Mcintosh 452 vs Pass Labs XA 30.5

I had a Pass X1 pre with an XA30.5. Traded the XA 30.5 in for a McIntosh MC452. Big improvement. Later traded the X1 in for a McIntosh C2500. I prefer the McIntosh sound, but the Pass stuff is very good. Speakers were Klipschorns, JBL 1400, and then later JBL 4367

Having owned both imo Pass labs blows mac out of the water .A giant move  backwards

Apples and oranges...but for the Totems the MC452 will be a night and day improvement.  Others, not so much.

@missioncoonery so you had a 452 and a XA30.5 and the Pass “blew the Mac out of the water”?
kinda hard to believe, but if you say so then ok. It’s all pretty subjective if you ask me, but whatever 

Why do my posts all have a little snowflake-like icon on them? Is it because I don’t have many posts? Am I on probation or something?

I have owned the Mac 402 ,452,Pass labs x150,x150,5,x250,5,x250.8..all driven into various speakers including the Dynaudio confidence line (which if not mistaken the Totems use their drivers,not positive).Both the mac amps imo are slow with less dynamics,very tubby which has been a long criticism of them..Plus Pass has a better, much better customer service which is a big deal to me.So much i would never buy McIntosh again as i had big issues with them and warranty.

At the end it depends which properties your loudspeakers and other stuff of your system you own. But...when you would compare Pass Labs and Mcintosh together in a shootout with a system what can reveal all the different properties of sound. The Pass will be superior.

This is very easy to explain. The Pass can create in a perfect set-up a wider and deeper stage. This is alsway a possitive benefit to create a stunning 3D holographic stage.

And it is also better in timing compared to the Mcintosh. It is more controlled in the lowest frequencies. And you will be able to hear more layers in the lowest frequencies as well.

The other benefit you will hear is that the Pass creates more layers in sound. So it reveals a higher level in diversity of sound. This property is the most important one compared to all the other properties of sound.

Based on the fact that this one has the biggest influence on the human emotion. When you understand music and sound I can garnatee you that you will choose for Pass Labs. But people who have less experience and knowledge could easliy choose for Mcintosh

My vote is for Mcintosh. The second poster said it, the 452 blows the xa30.5 out of the water. Pass reviews were raving about the .5 series years ago, now they say the .8 series is much better.... so the .5 series was not so good then, makes me laugh my a.. off.

About Pass having more soundstage, I say rubbish about carving instruments pinpoint in space...lol  You want soundstage, buy tickets and go to a concert. I prefer having that bold rich sound Mac gives, for less money and with better resale value than Pass...You will be buying much better value overall.

You need to read before you talk this nonsense. he wrote; the Pass blows  the Mcintosh out of the water. Not the other way around

A rich sound is totally different than layering in sound. Diversity in sound is what creates a higher level in emotion. A rich sound misses the diversity. And will always create an inferior level in emotion for each single human being. Based on the fact that our emotion works that way

I have done thousands of tests in  audio in almost  20 years of time. I know the differences very precise. Sound is founded on properties. These properties needs to be revealed by the audio system you need.

The Mcintosh will fill in all the different properties of sound less precise and convincing. Just compare a Pass and a Mcintosh at the same price level with loudspeakers, pre amp and source what can reval all the different properties of sound at a stunning level.

Then you will understand......

The Pass is a great power amp but a bit underpowered. So Mcintosh will probably be quite an improvement. Consider a tube preamp. Your speakers suggest you are looking for something musical. Mcintosh are not the last word in resolution but very musical. Try to audition the C2600 pre.

The 60.5 and 60.8 are not the best Pass products. A XA30.5 cannot be used for all loudspeakers. And cannot be compared by a X series amp or a Class a/b amp of Mcintosh.

You always need to compare similar products in the same price range. I owned the XP-20 as well. It is a good pre amp, but it is not a stunning one. This is what you need for each Pass power amps and monos.

When you judge audio at the highest level regarding an extreme 3D holographic stage and the best layering in sound. Pass is the only way to go. In my world Mcintish is not acceptable. Due to the fact that I have listened to so many products and I did compare many. A born perfectionist is only interested in the best result possible. 2nd best and less is in my world for all those born losers.

