Has anyone made the jump to $uper High end and were disappointed?

@folkfreak

"So what does this mean? It means that "good sound" is an intensely personal affair, and that also it’s likely that we all tune our ears to appreciate a certain acoustic aesthetic. Think about the times when you’ve made a change and thought at first "I hate it" but once you listen through the removal of some prior tonal or temporal distortion you realize that the thing you’re missing is just a coloration."

I must admit, even though it could conceivably be considered a rationale for the slippery slope (which I've always had to fight to try to stave off), I couldn't have said it better! Another great point!

@Wolf, great points! That's probably the best answer to my post above, since I knew I was kinda stuck not being able to resolve for everyone the problem as I see it, but that does it well enough. 

"If it sounds great, it's great...period". I like that line.

When HiFi gear begin to cost in silly money, I lose interest in them and their reviews.  There is a simple reason if something like the 'Naim Statement' a pre and poweramp which costs at least £100,000.00 then in my mind if its not excellent its a failure.  So the reviews will be predictably glowing about the equipment, and so they should.  You will most probably read  silly statements like 'oh my god its like the quartet was playing in the same room!'  For the price of the equipment the quartet should be sitting on your lap!  However when you get serious equipment doing basic good  sonic hifi above its budget like the active ATC SCM19A or SCM40A then things for me get very interesting indeed because maybe in my life time the products are still reachable (perhaps a bank job here or there!)

Very interesting thread.  Value is so subjective, especially in this "sport" we've all chosen to indulge in.  And as stated, there are others that may be similar (cars, watches, homes, hell...friends and significant others if you really want to go there).

I love my two sets of $15-20K 845 SET monos and 300B PSET monos.  I also have a pre-amp in that price range.  I now wouldn't consider living in my audio world without some system at that level...it has absolutely been worth that investment for me, certainly compared to stuff costing half of those prices (which were no slouches). 

Would going up 50% in price, or doubling it, or more, make a valued difference?  I, for one, would love to hear $40-50K amps and pre-amps and speakers in a well-matched system in my home, and see how much more emotion they might deliver.  Of course it's incremental with diminishing marginal returns.  At some point you will determine it's not worth it, like in everything.  At some point there will reach a real limit, and you may even go backwards in actual performance.  I don't know if I would justify going to that level, but I'd sure like to know what's possible.

I waited 22 years to buy a Porsche from the first time I went to look at one and considered buying it until the day I drove one home.  I don't regret finally doing it one second any day of the week.  I wish I hadn't waited so long.  Worth it?  That question can only be answered by you, obviously.  Waiting that long also let me go big, which I did.  Also no regrets there.

I do like the OP's question, although it does appear that the audience to answer is small as others have stated.

Nope if gears are chosen for SQ and not price, aesthetics ... 

Law of diminishing returns doesn't exist in my world.  If you want something SPECIAL,  it will reflect in price too.  IE:  it takes more engineering and cost to build a car with 170 mph than 100 mph top speed so price for a Porsche will exceed a Honda exponentially! 

The higher the price, the higher the expectation.

+1 Wolf an everything you said cars and audio both! My used 2003 VW Passat is the single best purchase I've ever made and boutique shops run by enthusiasts make it cheap and easy to maintain. Similarly well selected and matched components will produce good sound at a variety of price points low and high.

I bought a used low mileage BMW for less than what a new Toyota costs because I'm not an idiot and I like great cars, and my el-cheapo E90 is killer (still drive it every day, and the cost to maintain it is held down by avoiding dealerships and supporting one of the many "boutique" BMW shops). I also know sound, and have heard plenty of extreme high end systems that sound amazing, as does my well sorted pile of relatively inexpensive gear. Smug comments regarding vague absolutes such as having to spend large for true high end are silly, and only expose how lazy and inexperienced people often are. If it sounds great, it's great…period.

For most of us, I think it may take a good 2 or 3 decades of familiarizing yourself with the market in this hobby to get to a reliably good enough level of experience with which you can feel good about your chances of success at downsizing and getting away with it. It takes that long for most of us to become familiar with the width and depth of the market and it may not come at all unless you’ve made a number of purchases, for both good And ill, and have lived with the results for a long enough while.

But, just remember: having gone down the slippery slope, every time some audiophile proclaims their rallying cry in print that the paying of the exorbitant prices is ’unquestionably’ the only way to go, there’s another manufacturer that says to themselves: "See that? More proof that if I introduce a new product to the market at a temptingly competitive price that I know I can still make a profit at, then I know it won’t be taken seriously by anyone unless I price it 2-4 time higher". This is how the industry is pricing itself out of existence.

