSENT($4000) from utah SOUND LABS with their handsome DYNOSTAT($3900) and from georgia INNERSOUND with EROS PASSIVE($4000) to make this as fair as possibile KRELL 300i amp($3000 new $1200 used) and for CDP hmmm take the NAD C540($600 NEW) i would prefer GASMAN'S recommendation the powerful INNERSOUND ESL amp($3000 new) gives 300 watts into 8 ohms 600 into 4 and 1000 into 2. for cdp i would prefer the new GRANITE 657 TUBE CDP($2500). i have seen MARTIN LOGAN shoot, BEAUTIFUL! no dealers in new orleans for INNERSOUND or SOUND LABS , guess have to drive to houston or atlanta to hear these guys. you know it seems the shootout is not between these 3, its more like these 3 against the HUNDREDS of box LOUDspeakers(WITH THE WILSONS leading the pack and the MAGEPLANNARS are in the pack as well. sorry maggie devotes i'VE HEARD THE MAGGIE 1.6 with CALIFORNIA LABS CDP and a NAD amp as well with a ROGUE amp ,not impressed. so its a question of which of the 3 electrostat can knock off the most boxed LOUD speakers. tweekerman
Actually, there is a soundlab dealer in New Orleans.His name is Duke and his store is called Audio Kinesis. They also carry rhe innersound amps but not the speakers.
I used to have a Krell amp for my extensively modified Martin Logan reQuest, but sold it to purchase an Inner Sound amp, the ESL which is the smallest. In every category the Inner Sound completly ran all over the Krell, no contest. I am not saying this amp is the greatest thing on the planet but it certainly performs way way beyond its price point. The 300i would be a joke by comparison.
Speaking of jokes, and I think this opening post IS one, to judge Magneplanar with a NAD amp make me laugh.

BTW, it's AsCent and I don't think it's legendary just yet. It's also DynAstat. And, don't come to Houston for Innersound or SoundLab 'cause you ain't gonna' find it here.

Otherwise, I'm on YOUR side. Give me a panel speaker everytime.
I second Franks suggestion to check with Duke at AudioKinesis. One of the nicest, no pressure, no hype, etc... kind of guys that you can deal with. Sean
ROUTLAW it was two weeks ago when i had my first electrostat experience , blown over! the MARTIN LOGANS ASSENT & AEON were driven by KRELL 300I. your comment proves my theory, you can take a ok amp (even a "JOKE" amp) but you can't take a top of line ACCUPHASE CDP + top of line MONOBLOCKS (take your pick, spend up to say ...$30000!) and get phenomonal sound. except for the fact that electrostates are addicted to the juice and you have to spend atleast $4000 (ML's AEON for $3000 sounded pretty good,even great compared to any LOUD..speaker say up to $10000! even their little SCENARIO($2000) can out perform in every aspect any LOUD...speaker up to $3000. GASMAN seems to say that this INNERSOUND (which model?)is the one. check out their KILLOWATT 1000WATTS!! into 8 2000WATTS!!!!into 4 KING KONG is alive and well! i would like to take MARTIN LOGAN's model say, the PRODIGY, and let KRELL's best to offer battle with this INNERSOUND KILL-O- MONSTER. one bloody battle indeed.
yea travis you are right maggies out perform boxes in most areas.( mistake). i agree NAD could probably make the 3 electrostates sound just ok. thats why i chose KRELL ,a basic power source , but according to ROUTLAW substandard. thats a big problem with comparing these 3. even if there were 3 dealers here that sold AsCent DynAstat EROS each would have different equipment.
i agree with sean . go see duke, he is a great guy. the labs are my choice. i heard the innersounds and liked them but i think the labs are better. i like the look of the logans but they are to lean. forget about ss with stats. run some decent tubes and the heavens will open up.
kirt what do you mean by too lean? i guess if i hear labs and innersound i'll know. you say to forget ss ,gasman says innersound's els amp($3000) is THE amp? to throw a twist in take the upgraded INNERSOUND EROS MK11($6000), both speaker and electronics reworked with a 600rms amp. kirt did you hear eros or erosmk11?

I have heard the DynAstats and don't think they are in the same ballpark with the Eros Mk-II, which I own. Certainly, the InnerSounds are more efficient and robust than the Sound Labs and will play cleanly at much higher output levels.