The Mcintosh owns what we call a pleasant sound. But I have done so much research in sound and the emotion of us humans. That I now know and understand that you need diversity in sound instead of a pleasant sound.

When you listen to your beloved music between an amp with a pleasant sound vs an amp which can reveal all the layers in the whole frequency range. You will choose for the last one. Based on the fact that this one will give you a more emotional experience.

This is how we do audio. We let people hear to what we call a Tru-Fi system. It reveals all the details and layers of a recording. When they bring their own music with them we can let them experience their own music in a Tru-Fi system.

The outcome is the same over and over again. They all experience their music at a superior level in emotion they ever auditioned. Music is emotion.

I have done so much research in almost 20 years of time and still spend a lot of time on research. I am addicted to music since I was a child. I did learn to be able to extract of each single part on of an audio system all the properties it can reveal. I can label each part with the DNA it owns.

This is why I understand why each system sounds and build the stage what I hear.

On these fairly easy to drive speakers, both will work fine, but my money’s on the Pass for a better sound at "normal. And on harder to drive speakers the Pass all the way every day.
But if you really want to get loud with these speakers they are are only 80db efficiency which means you want watts and that’s where the 450w Mac will beat out the 60w @ 4ohm Pass, in being able to go louder, but not necessarily better sounding. 
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Mani2fig1.jpg

Cheers George

It has nothing to do with being arrogant. Audio is being founded on properties. These are the essential parts of audio. And they tell the truth.

It depends what you would like to hear? The truth or the thing you would like to hear. We choose for the first one.

@d2girls:  dreamer in  fairytails

Actually, the second poster (me) said that they were both good, but I preferred the McIntosh. Nothing blew anything out of the water. Liked both of them. 

@d2girls he’s beyond arrogant

hahahahahahaha......I have done thousands of tests. And I do audio full time for almost 20 years of time. We live in a different world. We are so much further in details and results.

There is a group of people who prefer to hear the things they would like to hear. They do not like to hear the truth.

So........my stereo is lying to me?
Yikes

We can proof it by facts. That is what we do. It is very easy to explain. We have many many clients in my whole country with Tru-Fi systems.

When a client is looking for something in a particular price range we send them to client who own stuff in the price range they are looking for.

So we advice tgem always to bring in their own music they know well. So they can listen to a Tru-Fi system with their own music. The results are always the same. 

They are often amazed how big the differences are in emotion and intensity. They understand that it is superior to what they own and what they auditoned in other shops.

Audio is shootout and comparing. We work totaaly different. We spend so much more time in both sound&vision. I am addicted to it since I was a child. I spend over 200 dollars on new music each month. We love to visit live concerts as well.

Tru-Fi brings people so much closer to the truth and how music sounds and is being displayed in space.

We create many new upgrades for our clients all the time. They can take a listen to many tools and modifications in their own system before they buy it.

It is always our goal to create a superior upgrade for a price no other company can give. I have many clients who in the past where doing audio by trial and error.

Many often got tired because they were not able to get the sound they were hoping for to find. Most of them use their system each single day. 

It is our focus to create a stunning level in sound and music for each single person. That is why we did research in many diefferent price levels. I want other people to have the same experience as my clients have.

So they can experience the real emotion their music possesses. I want people to learn something. That is why I want to use conservatorium students so people can learn and understand how sound and music works.

@d2girls Your reactions here on Audiogon proof you want to say something to peoole you don't agree with.

When you create your system by trial and error you will never understand why the stage and souns is what you hear. You do it all pure on gambling. It proofs that you do it at the elvel of a child, Based on the fact thta there is no foundation.

So tell us what your foundation is to create your audio system. And what is your reference you found your decisions on?

I see you use horn loudspeakers. I can garantee you when you would listen a lot to live music in small settings you would never buy horn loudspeakers. Based on the fact that it builds the stage a lot different than voices and instruments do in real.

A horn loudspeaker also owns his particular sound. Often people use warm sounding amps and tubes to colorize the sound of the loudspeaker.

You want an audio system sound as realistsic as possible. Like you want to create the same intimate stage and focus of voices and instruments.

When you would listen to live music regarding both voices and instruments they are very small and direct. But when you listen to most horn loudspeakers often they are projected out of proportion. The peopel who make these mistakes have no idea hwo big they are in real.