Of course, the original problem was created by the makers, pressuring us whenever possible in subtle and in not-so-subtle ways to spend more than last time. But, it’s a runaway train and about everybody is at fault.
I would suppose the only sane thing to do for both our own And the hobby’s sake Is to learn how to downsize from the top...or maybe better yet, to finally put in the time it takes to learn how to never actually go down the all-out-assault path to begin with - or at least not without extreme care - surely a tricky and time-consuming thing, particularly if you’ve ruled out all expensive purchases from the start.

OK everybody, now relax and just enjoy the music...if you still can. :(

I listen to what I like regardless of the recording quality, and in most cases it is not good to various degree. Yet, even the worst of them sound a little better with each small upgrade. At the same time you hear better recordings’ flaws as well. As for the tailoring your system, especially speakers, to the kind of music you mostly listen to, in reality I think you have to unless perhaps it is an absolute super high end, whatever it is. Though I listen to some jazzrock, mostly it’s various acoustic music including vocal. For rock I would choose very different speakers, Pink Floyd plays okay, though.
I also think that no super high end set-up can be called that without top open reel deck as a source, in addition to turntable. 

Interesting thread.  I will weigh in (but with massive caveats in the TL;DR section)

- My end is low high-end compared to one with a $50K amps (I surmise a $50K amp probably means $100-$200k or greater systems).  I.e. my end in $ is just a bit more than that of a $50K+ amp in total.

Before shooting arrows at me, please read the TL;DR section after the regret/non-regrets - OK - hopefully that makes sense.

Regrets: 
(1) I regret experimenting with ~ $10K of digital amps except my modded NuPrime st-10 (home office use only).  They are cool (temp wise and tech wise), but my tube and SS amp are better suited to my ears and system.  Fortunately, they resold OK.
(2) I regret not getting a tube amp sooner - its not a panacea, and for some music I do goto my very fine sounding SS amp.  But for a lot of my vinyl classical music - its the thing...
(3) I regret holding on to my prior gen speakers and not getting them mfg upgraded sooner.  they are quite amazing now.  And for TVM - a great value.  
(4) I regret a slew of cheaper phono cartridges before I found a relatively expensive, well regarded, high-end cartridge (ZYX Universe II) wow.  Made a bigger difference than my $10K table over the prior $3k table.

On the fence:
- Power conditioning.  Most of the benefit came from careful power grounding (see #4 below).  I have not noticed any change in musical parameters - although I tend to feel its a bit cleaner / tighter sound all around - but hardly...

To be balanced, a couple of non-regrets:
(1) Went with well regarded modest cables - mild change to overall system, not worth the $ but happy not to have spent $$$$.  I did put in one set of $$ cables - it was meh.  At least for me, cables do change things around a bit in what I hear (I'm sure there are theories re: signal noise due to grain boundaries, magic impedance matching, cold-fusion-electrons and so on).  However, the value for cable $ going to $$$$ has been better spent elsewhere - if not just for having more $ for music itself (i.e. real-record cleaning machine, vinyl and HDtracks...)
(2) Tube pre - VTL is great
(3) Having both a tube and SS amp.  I found one of each type I can listen all day to.  And yes, my tube has a bit more neutrality than some tube, and my SS has a bit more sweetness than some SS.  The SS rocks better - but works for all.  The tube is for vinyl classical music - but works for all.
(4) Having spent about a day working out the safe and correct grounding scheme between all equipment down to their power sources - keeping to a "star" as much as possible for the power, and carefully checking which equipment induces noise/hum - and checking the condition of the grounding and so on.  I have no "removed" pins, no unsafe grounds and so on.  I have no hum nor noise from mains or induced either...

