Jazz for aficionados
I see you put a smile in the text so I am assuming your being sarcastic about ancient tribal people on the Asian Continent being the root of jazz. I hope my assumption is correct... Anyway here are some tunes I know you will dig.... (1) Art Pepper Quartet (May 9, 1964) - Jazz Casual - YouTube (1) Frank Morgan Quartet performing LULLABY by George Cables. - YouTube (1) Dave Brubeck Trio spec. Guest Paul Desmond & Gerry Mulligan all the things you are - YouTube |
You are right and wrong about my post at the same time ...😊 It was a joke about three great artists i know about but i come here and in the classical thread to spoke about music...I did not know where to recommend them... Anybody know that jazz is born in America inheriting from black musicians ... Then there is no sarcasm about the real roots of jazz nor against asia... I read one day the history of a kazz musician who go back in Africa to rediscover his roots... this black american musician play some jazz to the Africans musicians... One of them say listening some jazz, it does not "roll"... Listening some other jazz pieces he said this time it "roll"... This surprized the american black jazzman but he begin to understand something about the universality of music... It "roll" or not...being it american jazz or african music or asian music... I assume that rolling mean a perfect spontaneous improvised integration between the beat,rythm,melody, harmony and the moving body of the players... For example this yoruba drumming "roll"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfnERafje58
jazz is universal as "rolling" is... This does not negate the black musicians geniuses who created it... Nor the asian one who "Jazz" in their own way... I like any style or genre when it "roll"... The Chopin mazurka are very difficult to play by a pianist... Very few are able to make these dances "rolling"...This one can... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLi2uwGOYBg&t=43s I love Chet Baker and sax Sadao Watanabe and Coleman Hawkins for example because it "roll" not because it is jazz : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO2RWWqZqOc
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@mahgister Not "roll". Proper is "swing" Did you like the tunes I posted for you? |
An awesome video breaking down the tenor sax duel between Soony Rollins and Sonny Stitt on the song The Eternal Triangle off of Dizzy Gillespie’s Sonny Side Up album. Hey @stuartk have youbeen alble to find a top level vinyl LP of it? (1) Reaction: Who won the tenor battle on The Eternal Triangle? - YouTube A shout out @frogman Where have you been?...I would like to hear from you about this topic or anything at all for that matter.... |
Three geniuses and more... Thanks my friend ... I dont know Frank Morgan , i will listen surely... These days i listen very much a big box album of Desmond, i appreciate his minimalistic "rolling"... 😊
I just come back from my bicycle...😊
i will correct you here if i may to precise my thinking... It is "rolling" that the africaqn master said not swinging... The diffrence is when you swing , there is a repeat beat most of the times that not vary continuously imposed by the melody in some case... When its "roll" the reference is not only to the balancing movement of the player body, but to his ability to improvise a CONTINUOUSLY transformative rythm who do not swing but who rolls one beat into another new one without end... It is why "rolling" expression can apply even to classical pianist interpretation as well as free jazz...There is no "swing" in Scriabin , or in a Persian master of tanbur, but as said the African master of african music there can be a "rolling" or not, if the pianist can integrate spontaneously and without discontibnuities , the melody, the rythm , the harmony in one complex "roll" through his hands and body ... If the African master had means swingibng , i will had never remember this anecdote... I was stunned by the African master understanding as was the American jazz musician who learn from him... I dont remember who it was i read that decades ago... |
Frogman wrote to me when i came back here ... But i never read another post of him here for long... We need him... I hope that he is not ill... I guess he is not young as i am no more too...
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Thanks @mahgister for defining roll. Have you watched the "duel of the sonny's"? I know you like classical music and here is a reply to the "duel of the sonny's" from another classical student/listener...
@bobpremecz5429One of the things to remember, Stitt was 33 at the time of this recording while Rollins was only 27 giving the young Turk even more incentive to bring his "A" game. What enthusiasm presenting this classic breakdown of the tenor battle on the tune "Eternal Triangle". You helped me see how both had their own ways of interpreting the changes and made clear the use of their "go to" licks and tricks. As one who had classic training, seeing this helped me recognize how even classical composers shared/borrowed some of the ideas these two giants set down for all to hear, appreciate and even analyze. Tractor noises, who cares when you end up with what you posted. |
Yes i remember this album between Stitt and Rollins ... I loved it.... You remind me to listen to it anew... The only reason i did not listen to it for a long time is the limit of my dac bank music files...It does not contains all my musical files but only a fraction , less than 1/2 giga byte... I use this dac bank because i am off the grid with my battery dac and the sound quality is better than when i was using my computer memory as bank...
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Lucky you! And my wife and I love Quebec -- especially the Charlevois region. As it happens, my Boucher acoustic guitar is built in the province.