As to your comments about pairing tubes with electrostats, this is a synergistic match in some cases because most tube amps that use an output transformer roll off the high frequencies into low impedance loads that many stats present.

I have gotten excellent results using high-powered solid state amplifiers, like the InnerSound ESL and Monarchy Audio SE-100s as well as Monarchy's hybrid SE-160 (tube input/MOSFET output) monoblocks. You can also employ a digital processor with solid-state amps, such as the Behringer 8024 or any of the current (but more expensive) models from TacT, to take full advantage of solid-state's more uniform power delivery at the frequency extremes, thus having your cake and eating it too! I have the Behringer in my system at the moment and decreasing the output slightly from the upper midrange through the lower treble works quite well.

I had two good friends over today to hear the system and I played them a few tracks off of Fleetwood Mac's "The Dance" live CD. They were just floored at the way the Eros unraveled that very complex recording, reproducing Mac along with the USC Marching Band. The immensity of the sound field, incredible dynamics, and ability to follow individual instrumental passages with the USC band's blaring accompanyment was quite a visceral, realistic, and moving experience.

My two friends, both confirmed analog & tube enthusiasts, are now contemplating a foray into digital after hearing how impressive and natural an all-digital, solid-state system can sound. To be fair, I should mention that my Eros Mk-II is the more expensive active, bi-amped model and I have not heard the passive version.
Regarding my previous post, to those of you who think it's somehow unfair to use affordable digital processing to achieve excellent sonic results, all I can say is "Welcome to the 21st Century!"

Teekerman, as a former owner of the original Eros and current owner of the Mk-II, I can tell you that the sonic differences between the two versions are not immense by any stretch. Owners of the original Eros may not need to run out and upgrade.

The new version offers a built-in remote controlled preamp section (only one input though) which allows you to boost the low bass more than the original, which is probably the biggest difference. But it's not night and day, and if you already own a dedicated subwoofer system then the remote control may be all you are gaining. The jury is still out on whether the new crossover amp is ultimately as transparent as the original unit, and since the present version has just been updated I'll need to wait until I hear the latest version before I can offer an informed opinion on that. I do know that the new crossover amp will offer plug-in crossover modules to facilitate its use with any present, active InnerSound speaker system and those that may be introduced in the future.

I am interested in getting a pair of ML Aeons myself but I am still worried that with certain recordings the soundstage will collapse to the floor where the woofer is. At least that's what I heard with the Aerius. The only other manufacturer which tries to eliminate this problem is Final which mount their woofer firing up.

Does anybody know if they have solved this problem with the smaller hybrid electrostats. I also heard the Soundlab Quantum do the collapsing soundstage thing.
Hey, Kw6, collapsing soundstage, that's a new one on me. I don't think that particular phenomenon is due to the design of the woofer enclosure as you've suggested, but may be more related to the the amplifier not being able to supply adequate power into the speaker's demanding load. I have heard the Aerius i and did not hear that particular effect. Methinks you are shooting the messenger. :)
Kw6, that´s exactly what I didn´t like with my SL-3´s and reQuests. I switched to the Maggie 3.6´s, no lows-way-down-here and highs-way-up-there sound. I´m very curious to hear the full range SL´s though. Happy listening.
Be careful Tweekerman if you go see Duke - the full range Soundlabs will blow you away and get you reaching deeper into your pocket - you will not be satisfied with the Dynastats. Not too many speakers bring it like the full range Soundlab including the elegant CLS or the Quad 989. If you have the room for the A or M series you need not search any longer. I wish I had the room for them.
Hasse, sorry if I come off as sort of an evangelist for the Eros, but I know from personal experience that the Eros Mk-II will deliver more extended and dynamic bass than the Maggie 3.6 and clean, very articulate highs out past the upper limits of the audible range without losing its composure -- as long as the amp can supply adequate power without clipping. The Eros will also play much louder than the 3.6 without self-destructing or blowing fuses.