TL;DR Section:

The long-list of caveats:
- I've dealt with $800 up to my current system intimately
- I've heard up to $100k+ systems, but not in a home - only at a high-end dealer (and more than one didn't seem right to me - probably their setup, but certainly dissuaded me from some massive purchase)
- I've always had a mental "guide" for myself (please - this is only my rule, not a recommendation to anyone) I want to keep my audiophile equipment urge to something like low-single-digits % of net-worth - not much more. The one time I broke that was when I was in my late 20's and bought speakers well above my pay-grade - and kept them for 20 years.
- Another mental guide - if I bought a single component (aka speaker, amp) I had to promise myself that for the $ I spent, I might be mad, but I could not be really-sad if I lost that $ to a disaster. I.e. no risking a house payment, kids college fund and so on if I lost that $.
- I don't sell the last component till I'm OK with the new. In reality, I still have more than 50% of my last 2 generations of components. And I had my last generation speaker upgraded by the Mfg - and it now sounds great in a our cabin in the woods.
- I don't feel I have golden ears. I have played in orchestras, still play piano, like a mix from classical to rock, notice the difference from vinyl from digital (and not just the noise aspect), notice the difference of a tube chain vs a SS chain (actual system experience), sometimes notice the difference phase-inversion can make for some recordings
- Still get fooled by a change-sometimes-sounds-better-initially syndrome. Only to realize after a few weeks of listening that going back to the old setup "sounds better" again (and later change again to sound better :). This is mostly from power and signal cable changes.
- I have had people listen to the system who have much much better systems and heard much much more equipment. They tend to say "sounds good", "you could improve a few things, but for the money pretty good". We tend to find the system is: Not as "big" dynamically as the best. Very good on vocals, but not the bees knees on "in your face" projection. Good bass floor, tuneful bass but not a room shaker. Stage is about 1 foot wider than the outside of the speakers (set about 9 ft apart, sitting about 9 ft away) - good not great. Spatial resolution is in the 1-2 cm range, not millimeters (again good, not great). Very even tempered up and down the frequency range - I'd say its one area this system is excellent at, and favors my ears and listening preferences. Not razor edgy, not blurred - not super sweet, but not super airy - not as tight as a steel wire, but not bloated - Good balance for these attributes.

FYI:  System inventory today (about 75% are used purchases which kept $ spent much lower than retail):
- Revel Ultima Salon 2
- VTL 7.5 mk ii using psvane 12AU7 (did some NOS and modern comparisons, and have about 12 pairs of different 12AU7 in my collection - some are meh, some I'm saving ...)
- Ayre DPS turntable
- Ayre P-5xe phono preamp
- ZYX Universe II cartridge
- NAD M50/M52 music server and DAC
- Wells Audio Innamorata SS amp [PS:  This is a very very very fine SS amp - not crazy expensive.  I had someone unsell me from a $20K amp to look at this one.  I bought straight from Jeff Wells the owner.  If you are looking to spend ~$7K on an SS amp that kicks way above its $, this is it.)
- Primaluna HP power amp (KT150 tubes) - people say this is lush with the EL34 (I have a set) - but in my system and room, this works out the best balance of tone, dynamics, prat and all that
- Analysis plus through out the system except:  JPS superconductor from pre to tube amp
- An odd mix of power supply.  We have voltage sags due to "power days" so I do have my outlet "fronted" by a APC HT15.  It feeds an Audience AR6.  That feeds all the equipment with the help of a Shunyata power distribution strip (no NR, just nice a shiny looking).  Current heavy devices straight to AR6.  Light current devices into the power strip.
- Hannl record cleaning machine (old style)

OK, time for me to fess up. Someone asked a little while ago if anyone went the opposite direction from upgrading to a super high end system. Guilty as charged.

Two years ago I had a rather good but not terribly expensive headphone system with pure tube Woo Audio headphone Amp with all NOS Tung Sol and Sylvania tubes, a VERY modded Oppo DC player, including the Linear Power Supply mod, Analysis Plus ICs and Power Cord and Nordost Blue Heaven power cord. Oh, two count em Herbies tube dampers per tube for total of 6. I used cryo’d, naked Sennheiswr 600s with Stephan Arts cabling with that system.

Since then, just for experimentation, I went to a much simpler system based around a Sony Walkman portable CD player and Sony Walkman cassette player with Grado SR-60 headphones. I have no power cords, no interconnects and no speaker cables. I also have no power transformers, no grounding issues (since I dint have a ground), no fuses, no house AC, no big honking capacitors, no digital cable. I already got out of ye olde room acoustics game with the last system. No more teacher’s dirty looks. 😜

During the past year I have upgraded both my headphone system and my main speaker system. The total price for the headphone rig (dac, amp, headphones was <$1000 and the sound is incredible. I think the law of diminishing returns would kick in big time beyond that price point. The same could be said about my main system <$5000.

I dare say not one person here were they to hit the power ball some weekend, that they wouldn’t rush out and buy some ridiculously high ticket gear once the funds were made available .

