In-Room responce measurement with Legacy Focus SE speakers

To attach a screen shot, any photo, it has to be on the web, not on your computer.

There may be easier ways, this is what I figured out:

I make a new virtual system, i.e. dads floor plan, import the screen saver (jpeg) to the virtual system. that gets it on the web.

right click the photo and copy image address (not the photo)

next, in your post: using the photo icon top bar (6th from left), paste the image address (url)

....................

after that, you can delete the virtual system if you want.

One last thought, OP:

You can use basic tone controls to bring out the bass, but generally speaking the better order of operations is to add room treatments first and then EQ/room correction afterwards.  Of course, using a bass control is easy, so you may want to just do that until you decide about the room treatments, but since the room treatments affect the tonal balance, be prepared to do it again, so for this reason I strongly suggest AGAINST big hammer approaches like room correction being your first option.

Best,

 

E

eric is right,

my method is to find the best you can, then consider room treatments, not start/try/guess room treatments without measurements.

I understand you young whippersnappers like sweeps, software, automatic calibration ...

I like single tones, every 1/3 octave, hand written chart. old school!

OP:

Yep, so the frequency response plots won't help you as much as time/energy plots.  REW has a number of tools for this, but their own forums are better places to go. 

With my own tools there's usually a gated measurement in the mid-high frequencies specifically to remove reflections from the measurement.  This lets me measure more or less, how well the direct sound reaches my room, but does nothing to tell me about intelligibility. 

This is why we turn to other views like waterfall and decay plots.

Best,

 

E

@elliottbnewcombjr Thanks for the idea and links for things!  This is exactly what I am wanting to do, using Room EQ Wizard (REW) just to get a very crude general idea of what the speaker is doing at the listening position with it's ability to play and record a frequency sweep.  I have a mic, and REW generates the sweep itself and records it in sync.  I also think REW has the ability to 'eq' some to the audio being output (audio out from headphone jack or via USB to DAC), so I could theoretically do a little crude tweaking for testing.  

The big thing I am seeing is trying to 'fill the space' some: it's very empty in general, and large in volume.  As @erik_squires mentioned, I think what is happening is long delay times, and a bit of that effect of having your speakers outside: there is no reinforcement of lower tones/frequencies, and mid to upper frequencies ARE being reinforced and just doing their own thing.

Yeah, I think that the speakers are too far from the front wall plus their location may have room node cancellation. Try moving them the toward the front wall (behind the speakers) 1 foot at a time to get a rough idea if that improves. His side walls are far enough away but something at the first reflection point to absorb will help. The Rega Ellicit Mk4 is not a high powered amp so it's adequate for power but not going to deliver strong bass with out some room reinforcement. JMHO. Moving speakers is free. You may fin that 4 feet out sounds fuller in the midrange and bass. 

OP:

One very useful tool you should also know about is the AM Acoustics Room Mode Simulator. Put your room dimensions in and it will show you the lowest modes. Try to keep your speakers and listening location out of those.

It won't help your reflection problems, but when you have that sorted, the bass will come out and you'll be all nit picky about that too. 😁

 

 

Best,

 

Erik

@mijostyn "Sibilant' is a very good descriptive word for what his room/speaker set up sounds like to me.  As mentioned, to my ears it sounds as if the woofers aren't even functioning.  It's funny you mention about getting an anechoic effect by taking the speakers outside: I had done that at work one summer for our fire crew (we have big old crappy yamaha tower speakers in our gym), and the sound was HORRIBLE. 

This looks like a lot, but is fairly straightforward

Legacy

These speakers are high sensitivity 95.4, it is not the amplification.

Use science, facts, to find basic information. Then go from there.

In the end, it’s your and/or his ears to make final adjustments

Measure your space, then measure your father’s space. Hmmmmm. I would tell him you want to know what you are missing, rather than what is wrong with his. You know him best.

1. Inexpensive Sound Pressure Level Meter (they do not have to be perfectly calibrated or accurate, just give you ‘relative answers’ as to the differences of the tested frequencies).