I think the full-range Sound Labs are excellent speakers, but are very large, expensive, and are even more demanding of their amplification than the Eros.
Ljgj now we are talking something altogether new. if one goes to innersound web page there is only a choice between the old eros and the upgraded eros mk11. if one goes to soundlabs web you will find spectular electrostats the very expensive A and the expensive M series. but dynastat is all i can barely afford (in debt as opposed to bankrupt). so this brings us to this conclusion, the dynostats are $4000 and the cls11z are $4000, which to go with? GASMAN casts his vote for innersound's eros as a total package but stated in a nice letter that his personal favorite is the cls11z. GASMAN states "you will not hear what this speaker (cls11z) can really do unless you use the innersound esl amp". PLATO as well casts his vote for the eros mk11, however he likes the monarchy se-100 delux over the innersound " by a small margin". PLATO also said to make sure its the upgraded with the hitachi mosfet. remember the full range soundlabs are twice the price as the cls11z and old eros. i guess the only way to solve this is to go listen to the dynostats today. i will have to locate a dealer for the eros and the elusive cls11z (new orleans dealer and the birmingham dealer says special order only) so my question to you is would the cls11z($4000) with a (used) rel storm 111($500) sub out perform the dynostats($4000) as well as the up graded eros mk11($6000)?
PLATO i just read your note to Hasse i think you answered my question sound labs dynostat vs. eros. but what about eros mk11($6000) vs. cls11z($4000)+rel storm111 sub ($1000)?
these retail for $4600 ($3800 if ya can install the drivers yourself). they're hybrid ribbons, w/carbon-fibre woofers. they just won best sound of show at the recent ces. many folks have compared then favorably w/the ultra-spendy soundlabs, & the m-l prodigy's... they're on my short-list of speakers to audition...

doug s.

Hey,I own Soundlab Ultimate II's and live near New Orleans.You gotta go see Duke at Audiokinesis,he's the man.504.866.1730.He's extremely knowledgeable about audio and Soundlab's.Also,he's a audio club president/vice president or something of that nature,locally.Ask him about the club.I would seek him out for anything in audio if he carries it.No pressure has ever been placed on me to purchase anything for him.Go see him you'll have a blast!
BTW,my Soundlabs have found permanence in my home.Never have I had such glorious music before these were purchased. Remember mating Soundlabs with the "right" amp,preamp and cables pays big dividends.I have had my Ultimate II's for four years and "finally" I'm close to saying it can't get much better than this.I listen now without being critical.I have "arrived". I used to hear people talk about "musicians in the room" with their systems.They also show up in my listening room now.As you can see when you mention Soundlab,I get excited.!Also,consult Albert Porter about Soundlabs.You will probably see him appear in this thread eventually.I don't give out email addresses you must talk to him.

Tweekerman, to answer your question, I would take the Eros Mk-II over the CLS IIz and the REL Storm combo (to me that's not even a close call). As transparent as the CLS IIz may be, the Eros is equally adept. And I have never heard the CLS throw the kind of huge, open soundfield that the Eros can easily manage. Nor can it match The Eros' dynamic capability or maximum output level. Plus if you get the Eros II, you may find that you don't even need a subwoofer. And you can always add a great subwoofer down the road if you think you are missing much. Actually, Roger Sanders does not recommend a subwoofer for use with the Eros unless it is a very high quality sub crossed very low. With the CLS you will almost certainly need the woofer right off the bat.

BTW, for those who are curious, Roger Sanders is not resting on his laurels. He is working on an even larger electrostatic system, the Ethos, although that system may not be a reality in the near term. He has also told me of some tube amplifiers he is developing, including a direct-drive OTL model to drive his ESL panels, which may be introduced sometime later this year.

InnerSound appears to be a proactive company, that is not about to become complacent in the light of the good press it has received thus far. I think this kind of progressive approach is key to continuing success in the long term.
Soundlab for sure if its got to be electrostat, the Maggies can sound really nice as well but differ from the electrostatic sound to an extent. You will hear the associated equipments flaws in any revealing, neutral speaker like Maggies or good electrostats. The 1.6qr can sound excellent with the proper gear behind them, I'd be scared to hear 1.6's with substandard associated equipment. Most dynamic planars and electrostats expose the good and the bad in the chain, so be prepared for not so impressive sound with the wrong associated equipment, wrong room and wrong placement with panels.
I think there is great value for the money with used elecrostats like Soundlab as most owners take excellent care of them, they are usually kept safe from danger in a friendly environment and are seldom moved. For bass you need big electrostats to produce low frequencies; most agree that Soundlab has done its homework to ensure that this has been accomplished. The hybrids I have heard never seem to integrate as well as full-range electrostats, theres no way I would throw a sub in the system with the Soundlabs. Well maybe 2 more SL's used as bass panels :)

Good luck,
Hi Plato, Unfortunately I haven´t heard the Innersounds so I can´t comment on the Eros. I´m sure they´re sounding great but I´m not so sure they would pass the WAF test and so far I´m very happy with my musical Magnepans.
Which full range ´stats in the SL line have you heard? I don´t think I have the space to house them but I´m curious to know how they compare to other panels.
Tweekerman, I have heard all the speakers you mention and I must agree with Plato -- the EROS, IMHO are in another league (for MY taste and MY preferences in MY room). I am not here to brag about my system , tell you what IS or IS not the "best" of anything or to say that anyone choosing the MLs or Dyna's is wrong.