OK. I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand what the term means. Reading your descriptions, Elvin Jones happened to be the first artist that sprang to mind.
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No, you are absolutely right... I remember as yesterday memory because Jones impacted me a lot and at this times at 20 and yet i regarded jazz as inferior to classical music ... i lacked musical education at 20 and i am not alas! a musician ... 😊 now i loved jazz as much as classical...And any traditional music in the world...
But to my surprize at 20, Jones dont put easy previsible beats to express his virtuosity, as many drummers with no genius would, instead he demonstrated his musical understanding of the "rolling" into ONE of all musical aspects in his gesturing.... It was the first time in my life i encounter a really great musician...
He was able to make music "roll"... not rock n and roll AT ALL.... Only subtles variations improvised with the highest artistry... But as i said rolling is not about a repeateable swing or beat, it is the way the musician creative gesture improvise on the spot by expressive necessity ... Keith Jarrett "roll" his improvisation at Koln concert in one masterpiece for example ... "rolling" is the integration of melody, rythms, harmonies, IMPROVISING playing micro tonal gestures in ONE single expressive event ... For example in classical there is difference when some pianist play a piece with no understanding but only perfect reproduction ,or high virtuosity and some others who are able to improvise a real EXPRESSIVE felt interpretation... When the music "roll" it is beyond perfection or imperfection , it is living... There is no relation with any musical genre, the african master who tell about "rolling music" to the american black jazzman , does not spoke about african music nor about jazz, it is the way i understood it... A japanese musician playing koto can roll or not...The African master express a universal truth about playing...
" Roll" mean a SPIRAL integrating every aspect of music and sound in one musical gesture... It is IMPREVISIBLE.... Coleman Hawkins know how to "roll" and Sofronitsky playing Scriabin knows too... And pygmies songs "roll"... The last interpretation of choral music i hear and which was "rolling" is Schutz Geistliche Chormusik by Mauesberger... The chorus roll as pygmies singing... Miraculous so much i listen to it really 1000 times in the last 35 years...
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It is my Bill Evans day... i listen to him non stop on my computer with a very good small dac by Hifimedy and my self powered M-audio AV40 low cost desktop speakers optimized speakers in my "acoustically installed " dedicated corner, i can assure you that Bill Evans "roll" so much well , it is impossible to stop listening him...( and yes a listening on 100 bucks well optimized speakers can almost be audiophile experience they must delivered basic good upper bass for sure for piano listening but my M-audio is the model with a very good bass boost with no distortion , i used diffusion and absorption and a three pieces foldable screen as an acoustic tool and some shungite and quartz on the speakers😁) He is not a great jazz pianist, there is many others i loved very much, he is one of the greatest i ever listen to , not because he plays better, some plays more virtuoso than him , but no other roll so much well... He is humble and music dedicated as the late Chet Baker was... The way he play cannot be taught, you feel the "rolling" in ONE or not.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI8zUgR8czI&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_A1sxJ9O8sIpxKOTsGoe_Ya&index=12 |
Ah, OK -- I think I get it, now. Thanks for the further explanation. When I listen to Evans, I tend to get so caught up in the emotional expression that other concerns (technique included) simply recede into the background. I suppose his lyrical approach may strike some as overly feminine/lacking in masculine fire /vigor but I'm not one of those. Are you familiar with Michele Petrucciani? He made no secret of the fact that he was strongly influenced by Evans, but he is more playful, more outgoing, more overtly passionate player, with no shortage of technique. A marvelous musician. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFvAmN3Vp7w I particularly like "The Complete Concert In Germany", which I could not find here but was able to purchase in Paris. It does not seem to be available on Youtube, currently.
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I will try it because you recommended it... 😊 I discovered all music slowly in my life journey ...From classical first to world music and jazz last... Jazz has an enormous output of works... I listen obsessively....Attached to some players way more than to others which are great musiciand too ...But the heart dont "think" before loving.... I never really listen to Petrucciani... I will...