So merely for the purposes of ‘closure’ , if everyone wants to start a fund so I can get out there, buy a lot of stuff and then report back, I’m all in on being the lab monkey for that project! Really! I would not mind it at all.

I think until that happens enmasse’, or at least by me, the demographic being sought for feedback on this topic will remain silent.

So far I’ve seen one post saying ‘no regrets’ in the ultra high end shell game. Albeit there was no quantification or qualification on the gear acquired or removed.

As one poster previously said, folks with uber ultra dough just don’t knock about these forums much. Apparently not.

For the rest of us, it is all about what we hear, prefer and desire, and perhaps a few other insidious out of whack character traits which seem far more compeling.

Plain boredom can fuel change, it ain’t always about pursuing excellence..

I once saw a pair of Avalong idolons someone had hand painted white. Not a great job either. Their price however at that point was very attractive as near giveaways. The folks who traded them in were quite wealthy and had other obvious priorities when it came to music, ala, ‘décor’. For the man to keep them his wife made him paint them.

To say ONLY speakers or any other single item is the key is flatly ridiculous.

It takes no time at all and darn little investment to begin with just popular speakers $3 to $5K or less perhaps, and start migrating in and out pieces to see what is different and what is ‘subjectively’ better, or not. Unless, of course one is either deaf, brain dead, or can not be honest appraising the results.

Why more expensive? Not every thing made is made the same way, or with the same items, or in the same fashion, an therefore in degrees, sounds unlike the rest.

the rig I’ve put the most money and time into attending to synergy gives the greatest involvement and resolution, or illusions of reality. All the talk of measurements in the world will not deter me from knowing experience, and money do matter in achieving loftier heights of musical presentations because I have like many others, financial limits. Without any limits I tend to think I’d be a lot more capricious with audio gear, and at times, esthetics alone could be a deciding factor.

Ssynergy’ not speakers is the biggest most expensive cost as it involves time, experience and investigation with equipment, rooms and the associated lists thereafter are varied and lengthy.

If one has not yet discovered, in this past time, there is absolutely no, ‘one size fits all’ anything.

I’ve heard as have other posters here, rigs I would not buy with someone else’ money. All about details and not about the music. Too dry. Too wet. Too…. ? and sure, too expensive to justify getting.

Not having great knowledge is easy to overcome. It slows one down but won’t usually stop or hurt them too much. What I think I know can be even more of a pitfall. What bites me on the butt everytime however, is those things I know which simply are not so.

Thus far the axiom “Everything matters” still has merit as applied to building an outstanding audio rig. I doubt those with bottomless pockets feel anywhere near as strongly on this ideology for their’s is the freedom to move about at will experiencing various degrees of cool, great, and beyond with regret or remorse playing inconsequential roles.

But again, I’m certainly willing to find out for sure if anyone wants to start up a Patrion account I can draw from!

10,000 members at $10 each, every month, yep, should take no time at all to find out exactly where the demon of diminishing returns lives in the more than $50K item shelves.

Great Thread...I really enjoy reading this forum weekly...Thanks!

@jji666 - fair point, and the conventional wisdom is that speakers and audio systems in general should be genre agnostic...
The presentation will be enhanced by a better system in my estimation. I use horns in my main system and though those aren’t necessarily more expensive than dynamic speakers, they do a marvelous job in dynamic swings- (the so-called "jump" factor). I play rock on my vintage Quad ESLs too, and they give a different perspective without the dynamics, sheer volume or scale (though as a smaller portrait in miniature they can sound fabulous with well recorded rock).
We attended the King Crimson show in Austin a few nights ago, and it was fun to take in the latest live recording on LP- the Toronto 2016 recordings for a morning after "hair of the dog." No way could I reproduce the sheer volume and sock of all three drum kits and the depth of some of the synth and bass guitar sounds with all of the power of a 2900 seat auditorium in my comparatively smaller listening room, but it sounded pretty good. (It’s a good live recording too).
All the criteria used to differentiate sound quality applies, at least to my ears- yes, I use real instruments as a reference and want to evaluate a system hearing a grand piano-- often a very difficult instrument to record and reproduce faithfully--but much of what I listen to--early post psych/pre-prog folk and hard rock sounds wonderful on system capable of high quality reproduction.
The fault often isn’t even the amplified v. acoustic instruments; to me, the shortcomings in a lot of popular music have to do with the quality of the recording. The era I’m fond of-- late ’60s, very early ’70s- was typically fewer tracks, often less outboard processing and in many cases, less overdubbing. (Not to say that the studio concoctions in the ’70s sound bad when the engineer because auteur rather than just recordist, but the risk is greater when the studio wizardry falls flat). The bands also didn’t have the crutch of being able to punch in a better take- they could and often did play through the whole song in a take and that can sound better than some Franken-recording sewn together from parts. You can hear the room, the position of the instruments and get a better sense of the stage if recorded that way (and not manipulated to hell and back in mixing and other post-production "magic.")
And, without the ability to do 100 takes and stitch together a "perfect" recording from multiple takes and overdubs, the natural acoustic, such that it is, along with bleed through, gives a coherence to the sound that is equally telling.
The other reality for me is that I’m not listening to audiophile recordings. Some just aren’t great sounding. And there, no matter how good or bad the system, it isn’t going to WOW you with sonics- the goosebumps come from the composition and performance.
The question -- I guess it should be rhetorical-- is how much one limits their listening by the sonic quality of the recordings. I can’t live on a diet of audiophile warhorses, and like all kinds of stuff, from pop to proto-metal to hard psych as well as some of the more adventurous material that defies genre.