Being single with no children, (and due to the prices I get on gear) has allowed me to put together a fairly high level of electronics. Right now I have all Lamm electronics (M1.1 amps, L2 Reference Line stage and LP2 phono stage), Sonic Frontiers T3/P3 (transport and DAC), VPI TNT-V with JMW 12.5 arm & Van den Hul Colibri with Valhalla and Silversmith cabling (along with a plethora of isolation devices, PCs and an Audio Magic Stealth and PP300). I mention this because many people think that I should have a set of $15,000-$30,000 speakers to match the electronics -- but I ended up with the EROS. I sold a $10,000 pair of highly respected full range dynamic speakers (Hales T-8s) after hearing what these EROS did in my system.

The EROS have as big of a soundstage as my T-8s but have much better midrange, better focus, tremendous speed and, surprisingly enough, excellent bass from the transmission line woofer (which I believe is the most seamless integration of a hybrid design I have ever heard). Now to be fair, I did add two REL Stentor III sub-bass systems to the EROS. I did NOT do this because I thought the EROS didn't have sufficient bass, but did so after a very impressive demo by Allan Haggar of Sumiko (REL importer)of a what the REL Stentor III did for FULL range speakers. Mine are crossed over way down at 23hz.

The EROS has much more of a "reach out and touch the performer" feel than any other speaker I have had. I also have heard some of the Soundlabs recently and they are wonderful at many things. In Novemeber, I heard a set of Soundlab M-1s with VERY good electronics and cables and, with female vocals and acoustic music, they were simply breathtaking! But, these are not only $13,000 speakers, but on the punchy, hard driving, 70's soul and jazz/funk I love to listen too (e.g., Tower of Power), they sounded, to my ears, horrible. They could not play at louder spl levels and the band had NO punch - the bass was overbloated and the horn section sounded like they were 500 feet away and weak. I have NO such problem with the EROS at all -- they can play the acoustic music with finese and detail and yet get up and boogie with the punchy stuff. Finally, the clarity and lack of congestion and smearing with the EROS is amazing.

Last Friday, Allan Haggar of Sumiko came to my home to help me set-up my second REL. He has heard many systems and commented on how he had never liked MLs but could not believe how dynamic and yet non-fatiguing the EROS were. But what really struck him (he is a classically trained musician) was how the large scale classical and his favorite HUGE scale organ CDs had no congealing, smearing or compression. He said he heard details he's never heard before from his reference discs -- (to be fair, since I know my system, the Valhallas also contributed to this).

Downside of the EROS? Well, first of all, VERY small sweet spot. The panels being flat and not curved like the MLs, give up the wider disperion that MLs have but, IMHO, make up for this smaller sweet spot with much better sonics. If you want to listen while walking around the room or with three other people - fahget abodit, unless they are in your lap! :-) Second, they need power, notwithstanding their rating (although not as much as say a Soundlab M or A series).

I also agree with Plato on the MK-I vs. the MK-II (I should point out that I have the MK-II panels and both the MK-I and MK-II bass amp/x-over units). I, personally, like the MK-I amp a litle better but it's a close call and subject to further auditioning (Roger Sanders will disagree I'm sure). All in all, my opinion is that the EROS should NOT compared to the Dynas or Ascents, neither of which in my system are in even the EROS league. I believe the better comarison for the $6,000 EROS is with the much more expensive SLs or MLs.