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Hello fellow Jazz aficionados. All is well and thank you for your concern. It’s been an insanely busy time work wise and while I have not posted I have followed the thread more than casually. On the subject of tenor players. For whatever it may be worth to any one listener, among players, Coltrane, Rollins and Henderson are considered to be the three greatest (most influential) modern tenor players. Sonny Rollins was an amazing improviser who pioneered the use of the harmony instrument (piano/guitar)-less rhythm section. He was one of the few players who could pull this off due to his remarkable command of harmony. This allowed the listener to hear and follow the harmonic progression of a tune….if only “suggested” by his improvisations. Even more importantly he possessed a remarkable rhythmic musical presence. The feeling of even very good Jazz performances is that of the soloist playing TO the rhythmic pulse (groove) laid down by the rhythm section. When one listens to Rollins the feeling is that it is Rollins who is the rhythmic center of gravity, Remarkable, Interesting comments about intonation. Manipulation of intonation can be a great expressive tool; although some players simply have bad intonation. Jackie Maclean is a great example of a player who played so sharp (above the reference pitch) that it can be uncomfortable to listen to. Eric Dolphy, on the other hand, used idiosyncratic intonation of certain notes for great expressive effect. It is also important to not confuse playing “outside” the harmony of a tune and its resulting dissonance with bad intonation. |
Interesting. . . It's Dolphy that I find consistently "uncomfortable". I don't have that experience with any of the half dozen or so McLean recordings in my collection. You've piqued my curiosity. Can you suggest a particularly "uncomfortable" McLean performance? I'd be curious to hear it.
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@frogman Welcome back. Its good to know you are ok and still with us. Your first post in a while is once again very informative for an avid jazz listener who is not a schooled and working musician such as myself. Re Sonny Rollins: I understand what you are saying about Sonny's harmonic prowess and I think this is why I have such a great experience whenever I listen to any of his music. Btw, his new biography is incredible so far. Its not just about him but all of the great musicians he knew, played with, or recorded with. Saxophone Colossus - The Life and Music of Sonny Rollins could have had more subtitles such as growing up in Harlem during the Harlem Renaissance, The jazz artists substance addictions and following death, obscurity (great unknown artists whom addiction destroyed), substance abuse recovery , racial tensions in the USA (and not just in the south), Jim Crowe states, the music industry (recording co./labels) and on and on.... That 1957 Village Vanguard recording sans piano is a great example of Sonny's command of harmonic structure and also I like his command of playing bebop chords within the songs harmonic/melodic foundation chords. Your points on Jackie Mac and Dolphy are appreciated as well.
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@stuartk , re Donald Byrd, is it the link pjw posted that you do not like, or his music in general? Just in case, few well known pieces...
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Thanks for this unknown Shaw in my personal country....
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It is frogman who recommended me Woodie Shaw 2 years ago ...😊 he is with Louis Armstrong and Chet Baker my three favorite trumpet of all times... Very different musicians... I discovered many albums but i listen till now not to all of them...😁
This album real title is : "in my own sweet way".... Not "the organ grinder " which is the title of one of the song.... |
You’re welcome! If I could listen to one trumpet player, it would be Woody Shaw. Fortunately, there are many recordings by him to enjoy. Jazz that focuses mostly on rhythmic vamps without the addition of strong melodic content tends not to hold my attention. On that D. Byrd recording, what I hear is mostly groove and "atmospheric" colors. Or, if you prefer, It simply doesn’t speak to me.
RE: the samples: The first I like best. The second is cool-- very Bluesy. I have to be in the right mood but for that mood, I dig it. I don’t consider it Jazz, so I don’t bring the same expectations to it as a listener as I do Jazz. I prefer Richie Havens’ version of the third tune. I’m not big on choirs/massed voices, in general. |
@stuartk, just about any Jackie McLean recording is an example of his tendency to play very sharp. I’m in no way suggesting that this is a deal breaker for me, nor that it should be for anyone else. It is just that I personally find it annoying at times. He was a great hard bop player who had a lot to say musically. Some listeners are more sensitive to, or concerned about intonation issues than others. In answer to your question, just about any of his recordings are good examples of what I refer to. This is the first one that came up when I searched Jackie Mac on YouTube. He is very sharp. Notice how, on the first tune, the piano (as usual) sets a pitch (intonation) baseline. Jackie comes in and he is on a different pitch “plane” than that established by the piano. Notice how when Bill Hardman comes in on trumpet after Jackie plays how there is a sense of relaxation because his general pitch falls back in line with that of the piano. Jackie’s is considerably higher. This creates a sense of tension that is musically uncomfortable (for me). There are many references on line to this tendency of Jackie’s if you search “Jackie McLean intonation sharp”. My point about Dolphy was that, for me, Dolphy’s manipulation of pitch was deliberate and an expressive technique. Also, he often played “outside” the harmony of the tune. This can be confused with playing out of tune because of the dissonance that playing outside any given chord’ s harmonic envelop creates. Two different things entirely. On the subject of Woody Shaw. I have posted this at least twice before. One of my favorite records with some of my favorite Woody Shaw. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nqeyHFph6j7oela51Da3lb7b-OemqwN6M |