Make sure it has bottom threads for a tripod

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Pressure-30-130dBA-Warranty/dp/B00ECCZWWI/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=9C7f4&content-id=amzn1.sym.225b4624-972d-4629-9040-f1bf9923dd95%3Aamzn1.symc.40e6a10e-cbc4-4fa5-81e3-4435ff64d03b&pf_rd_p=225b4624-972d-4629-9040-f1bf9923dd95&pf_rd_r=HADBE7E3TSGCJCQ5FSB0&pd_rd_wg=0k7W6&pd_rd_r=3cbb90e6-11c0-4da6-9e6c-5eadd5dd7557&pd_rd_i=B00ECCZWWI&th=1

 

2. Test Tones: CD (not LP) this one, Amazing Bytes has 29 1/3 octave frequencies, individually selectable. two of them well priced available now.

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/7290000?ev=rb

 

3. Tripod, position meter at listening position, seated ear level

 

4. record results. I make enlarged copies of the booklet’s page, record the results. compare your initial, father’s initial will tell you something.

5. improve frequency balance, still using measurements.

5a. The Manual has specific information:

https://d2digq31msfd9c.cloudfront.net/uploads/manuals/Focus-SE-Manual-2021_opt.pdf

Pg 7, speaker placement

Pg 21: Bass Equalization

Pg 22: Built-In Fine Tuning (rear toggles switches): Treble: 0, -2db; Bass 0, -2db

5b. refine speaker location and toe-in, still using the meter. Distance from rear/side walls, toe-in;

5c. stuff rear port, what lost? what improved? If stuffed is best, then refine 5b.

5d. further adjustments:

1. preamp tone controls

2. preamp built in equalizer

3. external equalizer with bypass

Mine: dbx 2231: dual channel 31 1/3 octave frequencies; bypass; optional noise reduction.

https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/2231

1. Find a curve that the meter says is best
2. Find a curve that your ears say is best.

I am having a hearing test soon. At age 75, I am sure they will find something(s). After that, I can try using the equalizer without hearing aids. That’s just for me, not listening with you or others. Thus use bypass to get back to ‘normal’

Next, I may get hearing aids, who knows. What refinements when the hearing aids are in?

I bought this version of the DBX from Amazon (already in USA, returnable). Absolutely Identical. I needed XLR/RCA adapters, then I could use my existing cables

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NAK4BE8?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

 

 

 

@erik_squires no I am thinking you are right: there is for sure a bigger need to get the speakers and room mechanically properly tuned: I don't think ANY EQ or DSP would bring out what the speakers are properly capable.  Chances are all those things would do is create distortion somewhere else. 

@erik_squires that is EXACTLY what I was wondering, and you articulated all of it perfectly.  In my little living room space, at very normal levels (50-60db), you can still feel the weight of a guitar pluck from low to high strings, and feel metallic strikes, etc.  With his, you hear the note or the pluck....but that's it...you hear it's 'note', and nothing else.  You may 'hear' a finger drag along a string, but you don't feel the sound like on my system/room.  It's almost like I want to put a bunch of big subs everywhere to 'feel' notes/frequencies....not just bass.

That long delay time you mention I think is exactly what's happening.  There isn't 'reverb' or echo, but there is for certain mainly just empty cavern (mostly).  I want to remember watching a couple of well made videos with Darko and a guy in the states who were creating new listening spaces from the ground up, and dealing with this like this.  I'll try to find and re-watch them. 

He has his speakers VERY far from walls (I'm measuring exactly a bit later), but it's easily 6' from front wall, and 7' from side walls, with nearly nothing in the space from the chair forward. 

Room correction software won't help you much in highly reflecteive environments.  They are better for correcting bass problems, but you can adjust the bass just as well for you by any EQ, such as the Schiit Loki, but you won't fix the reflected sound problem and therefore distortion.

Morning @fthompson251 I sure can.  Integrated amp: Rega Ellicit Mk4.  CD Player & DAC: Rega Saturn.  Streamer: iFi Zen Stream.  Speaker wire: Deulund (12').  Turn table: Rega Planar 3. 

