Here’s the science of it, in an alternate scientific path. The devices in the article have been proven to be functional by 6 different organizations, including NASA (repeatedly!), and the Chinese have confirmed it’s function in space. FYI, just so you know, the Chinese have taken this so seriously, they are moving to dominate space, period. Ie, the half trillion dollar level of pressure over the next few (3-5) years. It’s true. Start looking. The space race is on. Hard core, full bore. Tools that are functional have become available. Enabling has become real. Land Ho! (Just in case you’ve been sleeping. The vast number of humans are) Mars in 20-40 days, no notable (spacecraft) mass restrictions. Pluto in less than 200 days, in the same spacecraft. 300k-400k/km/h and higher, kinda thing. Looks very probable. Thorium reactor, a couple of megawatts for the drive.... and you’re off....(I can't imagine micro meteorite impacts at those speeds!) The article incidentally provides scientific connection to the borderline 100% reality of the function of the Blackbody device, via explaining the reality of the devices in the article. The proposed EM drive. It involves, unruh radiation, blackbody radiation effects, and the quantitization of inertia. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.03449.pdf I’m not talking about the efficacy of such things in audio systems, just the science. The efficacy is a personal thing, a personal choice and understanding. The science is looking to be very very real. |
I enjoy very much trying audio tweaks, lets face it, some of them work and add to the experience, and it's fun to "play" with it! Heck, with some of the audio gear costing so much money, where is the harm in having some fun and maybe improving your enjoyment without spending a fortune! That said, when it comes to the blackbody, I purchased two of them......and this was not an inexpensive tweak, so I expected some bang for my buck. To be honest, I moved them around, tried placing them in different positions, and just could not feel comfortable about keeping them. I think they do something, and probably more or less of something depending on the system, but, they were not worthy of being kept in my system! If others have had positive results with them, all the power to you and enjoy! |
Mcondon, I tend to agree with you about the flimsy nature of the scientific basis for these products. I read the Lessloss description of the Blackbodies and was thoroughly unimpressed. I can see how the technological nature of the discussion would prove impressive to many audiophiles. A lot of conceptualization with little evidence that an audible change would result. A half hour of intense listening to Blackbodies in and out of a system convinced me I wasn't going to spend any more time on them. Even if they did *something* it was so insipid that it wouldn't be worth my time. One can get a far greater benefit by swapping a pair of interconnects, imo. I am not anti-tweak in my perspective, but I demand that a product pass what I call my Law of Efficacy; it has to make a significant, immediate, easily discernible, repeatable difference - to the casual listener as well as the audiophile. One "tweak" which has consistently passed the Law of Efficacy is treatment of CDs. Though there is debate over the proposed benefit from a technological/scientific standpoint, the result audibly is clear, and so I treat every disc. The second you think, "Well, there MAY be a difference," or "... I don't care for the sound, but I'll have to let it break in for a few weeks," or "... wait, let's try placing them here (after the third time)," the product is unworthy of consideration regardless of price. That is, if your goal is to eschew marginal improvements in favor of major improvements to the rig. The ART system demoed for me at RMAF the and Blackbodies both failed such simple testing. I wrote "nearly" instead of "clearly" as I have not used every tweak out there and there is a (perhaps remote) possibility that some technologically driven tweak guru has developed a seriously beneficial product. I try to base my conclusions on products I have heard versus those which I think cannot be beneficial, that precludes making a universal statement about them all being ineffectual. |
At this point, any time an audio manufacturer claims to be run by a "physicist", as does Lessloss, I know somebody is trying to separate me from as much of money as possible. I have owned Lessloss interconnects and a Synergistic Research power conditioner. Both were mediocre at best. And both companies are run by "physicists". I have yet to find an academic paper authored by any of the physicists who run Lessloss, Synergistic Research, or Bybee. I am also still looking for a reference to "quantum tunneling" (as performed by Synergistic Research) in Richard Feynman's books and lectures on quantum mechanics. |