I don’t want to hijack this thread, but I have a question about what type of music folks listen to on their high end systems. Here is the basis of that question: with just a few limited exceptions, rock music is already amplified through electronics and speakers even when you hear it live. So what is the goal with audiophile gear if rock music is your primary choice for music? I mean, is it to reproduce the electronics at the venue? The electronics in the studio?

This all makes more sense to me when one is a fan of classical, jazz, acoustic, other forms of music where striving for realistic electronic reproduction at least has a theoretically reachable objective of reproducing the sound of a live non-electronic instrument.

I listen to enough jazz and other forms of music where there is an acoustic or at least not re-reproduced and re-amplified element that choosing and upgrading gear has some relevance to trying to reproduce the sound of an instrument.

But I still mostly listen to rock, and for me, with rock music, the objective is detail, combined either with a sweet or pretty sound or a powerful, slam sound, depending on the type of rock. I want it to move me emotionally, and the choice of what direction it should move me depends on the mix of mood and choice of rock music style.

The point is, yes, I get that whatever sounds good to someone is valid because there is no objective standard here whatsoever. But I would posit that diminishing marginal returns probably hit much lower in price point if rock is your music of choice, or at least you are chasing after tiny little tweaks, relative to types of music where reproducing the sound of an instrument, rather than reproducing the sound of an electronic pickup and a Marshall stack, is the goal.

I've heard a couple of so called super high end systems and I didn't like most of them. The biggest sin was bloated soundstage,  bloated images, singers 3m (10 ft) high and so on. No sense of realism at all. I liked MBL systems. I have a modest system and enjoy it better then most of the super systems. 

I totally agree with Pokey 77 and bmontani.
Through the years i haved been climbing up the ladder. Had some nice equipment that i traded in, with some cash added and got a even better equipment/sound. Always tried to find the weak spot in the chain and the best gear for the money awailebel.
About 20 years ago the cabels became real components and the level raised substancial, then the decoupling and all the room treatments etcappeared. The tweaks have raised the bar so high that i often think its much better in my musicroom, than real concerts (not acoustical ones).
In the beginning i was analysing the soundstage but at a point it became much more emotional and here is is were the ultra highend stuff really makes sence to me. 
I can also lisen to a low level system but at a very low volume and not for so long time. In order to get a ultra highend system where you have a concert in front of you, there are so many things( in fact everything) you need to adress.
 Its my expirience that you never get a superb sound at a show because there are so many thing you cannot control. It takes years of hard work to reach a ultra high level and today i would say the tweaks is 50% of the result. The rest is split between the music material and the hardware.
Beleave your ears and emotions or ask your wife.
I have never regreat using a huge sum on my audio/music life but i almost only buy used gear as my budget is limited. If a component dosent perform well, try another. Nice designd and handmade gear can always sold again.
Worst deal ever: was a pair of Halcro DM 68 amps, they arent making music in my ears. I tried them and sold them quickly again but they thought me a lot about musical feeling. 
Best deal are the 2LP 45RPM's from the late 50's. 
Biggest problem, is the lack of posibillityes to try equipment before buying it. Dealers are worth giving a higher price if they give a proper service. 

Happy lisining.

Strange thread topic.  Has anyone made the drop to entry level cheap made in China budget crap and been ambivalent about it?

