In my quest for power cords, i have noticed that a longer cord say 6 or 8 feet tends to have a nicer sound in my system that the same models that are 3 or 4 feet. Power cords i have found this to be true include Cerious Tech, Cardas, and VH Audio....anyone have an explanation?
AND by nicer sound I mean they tend to have a richer midrange, and a more coherent top to bottom presentation.
"...if, as you stated, there was a reduced brightness in the longer Van Den Hul cord, how would one explain that same tendency in cords that feature no 'filtering' of any kind? The answer is in the inductance and capacitance factors that result from increased length.
"...A properly designed PC should be resistant to noise, but if the changes in sonics we're hearing are strictly from filtering out that noise, then where are the measurements to back up that idea?
"...IMO, RLC factors rule the roost when it comes to PC sonics."
The RLC factors themselves constitute a filter. All cables have RLC factors of course (including all the miles of it leading to the house), so all cords must act as filters in some way, but not all cords intentionally strive to arrange the factors so that the cord constitutes an effective filter for significantly reducing noise from the AC powerline. But that filtration effect, if so designed, is what reduces the noise (other than induced noise which is reduced by the shielding). That these RLC factors, and hence the degree of filtering, and hence the degree of noise reduction, will all be greater the longer the cord, is exactly what vdH posits for their particular cord, and is why they won't sell a 1m version. I own another variety of cord, not purported to act as a powerline filter, that do not affect the sound in the way your adjectives suggest, but instead tends to make it brighter sounding, among other qualities. However, whether this cord becomes mellower in longer lengths is something I do not know -- maybe just the opposite happens. Bottom line -- although I find your contentions somewhat obvious while also a bit self-contradictory in some details -- I don't think we fundamentally disagree here: Whatever a given cord does, a longer one will probably do more of it, and this could be either a good or a bad thing.
The adjectives I used, though fairly broad and basic, were chosen because that's my experience with the vast majority of PC's. So if, as you stated, there was a reduced brightness in the longer Van Den Hul cord, how would one explain that same tendency in cords that feature no 'filtering' of any kind? The answer is in the inductance and capacitance factors that result from increased length. It's no more complicated than that. Longer cords get 'warmer' with every foot you add, although how rapidly you hear the change depends on the specific geometry of the cord. The VDH cable is an outstanding design, with very low inductance, so it's losses in resolution and dynamics should be more gradual as the length increases. Other cords, which have higher levels of Inductance per foot, will yield a more rapid change as the length increases. A properly designed PC should be resistant to noise, but if the changes in sonics we're hearing are strictly from filtering out that noise, then where are the measurements to back up that idea? I've seen plenty of powerline conditioners that give specs on their noise filtering capabilities, but have yet to see numbers on a PC. I don't think that's coincidence. IMO, RLC factors rule the roost when it comes to PC sonics. They don't explain everything (like why cryoing 'sounds' like lowered inductance, but isn't measureable), but they seem to get us most of the way there. Again, JMO.
Tplavas: Without going into a detailed characterization of the sound of the Mainsstream (although actually, your adjectives, though not the entire story, do happen to apply very well in this case) -- and I hope without being too cute in answering the question -- the simplest and probably best way I can describe the difference I found attributable to length is that the longer version sounds the same as the shorter version only more so, if you take my meaning. With this particular cord, in these lengths and in my system, to me that's a good thing, but I can also imagine by extrapolation the possibility of going overboard (something that could be said about any filtering). However, without a 30ft. cord on hand to compare that's only a guess on my part, and perhaps as has been suggested things just keep getting better and better, or maybe we simply reach a point of diminishing returns without going over into detrimental effects. (Unlike Leonx, I didn't find any loss of real resolution with the longer cord, although the reduced brightness, which I assume could represent reduced modulated noise, might be mistaken for such.)
PS -- I regret to have to add that for anyone interested in trying this cord, be aware it's a model which has been widely counterfeited on the secondhand market, as I found out the hard way before getting enlightened.