Toymanmark I am not being unfair. If you or anyone else has purchased and find value in the Blackbody, then great! I think that is wonderful and wish you listening pleasure and happiness with as many as you can afford to purchase. Everyone in this forum is free to make that determination for any of their components or "tweaks" - indeed, one could argue that is the main purpose of the Audiogon forum. But I have not participated in this thread because I have listened to the Blackbody or really even care about whether or not this device really works, if it is a high priced placebo (my impression), or the worst of the worst in overpriced, snake oil quackery (a possibility). No, I only continue to participate in this thread, because I care about the integrity of the Audiogon forum. Because in my opinion it is generally a great community of enthusiasts who are willing to help others interested in our hobby. And because I care about this Audiogon community, I dont like to see threads which are obviously corrupt, where dealers or manufacturers make up posts, fail to disclose their commercial affiliations, stuff (or have their friends or affiliates stuff) the ballot box, or masquerade as friendly, helpful audiophiles with no commercial agenda when in fact they are really just shamelesly promoting their products. Worse, when they do this sloppily in such a way as to arouse suspicion from multiple participants, because not only is it dishonest, but it is arrogant and offensive, and exacerbates what might already be a rip off. PT Barnum said "there is a sucker born every minute" which means he might have been a successful manufacturer of cables or tweaks. For the record, I have been buying and experimenting for cables and tweaks for about 30 years now, or since I was a freshman in high school, where I used the proceeds of mowing lawns and delivering newspapers to buy my first pair of Magneplanars, Hafler amps and a Kenwood KD 500, which was tweaked and modified with an SME III arm, a Grado signature cartridge, an Orsonics record clamp, anti resonant putty stuck to the underside of the platter, and one of the first sorbathane accessory mats. So I am not being stubbornly scientific in my objections here. Again, I hope you are being sincere and if so, I wish you the best with multiple Blackbodys. For you or anyone who finds them useful, I bet they would be equally helpful with all of your televisions and home theatre equipment, your car stereo, and if used in the kitchen, would probably also improve the taste of your food and wine. Whatever the case, I would like to thank everyone in this thread who takes time from their day(s) to be an honest, non professional audio enthusiast, who tries to help inform others, help beginners get started, and advance our hobby with no professional bias or affiliations. Regards, |
Cwlondon, It is also unfair when you discover a product that you do not share your findings with others. Especially one that makes such a large impact on your system. As to what it costs to build I can not speak. But for the retail price I found the Blackbody to be an excellent bargain for what it brought to my system. You should judge for yourself and there is a good chance you may be making your own infomercial. For the record I just met Louis less than two weeks ago. |
Aaapers I am not disappointed, and if you are a sincere enthusiast, you have my apology. But to be clear, I have not yet knocked, or indeed even commented on the Blackbody device, as I have no experience with it. For the record, my impression is that in a double blind, AB comparison, the Blackbody would make even a Tice Clock or a Shakti stone look like bargain priced tweaks with state of the art engineering. But that is another matter. What I have commented on, however, is the obvious corruption of this thread by people who are presumably affiliated with the manufacturer. They have appeared to both me and other long time Audiogon participants to have been stuffing the ballot box with glowing reviews of this expensive, and if I were betting in Vegas a spectacularly high margin, audaciously promoted device. As someone who values the enthusiasm, intelligence and generally high integrity of this forum, I do not react well to thinly veiled infomercials. It is not only unfair to people who are seeking honest advice, but worse, it is arrogant and condescending. Regards, cwlondon |
"CWLONDON",I am afraid I will have to disapoint you. I am not a shill and you may check with Audiogon regarding my email address over the years which precede the appearance of Lessloss. I would also be happy to talk with you if you are interested. Just send me a private email with your number. Also, you may be happy to know that apparently, the LessLoss products will be carried by a vendor in the states. Therefore, you or someone you know may actually be able to hear the Blackbody in action. I simply hold that you should judge for yourself but you should at least audition the product you are trying to knock. |
"I post very infrequently." Why would anyone with honest intent and unbaised participation in these forums need to defend the number and authenticity of their posts? In my opinion, because they are yet another shill. It's rings a little bit of "I'll be honest with you...or Let's be honest" which of course is the refrain only of people who are not always honest. cwlondon Audio Enthusiast Since 1978 No Agenda |