Finally, they don't come any better than Roger Sanders at Innersound - class act, ALWAYS willing to help even if it doesn't produce profit to him and always accesible.
hey Chuckie so you vote big for sound lab. plato votes big on eros passive but prefers eros active. gasman says cls11z gets his top vote and eros gets a close second. called a dealer for eros mk11 and he said all martin logan owners are trading up to his eros. i guess all are about equally spectatular speakers. we can all agree to this and ...and you say the musicians were ACTUALLY there in your room!!! so then sound labs webpage tells the truth "THE FINEST IN ELECTROSTATIC TECHNOLOGY" ... but i have to confess some bills rolled in today (car repairs etc.) looks like i'll have to settle for the little ISIS from innersound ($2600 or so says a dealer) or the martin logan AEON ($3000) but then with either of these little electros i can get my pathos classic one which should have just enough power, but according to 2 dealers "the sweetest in power". thanks everyone for the tech info. from what Chuckie says seems thats as close to heaven as you get. tweekerman
Ask the Eros dealer how much he will sell you a pair of the traded in ML's - bet he does not have any. All the speakers you are looking at are pretty good and should serve you well.
well i've heard enough seems like the choice would be the same as a choice between a beautiful blond, brunette, or redhead.
i've made some calls around the country, seems the eros out performs the ml line in same price range. soundlab's dynastat needs to go back to drawing board but their m3($7300) to their a1 ($16700) takes prize as best speaker in the universe. note: i came across a old post where someone called Mr.Roger Sanders and asked which amp for isis , he told them seems all pretty much the same on a equal footing. some dealer in california said exactly the same thing. hmmm interesting... said goes for cables as well. i always believed that about speaker wire but thought i was wrong when i saw all these beautiful thick cables. interesting...says he has done many blindfolded tests and no one gets it right between $50 cables and $1000 cables... interesting... very...says speakers makes all the difference. pretty much my ideas, so i chose krell and nad cdp, just any old amp will do as well as any old cdp. this and 50 cents won't buy you a cup of coffee .
Well just buy the Bose 901's and be popular with the vast majority of the universe who thinks they are by far the best.
Tweekerman, any reason to not consider the larger Soundlab speakers used? Even the new Millennium 3 could possibly be affordable with dealer discount.

I agree with those who suggest that the Dynastat is not a particularly strong speaker. I have never heard an electrostatic hybrid sound correct, particularly against a full range model. It may surprise you to know that the larger Soundlab speakers are more efficient, due to the radiating area. I have gotten consistent 90 DB plus in my large sound room with a 21 watt SET driving Soundlab Ultimate Ones. More power is certainly preferred, but I think this makes the point about size and design being important.
Just kidding up there - its like you sort of said awhile back you are not picking a wife just a girlfriend and sooner or later you will be bored with her and move on to something better - enjoy the MUSIC!!!!
I heard the Innersound speakers and amps at CES this year...........One of the best sounds at the show. Giving alot of thought to becoming a Innersound dealer. Great sounding products.
HELLO Fmpnd BRAVO your experience of these magical mk11 or mk1 has the most convincing testamony. so it seems your post can bring this thread to a close. Gasman and Plato both back up your experience. the description of your system sounds looks like you,ve done your homework ,i am going to take a look at the equipment you mention. its interesting martinlogan has like 8 models ,and sound lab has like 8 models innersound has 2 or 3 ,martin logan goes to $80000 sl's goes up to like $20000, big is not always better in fact almost never not! TO: all the martin logan devotees and the lovers of sound labs please refer all your protests to Gasman, Plato, and most of all to Fmpnd. as far as i'm concerned the shootout is over... lets go to the saloon.. drinks are on me.
First off, thank you to Sean and Chuckie for your kind words. Whadda ya think guys - do I owe them a nice big discount next go-round, or what??

I'd have to agree with Plato that overall the InnerSound Eros outperforms the stock Dynastat. The bass section of the Dynastat - in particular the cabinet itself - is in my opinion the weak link. I do a few tweaks that help out a bit, but that transmission line bass of the Eros is superb.

Getting the Dynastats set up right is much more difficult and involving than setting up conventional speakers or full-range electrostats. This is true of any electrostatic/dynamic hybrid. The bias control, brilliance control, and bass level control all have to be set right for your listening position (and your taste) in your room.

I would say the Eros is dangerous competition for the much more expensive Martin Prodigy. I confess, however, that I do like the wide radiation pattern of the Sound Lab speakers. I've made a few suggestions to Sound Lab regarding an improved bass section for the Dynastat, but a major redesign would probably push the price up significantly.

Amplifier matching is critical with the big full-range Sound Labs. The best bang-for-the-buck amps I have found so far are the InnerSound amps, which I sell (I don't sell their speakers, at least not yet).