I did a lot of testing many powercables. And yess there are cables who sound better when they are longer. Cables of 1 metre comparred to a cable of 2 metres I found out that a 2m cable in many situations sounds better. For example, Nordost starts with 2 metres for there PC's. I comparred a 1 metre with a 2 metre cable. The 2 metre has more drive in the low freq. and the voices sounds more natural. There was one thing the 1 metre was better, there was a little more resolution. We tested on a system of about e 30.000,-
Since this thread is back to my attention today I'll make good on my threat from above, and report that after additional testing with 1.5m vs. 2.5m lengths of a power cord specifically claimed by its manufacturer to incorporate beneficial filtering -- intrinsically via its lengthwise construction, rather than by some sort of discrete attatched filter (the van den Hul Mainsstream, which BTW is not offered in lengths below 1.5m for this very reason) -- I am reconfirmed as siding with the longer-is-better hypothesis (or at least more pronounced in its effects, which in this case I find salutory).
The difficult part of defining "better" PC performance is knowing what is causing the change in sonics from cord to cord. You can't say with certainty that a cable sounds better because it offers 'filtering' of some sort, unless you've compared the exact same cable with and without filtering. Several power cable companies claim that certain of their cords sound better because of a degree of RFI filtering, and yet they also employ other changes on these cords, such as different geometry, different gauge, or even different connectors. When measured, many of these 'filtering' cables have significantly different inductance and capacitance values compared to a basic "diy" cable, which makes it hard to know if you're hearing the filtering, or the increased inductance. If that seems to leave the issue 'up in the air', I think that's exactly what some of the cable marketing out there seeks to achieve.
Here's some food for thought about longer lengths - It may just be true that a longer power cord could actually "sound better" BUT - this will vary from cord manufacturer to cord manufacturer. Why? Because many of the power cords are actually acting as a filtering device between the wall and the component, not just a power delivery device (or wire) that many of us suppose they must be. Recently I did a power cord shootout and discovered that quite a few of the respectable sounding power cords were also filtering as compared to some various DIY copper, silver, different sized guaged and cryod cords I had on hand (all of which were just designed to deliver raw power, period). With this in mind, it makes a perfect hypothosis that some cords will actually sound better (to a point mind you) if they are longer, since they may actually filter the noise to the component much better. Think about this guys, it actually makes sense!
BTW: None of my DIY cords could hold a candle sonically to some of the commercial cords that were obviously filtering in some way. (Have I perhaps uncovered one of "secrets" that differentiates the best cords from the also rans?)
Zaikesman, you should keep equal-length PC's on your amps. No matter which side of the length argument a person falls on, we're in agreement that length does affect sound. I would think that having unequal-length PC's would affect soundstaging. I'll confess that I'm just itching to tell you what you can expect from your listening tests, but since that would 'poison' your mind, I'll refrain.
I dunno, Bojack could have meant that my little dialectic was hogwash rather than the topic of long power cords, guess I couldn't blame him if he did...
Grant: I have one 1m and a few 1.8m Sidewinders, and although the shorter cord hasn't sounded better to me, as I might have vaguely thought it somehow ought to, I've never done a rigorous comparison to try and find out (in part because recently I've only used the Sidewinders for my tube monoblocks, and figured both amps should get the same length cords). But I might extend the test to the Sidewinders just for yucks, depending on what I observe with my newer 1.5m vs. 2.5m cords.
Regarding 1meter or less, we get at least 2 dozen direct queries (phone calls) a year for one-meter or less PC's, maybe half of which are asking after less than one meter.
These phone or e-mail queries are all directed to me and I do my level best to inform, not dissuade the purchase of a 1m PC. We will not make a shorter length, but I am aware of companies that will, and do.
There is a growing contingent of "I don't want my wife or I to see any cable" customers. They are out there and I hear from some of them. There is no great savings btw a 1m and a 1.8m power cord as most of the labor is in the terminations, so when I explain, most understand, other than those concerned more with aesthetics. Stll, we made over 900 1m power cords last year, so there are those that just order them outright, and have them. I'm guessing, but I'd predict most of those 1m sales were overseas.