The Blackbody is for real. I post very infrequently but you should be able to find comments from me over 5 years back. I admit the cost is steep and since I have a mid level system I am reluctant to go whole hog and buy a number of these products. But even within my financial and system limitations I find it of great value. If I could paraphrase what I think it does I would have to say that it acts as a full spectrum filter for RFI and EMI. I think that it is the transformation of those noise elements that allows you to hear a more natural rendition of the music. If you can afford it and are not concerned about justifying a purchase to a significant other, I would recommend that you try it. In fact if you have a number of audiophile friends or an organized audio group, it might be a good idea to audition one of these baby's as a group. I am sure the collective judgement of a relatively experienced group would be enlightening for all. Al |
Mingles, I did reread above and you are right there was not any bashing it just seemed to be headed that way. The Blackbody's made such a big improvement. I just think everyone should be able to listen to these in there own systems. Here is a trusted source I know that sells right here on Audiogon. He just had the Blackbody's in his system. Give Jeff a call or email him at avsolutionsca.com. Mingles, do not worry you will not get sucked into the black hole with these. Just give them a listen. |
Lessloss does not deserve the bashing above.Toymanmark, I don't believe anyone is bashing Lessloss here. The only thing that happened is Cwlondon noticed 7 new members came out of the woodwork to give testimony to this product. They have no prior history on Audiogon and/or they've only commented on Lessloss products. I noticed the same thing happened last year. I wouldn't call that bashing. I'd call it observation. |
I only met Louis Motek from Lessloss three days ago @ an audio Friends home along with 3 other guys from our audio club. We also had a reviewer there as well from Stereo Times. We got to listen to the Lessloss signature power cords and the Blackbody. Both of these products worked very well. My review is below mainly about the Blackbody. Lessloss does not deserve the bashing above. Instead they should be commended for paving the way for us to get closer to the sound of live music. We first put in 6 signature power cords. 1 on the Meridian 861-preamp 1 on the Marantz UD 9004-source 2 on the Vacuum State mono tube amps 2 on the sub portion of the Avantgarde Duo's This was a very large change. This went from a very hard to listen to system to very smooth and open. But the problem was the only good power cables in the set up were the Virtual Dynamics Master power cables on Source and the Avantgarde subs. All other power cables were just better than stock power cables. This left little time to spend quality time with the Blackbody. But we put just one Blackbody on the source and immediately there was an obvious change in the sound that everybody could easily hear. The depth in sound stage and ambient information stood out for me. But something was not quite right maybe a little brighter and thinner. I believe that maybe it started to reveal other issues in the system. I do know there is a ton of other equipment in this system with all the automation and theater gear. The dedicated lines are not hooked up yet. Still through all this I heard great potential but the evening ended. I do wish we had more time to figure the issues out. The good news was Louis agreed to bring the Lessloss Blackbody to my home for us to play with the next day. The next day we had decent time to listen to some music and the Blackbody. My system is tweaked out to the max and is very revealing of any change. First we put 1 Blackbody 4 inches away facing the side of the MBL 1621 Transport. I was not prepared for this change and it was within just the first few seconds of listening. The best way that I could describe the sound was the same if you ever listen to your system late at knight as apposed to the middle of the day. Just cleaner with more sense of space. We then put a second one facing the other side of the MBL 1621 Transport. A bit more of that same quality came through. We then added two more 1 each facing the side of the Mark Levinson No33 mono amps. I had my mind set thinking it was going to get brighter and more detailed. But the sound just filled out more with a more relaxed presentation. What I mean is the quite spots between notes filled in with ambient information and just gave me a better sense of the space the music was recorded in. Next we put two more one on top of each speaker facing down right where the voice coil of the top mid range would be. This was the largest improvement yet, thou this just could have been because it was last. The overall presentation became much more cohesive. The other thing that really stood out was the depth of the sound stage went much deeper than I have ever heard before. The sound was much more 3D. We put a couple more facing the already treated side of the Mark Levinson No33 side of the amps. I noted a little improvement maybe with a little more moving around of these Blackbody boxes i am sure we could have made more improvement . But in my simple system I think six was the magic number. I will eventually get six of these things but business is slow right now. I will probably buy just one at a time as money allows. This was just as big of a change if not larger than any tweak I have done this far. Then again it could be because it was the last tweak that I did. For me in my audio system the money for the Lessloss Blackbody is well worth the investment. Thank you Louis for pioneering the way of audio. |