Audiophiles enjoy the sound as much as music.
$10k new will not get you anywhere close to great sound even in a small room and one source. $50k new is possible in small and medium size room but tough. That said, $10k system with one source can sound pretty good in smaller room. Great means great in my vocabulary.

I’ve got 3 audio systems to listen and compare, ranging from my car (Acura 2004 TL) to a Bose Computer setup and my home “Audiophile” System....around $40,000+/- and growing rapidly.

I enjoy all 3 of them, almost equally.
Music 🎶 moves me when it’s really good and well recorded so I can enjoy it regardless of the quality or the sophistication of whatever I happen to be listening on at the time.
Its the music, not the equipment we should be enjoying. 👍

I have listened to multiple $500K systems.  My usual reaction is ho hum.  They sound good but my "ah ha" moment is how little you need to spend to get excellent sound!  Careful matching can create great results in the $10k - $50k range.

Have to agree with Stingreen.  Depends on what you want to hear your system reproduce.

Terry9 - why use a resistor volume control at all?  Try a transformer volume control as all resistors have a sound.

My preamp has no capacitors in the signal path with a TVC and DHT tubes.  Sounds amazing.

Now go build a pair of field coil speakers and see what happens!

Happy listening.

Yes, trust your ears and have a common sense. But also, especially when considering a big upgrade, try to get another pair of good ears.
That person might have different preferences so it may complicate the audition but in the end would probably help more than not.
My friend musician prefers electrostatic sound, I don’t. We can argue but what we hear is very close, only his hearing is better. But I am no punk b-tch either.

Randy-11, I did just that but did you know that granite attracts lightning? 
I would disagree that Quads and Harbeth are the best $$ can buy. I would also disagree that the loudspeaker is the most expensive piece of equipment you purchase. Quads are really nice but far from the best IMO.
you need to look at the total synergy of the system. Not all cheap amps, even with the so-called vendor specs, are equal to more expensive amps with the same ratings. I have had Yamaha and onkyo ht amps putting out 140 watts and using my older Totem mani 2’s that needed power, an equivalent Classe or McIntosh amp blew away the sound of the Yamaha or Onkyo.
say you have $20k for a complete system, how much would you spend on speakers when you know you will have to buy an amp, preamp, phono preamp, turntable, tonearm, cartridge, external dad, streamer/cdp, and cables to hook everything up. That $20k doesn’t go very far. 
You can buy the best speakers, but if you compromise on the amp (not enough power for example), or compromise on the tt setup or dac, then the best sound quality you will get is from your weakest link.

@whatjd 

Please explain.

I don't know if what I have is super high end, I have about 75k in my system but I have to say for me it is worth every penny.  I am very happy with the sound.  Most of my equipment is used from Audiogon and US Audiomart so if you purchased it at full retail it would probably be worth closer to 125K to 150K but no regrets.  It sounds just amazing.  Like many of the people who responded, there are diminishing returns.  To get an incremental improvement it might cost significantly more but if you have the scratch and love the hobby, it is worth it in my opinion.

@jond 

Yep, "believe yourself. And your ears." After all, you are the one who will  pay your hard-earned $$ for that high end rig. And of course you'll be the one listening to it so you might as well buy something you really like. 

joey_v, you need to read your own post to find the fault in it.  

No regrets from my higher end Hi-Fi experences/purchases.  

People who are really up in rarified air don't take the time to post on audiogon.  ON the other hand, we (here on audiogon) are a group made of individuals who place importance on value at their respective price points/budgets. 

@geoffkait Understood and sorry if I put words in your mouth. I guess my point was believe yourself. And your ears.

jond wrote,

"What @geoffkait calls "stove piping" I, and others, call trusting our ears."

Whoa! Hey, it's not nice to put words in someone's mouth. Stove piping means nothing of the sort. Stove piping is an Intel expression that refers to the problem that arises when multiple organizations and multiple individuals/sources come to different and contradictory conclusions regarding political situations, military actions required, probable actions/motives of individuals or states, etc. Stove piping is an undesirable situation that arises because of lack of coordination and lack of oversight. This is what happens in the audio hobby, too. It's very disorganized. It then becomes a game of, who do you believe? Follow?

People with the means to afford living voice vox olympian speakers and comparable gear also have the means to discard such electronics (as a tax write off, of course) and simply buy whatever else is on their mind at any particular time. Also, not likely they contribute in writing or reading to audiogon forum posts.

What @geoffkait  calls "stove piping" I, and others, call trusting our ears. It's worth a try.