No problem, Grant (BTW, my name is Alex, I'm located in metro DC, and you and I have spoken by phone in the past, if that helps in any way). I appreciate your caveats about the time and place Caelin made his recommendation. But I can't fail to note that your spirited defense of what I thought was a pretty trivial comment is taking place here, today, among overwhelmingly power cord "believers", as Tplavas puts it (personally, I think we're considerably past the stage of "belief" or "non-belief" among people who've actually done the critical listening). In this context, in a discussion not without some real controversy concerning whether longer PC's actually do sound better than shorter ones, I don't think it's being too critical or unfair to state the obvious: That recommending a minimum length of 3 ft., when that's the shortest PC's come anyway, and cautioning about why 2 ft. is impractical when everybody knows this, simply isn't saying much of anything. But I apologize for seeming a bit cynical; of course I realize that Shunyata still needs to sell 3 ft. cords same as everybody else in the biz -- if you went too strongly the other way, I guess people would just accuse you of trying to get us to spend more on longer cords! I understand that you and Caelin fundamentally concur with the assertion at hand, and that you came on the thread to lend whatever credibility you could to that stance, so I hope we can just 'agree to agree', as it were, about the larger point here and move on.
Grant: Discretion's often the better part of valor, and you're nothing if not valiant, but I'll bet you a Helix no one here owns a cord less than 3 ft. long unless they DIY'ed it -- probably for the reason you mention -- however the question here is about sound and longer cords, not what's the shortest cord that won't fail to make the connection. I'll agree it makes sense that if a particular cord doesn't do beneficial things for the sound at 3 ft., then going to 8 ft. probably won't be an improvement -- another "it should go without saying" point.
The post you refer to is circa 2000 and was not an "article", but just a posted response to an antagonistic diatribe from a someone that was casting stones at anything that related to power products.
Caelin stated his opinion in response to several people that were calling all power products BS. It wasn't intended to be any complete answer to the question in this thread. Sorry, I don't see any cop out there, we're talking _six_ years ago and an unrelated thread and generally, unrelated questions.
The term "Cop Out" as you used it, is grossly unwarranted in this circumstance, and brings my knee up a bit, maybe my fault, but it is grossly misapplied.
You want to debate physics, science and power cord length or anything else power related? e-mail me and I'll send you Caelin's contact info, or contact me, I promise not to "cop out".
There's no "cop out" here Zaikesman. I get tired of such snide comments from anomymous posters that have nothing to lose in name calling and defaming any company they choose. The term "cop out" tipped me over, and it was unfair to use it in this context. Of course\ this is just IMO---feel free to judge my affiliation since I'm the marketing and sales director for Shunyata.
Compared to what get's propogated on these forums as legitimate info that is actually baseless speculation, covert marketing, nonsense technobabble, or chest puffing, Caelin's circa 2000 respose to antagonists posts is a--" cop out"? I beg to differ.
You claiming that bothers me. You're judging a "post" from six years ago that was not intended to answer anything in this thread. Your use of the term "cop out" simply doesn't fit, and I'm asking you to take it back. Reference us any which way you want, we're no "cop outs."
We're much more accessible for judgement than the moniker "Zaikesman" or any of the other "moniker" or fake name on this site. Shouldn't that make people act more responsibly in their comments/attacks on companies that can't hide their names? I guess not.
LOL, I guess I left you scratching your head eh? You understand my position clearly on points D and E of your post. Let me clarify the rest: For A), I said electrical measurements would show a shorter cord to be better. Meaning better performance in regards to inductance and capacitance. Those may not be the only factors that affect PC performance, but they are indeed measureable, while others are not. For B), we can't currently find measurements to support the audible changes we 'believers' hear. Meaning you can't use a Db meter, frequency analyzer, etc. to 'see' proof of differences. For C), listening may well reveal that a PC sounds best (to you) in a longer length, given your personal preferences and system-specific sonics. But as I said in D), if that is the case, then you've got the wrong (less than optimum) PC. Chances are a different PC of shorter length (and probably of different gauge), will accomplish the same sonic change you preferred, plus may do so with improved dynamics. (Whether such a PC product is currently available on the market may limit your choice). As for E), some of the more exotic explanations for why PC's affect changes on audio gear, while they might be perfectly plausible, can't be proven with measurements, so they are, for the time being at least, just theories to support what might be causing the changes we hear. As for point F) of your post, I'm sorry if I left you with that impression, it certainly wasn't my intent. I was merely suggesting a method that might make it easier for you to hear the differences between 2 otherwise identical cables. I'd also like to add that I think Shunyata makes excellent PC's, and that their efforts to improve upon PC performance are greatly appreciated by 'true believers' such as myself. The very fact that they are one of the very few cable companies to use cryogenics tells me all I need to know about the quality of their products, and the sincerity of their efforts. Maybe next someone could start a thread asking if cryoing PC's makes them sound better? (The answer, IMO, is a resounding yes)
Caelin's recommendation of no shorter than a 1 meter length has to do as much with practicality than anything else. Although shorther than three feet essentially just adds connecting points and puts you kissing distance from your Romex--so what's the point of a nice PC, then?