A similar phenomena happened a year ago in this forum: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1246375714 An interesting comment was made by someone in that thread: 07-31-09: Jp1208 |
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Cwlondon, good eye. I just went through the posts and verified what you point out. The writing looks similar too. If it's the same person, using the same computer, Audiogon would see the same IP address for 6 or more members. Maybe they don't have time to police the forums on that level. Then again, the company behind the product advertises on this site, so maybe they don't care. |
Having stumbled into this fascinating debate, I am willing to consider the benefits of this device, but in the spirit of objective analysis, I notice the following: For 1) "C breaks", 2) "Bazza", 3) "Variety", 4) "Rezabib", 5) "Stani", and 6) "Burningpanda" I notice that for all six of these seeminlgy unbiased, friendly and helpful Audiogon participants, their gushing testimonials are THEIR ONLY POST on the forum. This is in sharp contrast to the skeptics who are well known to anyone who has spent time on this forum, and some of whom have been participating for years. "Dietcrush" has two posts, yet both, or 100%, are praising this manufacturers products. "VVW" also scores higher credibility with his staggering output of two posts, but nonetheless a full 50% of his written efforts devoted to praising this company's products. SHILL, anyone? Can you say "stuffing the ballot box"? How about "CHUTZPAH"? This thing makes Shakti stones look like the all time bargain in the history of high end audio. As for the slightly more credible sounding Mr Weber, to my ears, his posts have joint venture/revenue sharing written all over them. Regards, |
I thought I would update my initial impression of the Blackbody units I commented on from 3/17/10. I would like to confirm the reviews recently posted on 6moons. I had repositioned the units to face North through my amps, DAC, and transport with marked improvement. I noted even less harshness in the music, more defined base, and a greater sense of the space in which the music was recorded. There was a more relaxed, natural feel to the music. More recently, I had the privilege of participating in a trial addition of more Blackbody units to see if " the more the better" was true. To get the best sound is truly a trial and error process. I first added a 2nd unit to the DAC again facing North. To my amazement, there was a very noticeable change in the music for the better. I have a Lessloss Firewall positioned in a North/South plane. I pointed a Blackbody, again facing North, at the end of the Firewall. I couldn't believe the improvement I heard! I tried a 2nd Blackbody on the Firewall and again noted a change, but the effect was not for the better. In fact the sound, although very smooth, seemed thinner. I added a 3rd Blackbody to the DAC with more improvement, although not as great as with the 2nd. I tried adding a 2nd Blackbody to the transport with a slight improvement. In total I added 4 units bringing the total to 10. I next subtracted 2 units, one from the transport and one from the DAC and placed a 2nd unit on each mono-amp. I really like the sound with this combination!!!! The music just locked in! Dynamic, clear, pure, detailed, natural, spacious, just a joy to listen to. The music was so smooth I tried turning it up pretty loud. The result was a really visceral experience without hurting my ears or giving me a headache. I just can't believe I'm getting this kind of music out of my 14 year old speakers and amps. I now own 10 units. I purchased them on the spot. In summary, I have one on the transport, two on the DAC, one on the Firewall, two on each amp and two on top of each speaker pointing down (I couldn't position the speaker Blackbodies North). The sound is amazing. I have upgraded my system numerous times since I became an audiophile in 1995. I have never had such an improved sound with upgrades as I have experienced with the Lessloss products. I am looking forward to the "Tunnelbridge." |
Dear all, thank you for the nice response concerning my showroom. Regarding the PC: I run xxhighend (www.xxhighend.nl) as a software memory player. The PC is a tweaked laptop with 1TB harddrive and no other services but music. All USB, WIFI and Ethernet is shut down. I will design a proper power supply soon for this(linear regulation no switching anymore) I have 4 Steinmusic H2 (two variant A and two variant B) in the showroom. I think the Lessloss BB is better in optimazing the "tone colours" or "secondary harmonics" whereas the H2 are phenomenal in improving the soundstage. In general both improve a lot and I would not like to remove one item. The steinmusic effect is adjustable by a pot. Be careful: Too much is too much and the sound is a little artificial then. The Lessloss performance increases and increases when you add another BB. Until now I have not seen the limit of BB units where you say whne adding another one it is not an improvement or even worse it is too much of the BB. I hope this helps. Best regards Rainer |
