Seems like the ethernet over powerline adapters (~$40) to an optical segment and back just before the streamer would proved the most flexibility. The optical portion, with a nice short shielded ethernet cable to the streamer, can be had for under $100.(newegg)
My node2i always had signal issue with wifi, 2.4 or 5, with no walls between wifi router and it. It isn’t the wifi spec, it is the interference and the specific streamer device’s capabilities, and internet service, that are the issues I have had with audio wifi. Innuos pulse mini now, no wifi on it.. with an optical section… much happier now.
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I mentioned at the beginning of this thread that you can buy a router that accepts a SIM card which means you don't need hard wired internet and still get 5G.
So MESH etc. is not required.
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FYI, I also use. Node 2 using wifi. I use a RME dac with it and I had a lot of dropouts and constantly had to reboot the Node and my phone. I moved the Dac and the Node apart from each other and my dropouts stopped. There is now an 8 inch separation where before they were butting up next to each other. A simple solution
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I would feed the ethernet cable through the walls and put a jack on the wall. Makes life so much easier.
Seems your modem is part router, otherwise not sure you’d have Wi-Fi.
Once you have an ethernet Jack on the wall, you’ll have a better connection to feed a network switch that can provide digital Signal more conveniently to a lot of different destinations
Don't complicate your life with all this extender stuff. It's not rocket science.
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Not everyone has a DAC that relies solely on usb. Timing does matter. I have had at least three streamers, at varying price points, where the Ethernet connection was audibly superior to the WiFi. I urge the OP, if he isn’t convinced, to run a long Ethernet connection as an experiment, even if the cables are temporarily in inconvenient areas, and compare to his WiFi,. For the purposes of this experiment the cheapest CAT-5 will do. If he doesn’t perceive a difference, then just optimize the WiFi. If he prefers wired, then make the one time expenditure to get his house wired. A competent installer shouldn’t require more than an hour, and doesn’t have to be a music business specialist.
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Keep ''em coming I'll have a scotch.
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@musicfan2349 I did not disagree with you nor your explaination I stated you are 100% correct and clearly stated. "You are 100% correct in the deeper clarification but most are not that curious. Daisy chain is something most can understand and your breakdown is technically correct. But I’ll stick with Daisy chain when explaining our Mesh Ai systems :) No aurgument here you are on point. I am not a 40 year software veteran and I learned a long time ago KISS.
All the best!
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@balooo2 mesh is NOT daisy chaining... Here is a better explanation, please see "Star topology versus daisy-chain topology":
https://www.asus.com/us/support/FAQ/1045875/#point3
The two really are fundamentally different. OTOH if you're comfortable with your simplification, though inaccurate, far be it from me to convince you otherwise. After 40+ years as a software professional, I've learned when to stop arguing.
Happy listening.
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panzrwagn
@cleeds Yes, the streaming protocol has a name - it’s called TCP/IP ...
Of course. That’s exactly what I said:
... streaming really is streaming, it’s not something else. Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify all use streaming protocols ...
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@cleeds Yes, the streaming protocol has a name - it's called TCP/IP and it ensures 100% packet delivery in order thanks to the use of caches, buffers, CRC error detection and retransmission. If your streaming efforts aren't time-sensitive, TCP can be advantageous for enabling the full bandwidth of a network and ensuring enhanced reliability. Amazon Prime, Qobuz, and Netflix use TCP as the transport layer protocol. YouTube on the other hand use both UDP and TCP protocols.
TIDAL uses TCP/IP to send encapsulated PCM data (as FLAC) from it's servers on the Internet to your PC/Mac. There is no concept of "jitter" while audio data is in this domain - the packets are received and reliably assembled into a PCM stream, buffered by your PC, and then sent to your DAC via the OS-specific audio layers (e.g. Core Audio for a Mac). While packets are sequenced, TCP/IP does NOT contain any temporal information, in that the packets are not associated with a time of arrival and associated re-transmit - it's completely asynchronous.
Until it's being sent to the DAC, timing simply does not matter. And, since just about all DACs receive PCM data via an asynchronous USB input, timing from the PC does not come into play either (i.e. there is no "jitter" here, either).
If you're live streaming - a Zoom call - UDP is considered the preferred protocol. UDP does not guarantee packet he other protocol used for streaming is delivery, but offers slightly greater throughput. User Datagram Protocol (UDP) is specifically chosen for time-sensitive applications like gaming, playing videos, or Domain Name System (DNS) lookups. It is not used for streaming music.
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@musicfan2349 I remembered seeing "daisy chain topogrphy" as an explanation in Asus’s set up guide see page 10 of the link.
https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1kBHyTa5TL.pdf
If you look at Asus’s expalnation in advertisments etc they refer to the technology as "daisy chaining routers". Google it. Your explanation is more complete but for most this is an easy wrap around.