Often times the IEC of a component is inverted (upside down). If you say, order a two foot length measuring fom IEC to the wall. You get the cord, then realize than you have to turn or invert it to match the outlet in the wall, guess what, it's too short. That, and the loss of resale value and in our opinion, a performance loss, are the reasons I warn customers that want a one-meter or shorter power cord.
Regarding Guido's reference to a 30 foot power cord we made: Astoria Studios (Pink Floyd) requested a 6ft Anaconda to try with their Studer Master Deck. We supplied a 6ft length for eval. hey were skeptical that it would make _any_ difference because all the power supplies of their electronics were heavily modified by Tim Diparavacini.
They had to wheel the Studer deck across the floor for the eval because the 6ft length of the power cord was far too short. Based on listening results, they ordered a 30 foot Anaconda to allow the distance required for the Studer's normal place on the floor.
Soon after recieving the 30 footer (we took pics before shipping as its the longest we've made), the studio manager called us to ask what the new, incredible model was as it was light years better than what we had sent for test. We explained why the difference existed and they understood. Since then, they have been our greatest protagonists in the pro realm and ordered more than $150k worth of product. Anectodal, sure. However, in such a high rez application, it speaks loudly to our point. Wont be true of all PC's likely, but it is with ours.
Tplavas: Please forgive me when I note that you seem like you're coming from about 6 different places at once with your arguments. I glean from your posts that you feel: A) measurements will show that shorter is better; B) we cannot measure the effects of power cords; C) listening will show there's an optimal length that may not be the shortest; D) if listening does show that this optimum length is not the shortest, then you've got the wrong cord; E) offering technical explanations for what we hear with power cords is merely theorizing to support experience; F) technical theories support how you think I ought to do power cord listening tests.
I agree with you on one thing, with apologies to Grant, which is that Caelin's article cops out in the end (athough I liked some of the points he made before then) by recommending that power cords not be shorter than 3 feet, the shortest cord anybody offers anyway. That's bold. (BTW, I use some Shunyata cords.)
To tell you the truth, until only about 2 months ago, I probably wouldn't even have repsonded to this thread, because it would've simply struck me as silly. Of the cords I owned in different lengths -- which were all 3-5 ft. -- I just assumed they either sounded the same or that shorter would be incrementally better, but basically I didn't think about it. Then I got an 8 1/2 ft. cord as a good deal on demo, thinking I would try it out and buy a shorter length if I liked it well enough. It was instantly the best sounding cord I owned, and I began to suspect that length had something to do with it. So I got another one in a 5 ft. length, and do plan to formally compare the two once I'm sure everything's broken in and I get the time. FYI, I will compare them in all system positions, because I need to know how they perform where they'll be used, no matter what the reasons for how they do.
Zaikesman, if you plan to compare the effects of PC length, I'd suggest changing the PC that connects your power conditioner to the wall. By affecting a number of components at one time, the sonic effects of the change in length should be somewhat more pronounced. It also makes clear that the change in sound isn't solely due to reduction in EMI near your gear, or RFI filtering, since the PC should at that position be both farther away from your rack, and before the much heavier filtering of your powerline conditioner. Differences of over 3 feet should be very easy to hear, while lengths shorter are useful for 'tuning' once you've got a handle on the difference length makes.
Nobody here has posited a reasonable argument for why a shorter power cord would ever sound better (kinda like the phallic analogy, no?). Although I don't think "longer is better" can hold true without limit (ditto!), and obviously for the vast majority of systems we're only talking about a range of a several feet difference at most, still it only makes sense that if a power cord does anything good for the sound at all, then it needs some length to get that effect accomplished. Of the power cords I own, two varieties (from two different brands) are in more than one length (ranging from 1m to 2.5m), and although I haven't done rigorous audition tests comparing the sounds of the different lengths (instead just going with whatever length works best from a cable-routing standpoint), my general, informal impression is that the length-is-good argument actually does have some degree of sonic merit to it. If I decide to do further listening investigations, I'll report the results here...