I am wondering about room correction software/hardware as well, and I know that Wavelet would be perfect especially for his over all system and room.  He does have some yellow insulation panels that I'll be testing out this weekend.  I was just hoping to get some baseline measurements and comparisons to baseline "what the Focus SE outputs WITHOUT room interaction, first.

It nearly sounds like (to me) that the two 12" woofers aren’t even running.

yeah, that’s a tell-tale sign. What’s happening is you have very long decay times in the mid-treble range due to the size of the room and highly reflective surfaces. As a result your speakers sound unbalanced tonally, plus the distortion-like effects. You can no longer hear details.

It is kind of like watching a movie with the audio out of sync with the video but here the delayed sound is now incoherent with the direct sound, and the more you turn up the volume the more of that delayed sound you’ll hear, especially in the midrange (Fletcher-Munsen curve).

With enough absorbers the details will emerge but so will the bass. That is, you’ll tonally change it so it’s less bright, more bass. Like taking all the veggies out of a stew, all you’ll be left with is the meat.

Alternatively, move the speakers and listening location as far from reflective surfaces as possible. Don’t forget the ceiling and floor as well for absorbers.

Can you list his system components?   An expensive yet excellent solution is the Legacy Wavelet II with room correction. Or possible a few acoustic panels on the side wall for early reflections at least? 

@erik_squires  and @mashif  thanks for the input on reflections.  I was wondering a little about that as well, but I discounted it because of the size of the room (to me) is huge vs the speakers in them.  You're right, if I stand near-inbetween the speakers I get a better full range of tones. The speakers are several feet away from boundaries and each other.  However, there really is very very little in 'furnishings; his listening room is a huge finished basement.  It doesn't 'echo' per-se, but it's not like a living room with lots to break up sound. 

Maybe the fatigue aggravation at mid to higher volume (65-70db) is the reflection distortion, and the complete lack of weight and bass is lack of room pressurization?  It nearly sounds like (to me) that the two 12" woofers aren't even running.  I've walked around the space and I can't find any stronger or weaker bass nodes, even along the walls (bare).  When I've done very crude measuring, there is an easy 20db difference from 80-110hz (full range sweep) with 100-120hz being a very prominent mountain peak.   

There are a host of reasons this sort of thing can occur and it usually is a combination of factors including, bad speaker design, defective driver, bad amp/speaker match and room acoustics. 

A peak at 100-130 Hz is going to make a system with what I call wet bass. I like my bass dry and always put a 2 dB notch there. What you describe is usually too much energy in the 2 kHz to 4 kHz region which makes a system difficult to listen to at volume and very sibilant. This is a very common room problem. 

Listening to a multidriver system near field is a very bad idea as you start to hear the individual drivers. If you want to get an idea what the speaker sounds like in an anechoic environment take it outside and place the speaker on a 5 foot ladder on soft ground. What a PITA that is. 

DEQX solves the problem by taking a very near field measurement of each driver at 6 inches then measurements from the listening position. From these measurements it can extrapolate what is due to the room and correct for just that and not the sound of the speaker which you do with EQ to taste. This is what your father's system needs, a DEQX Pre 8. Then he can make it sound however he likes. 

What @erik_squires said. Room reflections are distortion. 

The room is often the cause of such issues.  It can be the speakers, of course, but very often having a very reflective room causes it to sound distorting at higher volumes.  The reflections seem to overpower the direct signal.  Good way to test is to compare the listening experience at the normal location and listen also very close to the speakers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/amtproductions/53619694364/in/dateposted-public/Thanks for the ideas @carlsbad2 That is a great idea, but unfortunately I am visiting the folks on the other side of the country from where I live, so no go on narrowing the scientific method testing with the exact same gear (smart idea though).

I would imagine room dimensions and pressurization is a huge component as well, is that right, more in regard to the "feel" of notes/frequency reproduction? I honestly thought the woofers in his towers weren’t working from the way things sounded, and felt.

I need to read how to properly link or input images: I am massively screwing that up. Flickr apparently is a no-go?

My system:
Legacy Studio HD, Adcom 555 modified, Bel Canto DAC 2.8, Pioneer PD-65 CD player modified
Room 12x17x9, speakers along long wall, couch against back wall.