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Inexpensive but good sounding solution for me was short ethernet cable from router to fiber media converter box to fiberoptic cable to another FMC box and short Ethernet cable into my Dac streamer
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balooo2
unbunch them for Pete’s sake
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I stated earlier lets be civil in our communication I had people like you in mind.
I suggest you take whatever complaint you have about me to the moderators. I have no idea what your issue is.
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@cleeds unbunch them for Pete’s sake... You intentionally omit parts of comments all the time. If you meant no foul my bad. Can you admit the the same and move on? Often this is what a thread here becomes just nasty uncalled for spewing of childish "gotcha" bale, I stated earlier lets be civil in our communication I had people like you in mind.
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I’m still comfortable with explaining the Ai Mesh system as daisy chaining
That’s ok. Some people are comfortable being wrong.
... your comment is still no less dishonest ..
You’re being silly. If you truly think I’m lying and being dishonest, take your complaints to the moderators. The behavior you cite isn’t tolerated here.
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@cleeds I’m still comfortable with explaining the Ai Mesh system as daisy chaining in simple terms, and your comment is still no less dishonest. I may be confused as you say but I still I am smart enough to own the best wifi system availible in the view of many in this discussions opinion.
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@musicfan2349 You are 100% correct in the deeper clarification but most are not that curious. Daisy chain is something most can understand and your breakdown is technically correct. But I'll stick with Daisy chain when explaining our Mesh Ai systems :)
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Mesh is not a daisy-chaining, as has been explained to you. You sound a little confused.
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@cleeds Why leave the most pertinet compnet of my comment out...
I stated "I've encountered some folk who are under the impression wireless Wifi and a mesh system are two different things they are not, mesh is simply daisy chaining a wireless signal." Which is a fact, Omitting parts of the entire sentence is dishonest.
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@balooo2 , with respect to your "daisy chain" description, not quite. To daisy chain something means that you configuring whatever to be in series with one another. However a *mesh* system is not "in series". Here's a good explanation:
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/what-is-mesh-wifi-router,news-24580.html
"With a mesh Wi-Fi router, one access point acts as the router or base station and connects to one of the best cable modems to get internet access. Meanwhile, the other nodes act as satellites, receiving internet from the base station and then rebroadcasting it to nearby devices.
All of these units share data back and forth and provide multiple sources of Wi-Fi. One of the best things about a mesh system is that unlike with Wi-Fi range extenders, they all share the same network, so you won’t have to switch to a new network as you move throughout your house."
I used to use simple extenders but keeping everything straight was a PITA. Not to mention all the SSDs to deal with. Messy. With mesh, you're not moving from one network to another. The handoff from one node to another is seamless.
Happy listening.
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balooo2
I've encountered some folk who are under the impression wireless Wifi and a mesh system are two different things they are not,
Huh? All wifi is wireless. Many wifi networks are not mesh so yes, they can be two different things.
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@musicfan2349 +1
To anyone interested in the Asus Ai Mesh system an "Extender" is any Asus wireless router that has a "Ai Mesh" designation (which is almost all the new Asus wireless routers).So don't be thrown off by that... What I also like about the Ai mesh system is you can buy a inexpensive Asus router with the Ai system capabilty and add it to a more capable unit or use it a stand alone down the line truly mix and match if you like. I've encountered some folk who are under the impression wireless Wifi and a mesh system are two different things they are not, mesh is simply daisy chaining a wireless signal.
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In other news members of the Audiogon forums have petitioned Elon Musk to extend Cat 8 cables from Starlink satellites to the surface of the earth as they are extremely concerned with signal quality over the air.
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Please don't take what I say as gospel, it is merely my experience.
Several have extolled the Asus Ai Mesh system and for what I have found is good reason: It works. It is easy to set up and tune and provides excellent coverage. We have one base router and two extenders. The router is upstairs in my office as I spend a lot of time there and it's easy to cycle the power on the network should I need to reset anything. It's also easy to log into the nodes via my PC or the app on my phone for firmware upgrades.
One extender is in my wife's office. It supports her work PC, her VOIP phone and coverage out to our gazebo. Makes it easy to stream music out there or control my BBQ smoker via wifi. 😉
The other extender is in our living room. It supports my Bluesound Node2 and sits across the room from the hifi. Note: Any wifi appliance will be "noisy" and can upset sensitive stereo gear. My CJ phono preamp was unusable! So the extender was moved and lives in a bookcase about 15' away then I ran Cat8 to the Node. I also shut off the LEDs on that node. No need to have them on. Voila! Clean, dependable streaming. No drilling. No one drilling holes, etc.