It’s true that there are a lot of variables. But variables CAN be controlled. Time of day, day of week, the weather ⛈ sunspot activity 🌞 humidity, whatever. You change ONLY ONE VARIABLE AT A TIME. Then you will know what causes the change - the one variable you changed. Hel-loo! It ain’t necessarily easy. Nobody promised you a rose garden. People climb Everest all the time. 🏔 Even though it’s not easy. Audiophiles don't even know what ALL the variables even are, for crying out loud. 😫  In order to progress you kind of have to know WHERE you are and WHERE you want to go. AND how to get there. That really is the key. 🗝 Otherwise, you’re just shooting blanks in the dark. 🔫

People don’t really seem to know where they are on the overall curve of performance or what is really possible. I know what you’re thinking: "but what about live unamplified sound?" As far as knowing where to go next they’re apparently pretty much stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I posted earlier everyone is stove piping. 🏭 Everyone reaches different conclusions. Stove piping, stove piping, stove piping, stove! Yeah!

TOO MANY variables influence sound production. However to me the most important involve the original source material (CD Vinyl DVD etc), understanding your room acoustics, the quality of your speakers (they are the main transducers after all, spend your money here). Good ones are easy to pick out. Also a good amp and preamp. I say good because
amps long ago reached the "start of the art". However it should match your speakers well and you should LIKE the sound.  Finally if you are into vinyl a decent turntable and especially a first rate cartridge are big factors in how well vinyl will sound.  
 You really need to play around with speaker placement to get the best sound in a given room. Acoustical engineers will always tell you that in setting up a theater sound analysis is paramount.

Personally I think that an excellent system can be had for far less than the super high end and that the law of diminishing returns
sets in fast after you spend $30,000 for speakers, amp/preamp and
input devices. 

One last thing, if you have poor cables or your power is of questionable quality you will never be happy in my opinion.

Finally, many of us are a bit obsessive and consequently are never
quite happy with our systems. That's OK but the industry counts
on that personalty trait to sell the next big thing. So most of all just ENJOY THE MUSIC.

Some time ago I used to go to various shows, where I could listen to stuff I never will be able to afford. Some of sounded amazing and you wanted to sell your kidney, some not so much. But in general dcs, MBL, Lamm, Focal Utopia, etc sounded spectacular in their mega-buck setups, so if you have $$$ and proper room treatment, why not.. It is a hobby at the end... At the end it is not how it sounds, but how do you feel it sounds and how you enjoy the music.
PS there was only high-end brand which sounded for my ears offensively, Walmart stereo bad every time I heard it - 47 labs reference series. And yet many audiophiles love and swear by them... go figure.

@jl35 exactly, this is a game of pairing equipment and rooms. I could spend 10k on speakers and power them with the best possible amps, drop them in a 10x10 room, and be underwhelmed because the room is just too pressurized.

The key is to design a system that you ENJOY listening to, within the environment's constraints. We can treat rooms to help improve those constraints, but they are still there.

while I have heard less expensive systems that sound great and expensive systems that sounded very not great, very expensive systems that were very well matched, both to equipment and room, sounded way better by far...

Another thing I want to bring up is there is typically a dissonance between system improvement and musical enjoyment.

And this has financial ramifications also.

Yes you can buy the best amp and you might have a better soundstage and imaging, but does it actually get you to listen to
more music longer and more frequently?  Or is it just another data point you are trying to reach in systematic improvements?

Sometimes I have to catch myself, wait, I'm spending 17k on an amp.... Am
i gonna be listening to that much more music?

Re: Law of Diminishing Returns
Just to chime in on the subject of diminishing returns, I don’t actually believe there is a Law of diminishing returns for audio, there’s no hyperbolic curve, or some artificial ceiling that cannot be surpassed. "I don't think it's worth spending twice as much to get only the last 5%." 😀 What is required is thinking outside the box. Audio is an art as much as a science.

There is also the principle of "stove piping" involved here I suspect, where audiophiles develop their systems more or less in a vacuum. And each person reaches certain conclusions based on what he finds out. Each one declares he has found Audio Nirvana, yet when an independent observer listeners to those systems he discovers that they don’t sound nearly as fabulous as their owners claim or believe. In fact, by and large, they frequently sound quite bland and generic and distorted. You know, kind of like those big expensive systems like at big audio shows.

"Wow! What a view, I never thought I’d be on the summit of Everest!"
"Calm down, were only at Base Camp. We’re only half way up."