I am a big Jackie McLean fan. 4 of his albums are on my desert island list and I believe every jazz aficionado should have these 4 in their collection. Here they are in order of their respective recording date. Bluesnik 1961 Let Freedom Ring 1962 One Step Beyond 1963 (April) Destination Out! 1963 (September) That being said I myself can hear the slightly (to my ears) sharper pitch McLeans alto sounds then many of the other alto greats. It is reasonable to say that if I had a long career in music playing in a music ensemble, small or large, jazz or classical, this subtly sharper playing would become more of an annoyance especially if it is not in harmony with the melodic chords the rest of the band is playing. A small jazz ensemble comparison example showcasing the alto saxophones of McLean followed by Phil Woods:
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Speaking of alto sax players and obscure/unrecognized musicians such as J R Moterose, I think you can put alto sax player John Handy in both of those categories. I really enjoy a lot of Handy's albums as a leader, and his playing on various Charles Mingus session dates. One of his albums, Live at Monterey Jazz Festival, is on my desert island list. The release with the 3rd bonus track Ole Miss (Anatomy of a Riot) Live at the Village Gate is the one to get. The two songs from Monterey (1) John Handy - Monterey Jazz Fest (Full Album) - YouTube Bonus track at Village Gate (1) John Handy Tears Of Ole Miss Live At Monterey Jazz Festival - YouTube And a nice blues track featuring Handy (not to bad) on vocals (1) Blues For Louis Jordan - YouTube And Handy expanding his horizons with Asian Continent musicians @mahgister may enjoy this album which features Handy on the alto sax combined with 2 eastern musicians playing the string instruments Sarod and Tanpura with a 3rd playing the percussive instrument Tabla. (1) John Handy, Ali Akbar Khan - Karuna Supreme (full album) - YouTube
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OK -- it only takes seconds to hear the difference. I like both but when listening to McLean, I'm not focused on his intonation, wishing it were less sharp. A poorly intonated guitar can drive me nuts but I don't have perfect pitch. On the other hand, for me, Dolphy's playing is akin to taking a swig of milk only to realize someone's spiked it with vinegar. I find it fundamentally unpleasant. For McLean, I enjoy: "Left Alone '86" (w/ Mal Waldron), "Jacknife", "Let Freedom Ring", "Dynasty", "It's Time", "Action" and "Consequence".
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OK... more on intonation. When the guitar player on that Handy Monterey album plays two notes that are "rubbing up against one-another" in a blatantly out-of-tune fashion at around 13:36, my ears/brain instantly rebel. I like "Karuna Supreme" a lot. Might have to buy that one. Charlie Mariano was another who shared Handy’s fascination with Indian music. The LA Jazz station I listened to in the mid 70’s used to play "Hard Work". I’ve heard worse worse singing than Handy’s on "Blues for Louis Jordan". Nice sax playing on that track. I’ve always enjoyed the Blues. |
Wow !
I listened this album long time ago...It is a masterpiece...
It is masterful fusion...
Ali Akbar Khan is a legend...And Handy know it and he got it.... Great musician... I dont like fusion so much by the way... This album is an exception... ( i must be a purist or a snob ) 😊 Indian and persian music are very sophisticated music and my favorite... On par with jazz... Thanks I must now look for Monterose and this one... At all cost... But i just upgrade and bought today a 1000 dollars amplifier servant for my King K340 or a pre-amp for his servant Sansui... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGkMVdKxEY
My wife will kill me for any album this week...She manage the books not me... 😁
I just finished my acoustic corner in the basement with cheap but good small self powered box... The sound quality of these little box was unknown to me and i bought them 12 years ago... Why ? it is the first time i dedicated an acoustic location for them... Audiophiles who throw too much money are deluded, ACOUSTIC is queen... I listen to these speakers for all all your suggestion ... And believe it or not i dont regret now any of my past way better speakers... Why ? ACOUSTIC...I learned about acoustic in the last 7 years... I never listened to my Tannoy in a real optimal acoustic... People will think that i am a fool because i prefer my 100 bucks little box to my legendary Tannoy... People dont undertstand the power of acoustic... It is easy to decipher across all audio thread...
Anyway the gear serve music not the opposite... With acoustic optimization less may be better... 😁 |
To thank you all , a masterpiece you probably dont know... 😊 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvMGE9xzT8&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_A1sxJ9O8sIpxKOTsGoe_Ya&index=33 |
I like this... and it’s reasonably affordable on CD, no less. Thanks, @mahgister ! Any chance you might list some other Japanese Jazz CDs you like? |
There is many very refined musician in Japan....I love them all... 😊
Eiji Kitamura clarinet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dtkyv5SR6I&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_A1sxJ9O8sIpxKOTsGoe_Ya&index=25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irllT_v6uuU&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_A1sxJ9O8sIpxKOTsGoe_Ya&index=26 |