Some may denigrate using ANY wifi at all however consider this: Think about where the signal is coming from. Where on the planet is the music server originating and how many hundreds (thousands?) of hops between switches, etc. has it had to make before it reaches you??
Happy listening.
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Plus 1 for the Powerline adapter.
Had mine a couple years now and it’s solid as a rock.
NETGEAR Powerline adapter Kit, 2000 Mbps Wall-plug, 2 Gigabit Ethernet Ports with Passthrough + Extra Outlet (PLP2000-100PAS) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0778Y6K6N?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dp_3PP9TGBV3EGDQQ9STFCK
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@mahler123
Banking does absolutely require reliable data transmission. As an example, do a search on 'swift financial messaging services'. You'll see just how much reliable data transmission factors into banking.
Even visiting your own bank's website requires reliable networking. Otherwise, you wouldn't see a little locked padlock next to the URL in your browser window. Cryptography would be useless if bits were being changed. Nothing would ever be validated.
You can test this out yourself on Windows using the 'certutil' program on the command line to generate hashes of your audio files. Make a copy of an audio file. Use certutil to generate a SHA256 hash on the original (e.g. 'certutil -hashfile <your_file> sha256'). Then right click on the copy and select Properties. Modify one character of the metadata, e.g. increment the year - if it says 2008 change it to 2009. Apply your changes and run certutil on the copy. The hashes won't match. Another scenario would be to upload a file to Google Drive and download the copy. The hashes wouldn't match if bits were being changed in the process.
Timing issues are minimized because there are multiple buffers for data - from the physical network interface card, to the operating system, and finally at the application level (i.e. the music player software). For example, I use moOde and the playback buffer is 4 MB. For 192 kHz / 24 bit PCM audio, that's almost 4 seconds worth of music.
Besides, I think many audiophiles would be surprised at what jitter actually sounds like. Here's a link to a website that gives you several examples with a pure 1 kHz tone and then with music - http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like. There's also this - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/08/demo-musings-lets-listen-to-some-jitter.html.
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Your best bet is to pull your modem out of the basement. Have your ISP company move it , thats a horrible spot for Access Point. If you cannot do that have someone run Cat6 in the walls to a spot where you can put the Router within the main living area. The Wifi should be good enough if you pull it from the basement. You can then also get a switch or use the RJ45 connections on the router to run the cable to the Blue Sound once you move it.
Do not use repeaters they are garbage and never work. Repeaters half the bandwidth and you will have drop outs. Even many of the consumer Mesh systems are just fancy repeaters unless they have three radios in the devices to connect. None of that will solve your issue and you might as well just stick with Wifi.
What router are you using? is it your providers? Make sure its the latest as most ISPs provide WiFi6 routers these days. if not get a Wifi6 router.
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I just moved the modem. Might be the easiest solution.
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A good example of what @balooo2 o2 is referencing can be seen by going to a YouTube video on right clicking on the screen. This pops up a box and then click stats for nerds. This brings up a data box and one of the stats is buffer health. While we all agree that Youtube is streaming, it downloads 10 to 60 seconds of video in the buffer (local memory) and then plays from the buffer. In the very rare event that your computer receives data with an error, the software simply requests that data be resent and fills it into the buffer. I am not sure how Qobuz handless their streaming / downloads but the theory is the same. I have read that for Qobuz a user an adjust the buffer size. For some services, an entire song on your playlist can be stored locally.
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... streaming in a truer sense is AM FM radio or analog TV ...
No, broadcasting is not streaming and downloading is not streaming either. Streaming is a specific protocol. These words have specific meanings, there's no need to redefine them.
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@cleeds You and fredrik222 are both correct...The term "Streaming" is a term we’ve all come to understand and accept as movies or audio distributed via the internet or satellite. However streaming in a truer sense is AM FM radio or analog TV. no caches etc. You hit the nail on the head by stating "Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify all use streaming protocols". To crumble up the differences between radio transmission and internet/sat transmission a perfect marketing tool was required hence "Streaming" and to go any deeper would make the average persons head explode to crumble up the differences,not only that the intellectual curiousity isn’t there in the first place.
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.... streaming from Qobuz, Tidal, and others are actually not streaming, they are download at maximum available speed, and then that song is stored in a cache ...
No, streaming really is streaming, it's not something else. Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify all use streaming protocols.
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I can second the recommedation for using powerline ethernet adapters. I have one running from my modem to an adapter plugged into a wall socket. I have 5 streamers of various brands scattered about my house (including the garage) - each plugged into an adpater in a wall socket (even one plugged into a powerstrip). They all stream perfectly with no drops or lags in signal.
Another poster mentioned TP Link. They are great and so are others. I've learned that you don't have to use the same brand. I use a mix of TP Link, Netgear and Tenda.
Audiophile purists will likely say sumthin about noise from all the other things using electricity on your circuit. Maybe my ears are defective bcuz everyting sounds just fine to me.