Yer a stove piper
Stove piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove
Stove piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove

The point of diminishing return is a moving target. Depends on the amount of discretionary funds available, and knowledge base acquired by the person developing the system. 

Those with a deep pocket and a shallow knowledge base are more likely to end up with an expensive system that could easily be bested by a lessor expensive one.

A large component of the knowledge base required is to understand what one's own preferences are. This takes exposure to many systems.

My discretionary funds are limited, my knowledge base not near the point of diminishing return.

Joey V I like your style it reflects my way of thinking.

Ok Ill bite.

I don’t think my system is super high end, compared to others on Audio Aficionado, but I’ll give you insight into some of the pieces I have. Because this thread is asking about pricing, I will include prices as well.

Speakers: BW 802D3 ($22K, paid $18K)
Source: Emm Labs DAC2x ($15K, paid $5K) + Emm Labs TSDx Transport ($15K, paid $5K)
Preamp: Cary SLP-05 tube preamp ($7.5K, paid $3.75K)
Amp: Boulder 2060 stereo ($46K, paid $17K)
Speakerwires: Audioquest WEL 8ft single/biwire ($31K, paid $5K)
Power Cords: Audioquest NRG-WEL 3ft x2 ($4K each, paid $1K each)
XLR: Still need to upgrade
Power conditioner: PS Audio P5 Regenerator ($3.5K, paid $650)

I have a dedicated and treated room, just for stereo.  I have clouds hanging from the ceilings and treatments on all 4 walls.  I have dedicated circuits for the room as well. 

Based on my experience, there are certainly certain components that actually made a difference for me. Is my system perfect? I don’t think so. Some pieces are still in flux and will likely be changed as time goes on.

2 things that will probably not be changed? The Boulder amp and the Audioquest WEL units.

Is there diminishing returns? I believe so. But I am pretty happy with the performance I got from the units.

I thought the difference going from my old Cary 306 SACD to the Emm Lab units was excellent, more real, more analog, yadda yadda... IMO, it was worth the $8K delta that I paid. Would I pay $30K for the 2 units? No.

The difference going from my previous Classe M600 delta monoblocks and the Cary 211FE tube monoblocks to the Boulder 2060 was very significant. To me, it was a no brainer coming from those $8K (used, paid) units to the $17K Boulder... the difference was very significant and was worth the delta in price again.... would I pay $46K for the Boulders? No.

The difference going from my old wire regular 12g OFC and Satori units to the AQ WEL was very significant. Definitely worth the $5K I paid... would I pay the retail of $31K? No way.

So, yes, diminishing returns are in play here, but I feel like the units I have which can be considered to be pretty high end, do display improvement over lesser units in my room and to my ears, would I pay the exhorbitant and racket pricing? No way.

But to me, for what I paid, it was worth it.

But yes, someone said it earlier in the thread... you gotta be very careful with these upper end purchases, moving them or flipping them is not easy as the market is much thinner as you move up. Some people have so much money they would rather buy new and have dealer support than save some cash and pay used.

Just my 2 cents.

I've owned my pair of Quad ESLs since 1973. They were eventually put to the side (and eventually into crates) while I used the Crosby modified 63, which was, overall, a better performing speaker in terms of bass, dynamics and dispersion, but they lacked the utter coherence of the original in my estimation. I only recently got my original pair restored by Kent McCollum, and they sound wonderful, with a pair of old Quad II amps, restored and re-glassed with GEC KT 66s. I don't have fancy wire, and in fact, have still not finished the turntable, so am using a CD player as a source-not a particularly notable one. The Quad based system is a joy to listen to.
But, there are many other things I own that I also like:
-my Lamm ML2s are wonderful with horns. I will probably not part with them.
-my Kuzma XL and Airline arm is now in its 11th year of service and I'll still thrilled with its performance. I did have to buy a pricey isolation platform for its new location, but it was worth it.
There are a number of other components I have owned over the years that I regard as enduring and bring me joy.
The point of diminishing returns is a very personal one and cannot be measured by any objective criteria in my estimation. Now that I'm past my big earning years, I'm more sensitive to value for the dollar but never felt compelled to upgrade for the sake of the latest and greatest. 
I'm finally looking at digital sources, to give me more access to music, despite my life long commitment to the LP.  
For the last number of years, most of my money relating to hi-fi has gone into records, not gear. I'm also enjoying it more than ever. 

This is a journey for sure, and you need to find the synergy between components. I do feel that your speakers and your source are extremely important.