I've encountered a couple of setups where the big Sound Labs were bloated in the bass. By far the worst was at 2002 CES, where the room's walls were so flimsy you could put your hand on the walls and feel them vibrating. That room was hopeless. In other rooms, I've found that moving the listening position helped a great deal.

One of my customers plays violin in a symphony orchestra. His previous speaker was a highly customized pair of Quad 57's, which he said were the only speaker he'd heard get violin right. When he listened to the big Sound Labs, he told me that not only did they get the violin right, but also cello and string bass, which was a first in his experience. Another one of my customers is a drummer, who told me the big Sound Labs have the best bottom-end definition of any speaker she's heard. Still another customer preferred the bottom end of the Sound Labs to that of his $40,000 Genesis system with something like sixteen servo-controlled woofers. I make mention of all this to point out that, when set up right (and assuming the room acoustic gods haven't cursed you), the big Sound Labs do some magical things in the bottom octave or two.

That being said, the dynamic range of the Eros is indeed greater than that of the big Sound Labs (unless you have really humongous amplifiers). Personally I prefer the package of attributes the big Sound Labs offer, but I respect the Eros a great deal.

Best wishes to you in your quest, Tweekerman!
Albert, you have to remember that the newer Eros are something like 96 db's at one watt !!! With 21 watts of tube power, they would ROAR. There are no doubts that the Innersound's ARE the king of E-stat dynamics from that point of view. Whether or not the dynamic woofer and panels blend well together is a personal decision. I've never heard them first hand, so i can't say either way. Sean
I have not heard the Eros, which Sean has mentioned, but otherwise my experience is the same as Albert's, that getting the sound to blend properly with hybrid ESLs is a very tricky business indeed and rarely satisfying. Mating the Quad 63 with a Gradient sub was nice, after some tweaking of the Gradient's X-over, but the the only full range ESL's which I found really convincing were the big Sound Labs. The Quad 989 only second here to my ears. If I were in your shoes I would take both Sean's and Albert's advice and listen to the Eros and hunt for a good used big Sound Lab. Cheers,
you may be making a big mistake if you fail to check out the vmps rm-40 ribbon loudspeakers. as said before, they have been compared favorably to speakers costing more than three times their price. specifically the m-l prodigy & soundlab a1.

a similar sound, that may even work better in smaller rooms, for even less money, can be found in the vmps rm1 or rm2.

as it seems you are so intent on others' opinions, & that winning the best sound of the show at the 2002 ces isn't enough, go to harmonicdiscord.com & check out owners' comments on the vmps forum there. also, you'll find that brian cheney, vmps' owner, is very active & helpful.


doug s.

hey Sedond i will look into this line ,but honestly i listen to 95% classical music and the eros may be the perfect speaker for bass plucking and drum banging (jazz R&B rock etc.) but i have a hunch that my choice now is between the affordable SL's M3($3900) and ML's CLS11Z($4000) i prefer synergistic sound as opposed to the amp driven bass sound in the eros, and the eros have a tiny sweet spot , not so with SL's with the CLS i do not know. these pannels should render the best overall symphonic sound. the SL's have a frequency "control" panel (red flag goes up) and "optional" toroidal audio transformer (red flag goes up) ,and the CLS is the more handsome of the two (girl friendly) i'll just have to hear them.
hi tweek,

all i can add is this - if the ml cls' went louder than 93db (which they won't do, even when crossed over to subs at as high as 100hz), i would have a pair in my house right now. absolutely one of the best sounds i've ever heard - for small acoustical music. if all of the classical music you listen to is quartets, chamber music, etc., then you'll be fine. otherwise, i think not. my opinion, of course! ;~)

not much info/foto's on vmps' latest iterations of their rm1 & rm2 (retail $1600 & $2400, plus options); & the new rm40 has even less - brian needs to update his website. go to the harmonicdiscord site, &/or email brian directly. (vmpsaudio.com) here's a foto of the rm40, from the '02 ces:



doug s.