Perhaps I missed the 'Physics' to which you are referring Grant. Where in the linked item did Caelin elaborate on why "longer is_always_better"? I read an opinion that he doesn't recommend PC's shorter than 3ft. That's not really a practical problem, since most folks can't place their gear that close to their outlets anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since none of the differences we power cable 'believers' hear can yet be verified by standard measurements, then any "technical" explanations as to why PC's "always" sound better in longer lengths is just theory attempting to support subjective experience, yes? However, a person can easily buy measuring devices that will show that a shorter PC does indeed have superior electrical characteristics over a longer one of otherwise identical design. So it would seem the 'shorter is better' camp have more evidence on their side, for the time being at least. Of course, you're welcome to your opinion, and in your context it may well be true that longer sounds better. I firmly believe in trusting one's ears as the absolute judge of quality.
That's right, shorter is never automatically better, it does depend on the competence and integrity of the PC design.
All being equal however, with a competently designed power cord, his point is that yes, longer is _always_ better, and he went fairly deep into the physics of the equation and reasons for that. Considering that the only other technical rebuttal in this thread relates to male anatomy and sexual positions/mockery, I'd say his explanation is fairly in depth and well elucidated. As was his other post in that AA thread, circa 2000.
Of course, you're welcome to your opinion and in your context, it may well be true.
Actually, Caelin Gabriel doesn't say shorter is not better. He say's shorter is not automatically better. And I still disagree. If a pc sounds 'worse' in a shorter length, then it's the wrong pc for that application. If you're sticking with one specific brand and model of PC, it may sound best in a longer length, but that's not to say that a different model of pc that has a better 'synergy' with the component won't sound better in a shorter length, because it will. Every time IMO. If you ask me, there's a bit of the 'one size fits all' mentality in the pc biz.
C'mon you guys, be serious here. Everyone knows it's how you 'make contact' that counts. I find plugging n' unplugging really fast for a minute or so to do the trick...
You mean to tell me that listening to a "high quality" PC in a 6 foot length and then replacing it with the same manufacturer's PC (same break in time etc) in a 3 foot length would make an audible negative difference? If you actually believe that once you exchange these two cords you actually hear a negative difference than, like the barnyard animals that sense a storm before the farmer does, I want to be hanging around with you so I am saved from the impending doom! I heard that part of the movie "Anaconda" was filmed in the listening room of someone who is convinced that longer PC's always sound better.
Since frequency extension, at the top and at the bottom, is the watchword of true hifi (hence the name) I have found that simple EXTENSION CORDS available at ACE hardware (they are paying me to say this) do the best job. Cascading them makes it even better--until the fire marshal shows up.
TVAD, ma' power chordses're real more thicker'n yourns. . . them's 7 incherns rounds! Wanna make somp'n of it huh, Huh, HUH? Michaelwolf, yes you are right, and bad AC can give AIDS to unprotected equipment. That's why all my PCs will hence be protected by a Silver-based contact enhancer, which of course has also beneficial antibacterial properties. . . . oops, forgot that HIV's a virus. . . perhaps I should try a latex sheeth on all male IECs after all.
No doubt, it is a known fact that the higher frequencies are shorter wave length electrons and therefore cannot travel as far as the midrange electrons. Just like spermatazoa. That's why the longer power cords have more midrange.
There is a very simple explanation of why longer power cords sound better. This is because they represent a longer proportion of the length from the power source (e.g. the power plant, dam, or whatever). Therefore, if I am 25 miles from the power plant, a 4' chord represents .003% of the total run, whereas 8' would be .006%. This is double the effect! Clearly significant enough to be heard with our audiophile "golden ears":)
Gunbei are you off your pills again? :) I am waiting for a bucket truck to come so I can get busy soldering my new power cords directly to the pole, they are not Cryo treated but do cold Ohio winters count?
Sugarbrie, although not practical, I have wondered how this would sound. Is that an example of AudioGONE dementia? Would you offer your beautiful Sugarbrie BC21 up for experimentation? Heheh.
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