Its only about 10% of a $60,000 system, reasonable tweak territory I would say. I think there are probably more than a few of those out there. IS it the most effective way to spend that 10%? HEy if you have those kind of bucks, who cares? Let's do our best to keep this thread from getting wished into the cornfield! |
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Dear all, my I introduce myself? My name is Rainer Weber and I am the Technical Director of Kaiser Acoustics (see www.kaiser-acoustics.com). Maybe you have noticed the Kawero! speakers we produce at RMAF or CES. My system consist of the following items: Oyaide Power distribution block Echole Cables VertexAQ Platforms and Power Conditioners Holger Stein (www.steinmusic.de) tuning feet and auxillaries GTE Trinity DAC and AMP Weiss Vesta Firewire to SP/DIF converter xxhighend software dedicated music PC Mastersound 845 Monobloacks signature edition Absolare Pure Tube preamp Kuzma Stabi XL4 with 4point arm My Sonic Lab cartridge Kaiser Kawero speaker and a lot of room acoustic treatment. You can see a pic on our webpage (I have to update to a recent one) Meanwhile I have 7 Blackbodies in the system. The work fantastic and I have to admitt that even the step from 6 to 7 is very cleary audible. In my system they work very well in the vicinity of the power section of the devices I use. Also near the power distribution block is a very good place to set it. Even on top of our external tweeter housing (made from very rigid and inert bullet proof "tankwood" the improvement was audible. I removed it here because of design issues. With 7 BB I achieve now a more equally improvement, that means just moving one BB does not completly disturb the effects: Coming to the effects: -Better timing -Better transients -More Clarity -Less shouting on high volumes -No loss of staging, articulation and involvement on lower levels - sound stage is incredible increased in the depth and has very solid focus in the depth All this is typical for less RFI and EMI interference. Everybody who wants to listen to the system and the Blackbodies is welcome to visit me in Regensburg/Germany. Best regards Rainer Weber |
can someone explain in summary form WHY they work? i can understand why everything, except bybee devices, work. (incidentally, i find the explanation for why bybee's work to be comical. nevertheless, i'm using 6 in my system, as they do). i do not wish to rely on manufacturer copy. creates the audio equivalent of 'stockholm syndrome' for those already afflicted w/ audiophilia nervosa. |
I purchased and installed 2 of these wonderful devices and was immediately struck by the new level of spaciousness and clarity imparted to my system. A skeptic 'friend' (who still foolishly claims he can't hear my Pear Anjou speaker cables)asked me to close my eyes and judge when the blackbodies were removed and replaced. Of course i could not tell because his negative energy completely swamped my system! Double blind testing be damned! I have ordered 3rd which i shall mount over the listening position so it can affect the ambient fields of my body. Thankyou Lessloss |
This thread and the impressions posted are truly interesting. I am shocked that some people have bought 3,4,5,6 of them. At a cost of $1000 each this adds up to quite an investment. You would think that that extra cash would make a bigger improvement going into a real equipment upgrade. Unless of course those systems are already at that $40-50K price point already and this is just icing. Still, not an insignificant amount of money for each black box. There's lots of products being offered these days that seem to address these "quantum" effects. Some are fairly cheap and some are fairly expensive. All seem to do something positive for the sound (based on first hand reports) and all can't truly explain what is really happening. It's a leap of faith or, in the best world, an experience that you can hear for yourself before judging whether the cost justifies the change. For $25-100 I can make that leap of faith. For $1000 I would need to hear it for myself first. |
Khkenny, There is some truth in what you say but I don't think that is how these things are advertised to work. They supposedly address EM noise problems but in a different manner than say Mu Metal, according to the vendor site. I don't see any claims to effect how the room resonates per se. How it accomplishes any of this is shrouded in mystery, so I suppose anything or nothing is possible. One question. All devices have a limited lifespan. How do you know when a Blackbody is working and when it is not? I suppose you have to rely on your ears telling you? |
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