Tweek, there's a SL Ultimate 2 being offered on Audiogon for a little under 5000 bucks with all the latest frillings. Sounds very interesting..... Cheers
You know Tweekerman I am a big fan of Electrostats because they do a lot of nice things for music listening and I back that up by having owned the original Aerius that are still in my office - the Quest Z's - the Quad 989 which I traded to a New Orleans guy for the ML Odyssey which he bought from Jay in Metairie - (I let them go because my wife really hated their look in our room) - I really didn't think about letting go of the ML's until I recently heard the VMPS RM 40.. It is the best boxtype speaker I have heard in a long time and outdoes or matches our Stats in many areas and at 4600 retail - no one is even close in the dynamic speaker department. A friend of mine in Texas owns a pair. A friend also owns the CLS and I love the classical music that comes out of those through the Innersound amp - I have never seen a pair at Jay's place to listen to in a showroom - when you listen to the music that comes from them you never think - it needs a sub. By the way it's time for you to make up your mind and take the step because we are exhausted for you.
Sedond seems martin logan sees the impracticality of their CLS11Z about to drop the model. which leaves me with the sound lab millenium-3 as the choice over the eros mk11 mainly because 95% of the music i listen to is classical if it was the other way around 95% r&b jazz rock then the eros mk11 is the way to go. just as of interest Tireguy is helping me put together a virtual system , playboys paradise i had chose the accuphase dp75v($11000!!) , tireguys response was "and money spent on the dp-75 could have been saved with an audio aero capitole getting VERY similar results, so close in fact i wish i had a capitole over my accuphase gear(at the same savings i bought the accuphase for!)" !!! i mean i always thought the more expensive the more the better. i mean ACCUPHASE!!! thanks for the tip Detlof , i think allitle too large for my room.
I'm a newbie to the entry level high end having recently purchased the ML Aerius i's. After a long (and still incomplete) struggle to place them correctly I realized that an 11 year old Denon integrated amp wasn't cutting it. So here comes the Anthem AVM2 pre and MCA5 amp. HT going on here as well. Huge difference in openess and soundstage depth and better highs. A little more sparkle. The beauty of the ML's is that that they fill the house with music w/o being married to the couch or a narrow sweet spot to enjoy them for casual listening. A "collapsing soundstage" to me means it's a crappy recording. ML's are placement sensitive for serious listening but the sweet spot is at least three people wide....:-)

BTW has anyone heard ML's new sub?
Ljgj i am new in this audio realm so be patient , read my last post. hopefully the new pathos amp(120watts) due out in may will marry well with the sound labs M3.regards
Gasman and Plato just sent emails says Gasman "eros produce crisp sound...BUT 'beam' to a single seat" says Plato "M-3 needs GOBS of power to make them sing , but sound INCREDIBLE"..."I feel the EROS ARE the best on 'synergistic symphonic dynamic' sound" ... so disreguard previous post due to further credible witnesses. if anyone follows all the posts, seems INNERSOUND's EROS MK11 is as close as i'm going to get to 'dynamic synergistic symphonic sound'... i guess you are wondering how i came up with this imaginary phrase. my old Philips Dynamic 475 actually has a clear bubble tweeter its a mini electrostat, never could figure out why it produced mid+highs like no other tweeter when i bought them in 1982 its that quality of sound i was after (its a 2 way 6 in woofer, bass ok) puts b&w tweeter to shame. thanks for everone's interest tweekerman
Ljgj these aren't the ones that were for sale in the times picayune about 2 months ago, and i called, but this was before i ever knew what a electrostat was. NOW i know ,but honestly they are too big , need too much juice and i'm after the eros mk11. thanks anyway...by the way how much?
Thank god the CLSIIZ is going away, a true amplifier nightmare.

So you like classical music. What ARE you going to do about low bass, no, not THAT low bass, the low bass below 30HZ which would include Mahler, Rachmaninoff, Resphigi, any organ music with 16' and 32' pipes? You think this EROS can reproduce that? Maybe, but be careful, and be prepared to go to war over sub-woofers.
Travis have you heard the Quad 988($5000) or the expensive 989($9000) as compared to the eros . Plato emailed to say ""i guess great dynamic capibilities does not rate as highly on your own list of priorities" nicely said.(talking about that cabinet speakers vs. esl) so yea i can make the sacrifice on low end for what i get in mids and highs. can't touch the 989 even though it has the bass. Plato as well said to "stay away from the ML cls11z".i guess what i need to know as well is if the Innersound's are about the same efficiency as the Quad's988?
tweek, ya say:

"...so yea i can make the sacrifice on low end for what i get in mids and highs..."

no sacrifices required - repeat after me: vmps rm40... vmps rm40... vmps rm40... ;~)

doug s.