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@panzrwagn +1
My two cents, as someone who has worked with Ethernet for almost 40 years, put in a good WiFi 6 mesh router setup, put a good network analyzer on your phone and learn how to assign WiFi to unused channels that give you good signal strength. That is the state of the art.
The Asus Ai Mesh system does exactly what you mention above regarding assigning signal strength.
@fredrik222 +1
You are also 100% correct songs are stored in a cache. To prove this if streaming music and someone sitting next to you watching video on an Ipad etc. asks "do you have an internet signal?" and 30 seconds to a minute later your media cuts out also. That is the cache dynamic in play.
The world is going wireless most new home builders are not even offering Eternet wiring on build playlist anymore because most don’t find value in it. In 5-10 years this will seem like a silly conversation. Most younger folks under 25 don’t even know what Lan is.
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@yage
Banking is undoubtedly an important actvivity, but one doesn’t need ultra reliable digital information transferance to achieve it. Correct perception of sound is a different process, where a few microseconds in timing can affect the architecture of the data read.
Wired is better, but it’s a matter of degree, not a night and day difference if one has optimized their WiFi setup
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@fredrik222
Thanks for this, I am a 100% with you.
The OP says that 'his' wifi has no dropp outs. Therefore, no need to change anything.
BDW, I am using both ways, cable and wifi to hear music from Quobuz. I cannot hear any difference in sound quality.
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So many people commenting, so few facts and so little knowledge, really sad.
First, Wi-Fi is wireless Ethernet. So the medium changes. But the same protocol.
Second, properly designed Wi-Fi can support almost all applications, outside multi-gigabit transfers and systems they use.
Third, Cat8 cables are made for 10G and above, and so far no consumer grade streamer supports those speeds.
Fourth, a fundamental concept of Ethernet is that as long there is stable connection, your data is transferred 100%.
Fifth, streaming from Qobuz, Tidal, and others are actually not streaming, they are download at maximum available speed, and then that song is stored in a cache for future playback. This fact alone 100% invalidates any and all “Ethernet upgrades”.
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Anyone use two Apple AirPort AirPort Extremes as a WiFi mesh setup? One hardwired to the router & communicating with a second in their audio room? That's what I use with quality cat 8 cable. Wondering what, if any, the limitations are in this type of mesh network?
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I use the TP Link Power Line adapters and they work great . From the TP Link AC adapter I run ethernet cable to a TP Link switch. The switch has two SFP fiber optic ports. I use a fiber optic media converter for my Vault and another one to my Aurender N200. Works great, quiet, you would never know i am running an ethernet over AC adapter.
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The OP @imaninatural mentioned a desire to move from wifi to wired. It was not stated what his/her reasons are. Is it in the hope of better audio quality? Or is it because the wifi has hiccups?
Hiccups can probably be mended with a wifi extender or a wifi-mesh setup.
I would not put my hopes up for improved sound quality if there already is enough bandwidth for lossless streams. They will reach your Bluesound Node without error, otherwise your Bluesound would not be able to update it's firmware without error.
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If you have cable throughout your house you could run an MOCA ethernet to coax adapter. Had a similar situation of modem on one floor and streamer on another. I had coax running through home so installed MOCA ethernet adapters on each end of coax. Works well.
https://worldwidesupply.net/blog/moca-adapters-beginners-guide/
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I tried hooking up a Matrix Element M2 tonight in my office to Cat6 a few feet from a 10Gbps switch and there was significant pops and crackles coming thru.
Disconnected the cable and used wifi - dead silent.
Well at least I actually tried it. Common knowledge ethernet can introduce electrical noise especially in locations with computers and other electrical gear. Google it sometime.
Enjoy the popcorn.But I'll have a scotch 🥃
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There is a thing called power line wi-fi adapters, TP-LINK is pioneer and better. Two is needed for one connection, comes in various bandwidth options sizes. Get one pair which more/suitable bandwidth. Moreover performance is defendant on tightness of connecting parts and lesser clutters the better the bandwidth.
This method is next best than drawing new Ethernet line, Try in Pre-loved market as it is cheaper and doesn't age.
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Cat 8 Ethernet cables are best, as shielding is part of the specification. I've had success with DbillionDa as they have 4 shielded foiled twisted pair(F/FTP). They are available up 150ft long, so an electrician might be able to help you find a way to get it to your room.
DbillionDa
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I compared a couple of wi-fi set ups from 1, 5,10 feet to the Node 130, and direct cabling with a 1 meter ethernet cable I had laying around.....there was a definite audible benefit to going wired direct. Even more noticeable was upgrading the cable to a Supra Audio Cat 8 and/or an Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable.
Do I care that there is no technological reason for that to be true? No.
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