I often asked them on shows why the instruments and voices are that big? And I asled them also often do you know how big voices and instrumentd are in real?

Often the have no idea. Most audio systems are all based on pure gambling. When people think this is the best way to create an audio system, I think they have no idea what they are doing!

I sold Luxman in th past. It is a 2D amp on facts. Based on the fact that it can build almost no stage depth. We are not talking about a personal taste. But a fact what can easily be proven by audio.

When you are saying here on Audiogon that Luxman is better than Pass you make a big born fool of yourself. Luxman has an inferior level of diversity in sound. This again has nothing to do with personal taste.

But again can be proven by shootout. Maybe Audiogon is for amatures. But when I read this kind of nonsense, it need to be said.

Many people make the mistake that a pleasant and warm sound is the same as diversity in sound. But it is not. Layering in sound means you can hear all the different harmonics in sound.

We have proven many times to clients that what they thought was a divers sound proved to be a pleasant sound. When we did a shootout, they had to agree that the Tru-Fi system was superior in layering in sound.

The question is: what is the truth? The thing I love most in audio is that what you hear will always tell the truth. So people can hear it themselves so there is no dicussion anymore.

We humans will always choose for the sound and stage what creates the highest level in emotion and intensity. The emotion only can be found on the recording. An audio system cannot create emotion by it self.

But you need an audio system what is able to reveal all the details and layers of the recording. This is why when you create sound just by the properties it owns, it will always create a superior level in emotion and intensity.

We can proof it over and over again. Soon we will start with professional videos with Sony professional. I will film how people react on their trial and error system. And how they react on a Tru-Fi system.

Audio is shootout and comparing.

When people judge on products others own, we always see that it becomes personal. I talked a lot in the last few months with manufacturers and other people who also work in audio for a long time.

I said; audio needs parameters to make it more clear to people. And many agreed. Now people can say whatever they want to say. There is no control and there are no rules.

Many brands like to use the word higend. You need to understand what sound is and how music is being formed. That is why you need to understand what al the different properties are of sound.

Together they create how we experience music. For us it is very easy to show the difference between 2D and 3D audio. Like we compare audio systems with a low level in diversity to a system what can reveal a high level in diversity.

Only this way people can understand what the different properties of sound can do. And even how they react on our emotion. All different properties of sound can influence our emotion.

You can find a lot of great articles about the human emotion. Also there are enough articles how music works regrading our emotion. It will make you more understand how it really works.

I have done thousands of tests in audio in almost 20 years of time. We still do a lot of tests in audio. When we go to a client for an audio system. We take with us over 6000 euro on high tech measurements.

When we do vision again we take over 6000 euro in high tech calibration stuff. The great thing about the time we are living now, is that there are great tools to create a level what was not even possible 10 years ago.

When you do both sound&vision by their own properties it will bring you to a level you never experienced before. Most audio systems are incomplete on facts, This means that by shootout it is very easy to let people hear which properties are missing.

Each audio system what reveals less properties of sound will always create a lower level in emotion.

His posts are unreadable in my opinion. If I’m reading a thread and I see he has posted I just scroll past him. He just keeps repeating himself over and over. Hey Bo, you need to come up with some new material.

My last post was deleted, it’s ok I understand why.

To make it a short story, I own a Luxman M900u and the pre I use is a McIntosh C52. I did the preamplifier acid test. I compared the DAC direct to amplifier VS DAC to C52 to amp. to see if I was loosing on resolution and harmonic layering.

The answer, the C52 is transparent as clear water. I was astonished, I did not feel the need to buy the C900u from Luxman, as I was earing every sonic nuances with Mac...

As usual the preamplifier eliminates the thinness of dac direct to amp, elevates dynamics , creates a bigger soundstage, we all know that this is a fact when the dac output stage has not enough voltage to drive the amplifier.

Now about PassLabs , very good gear, but sorry the Luxman M900u has craftsmanship never seen in any Pass gear. Like comparing a Corvette ZR1 to a Bentley...

“On these fairly easy to drive speakers, both will work fine...”

Totem Mani2 speakers are actually not an easy load thus my comment around the McIntosh being a better match, all other things being equal.

My finial thought on this Pass labs vs McIntosh debate.Pass Labs has a transferrable warranty ,McIntosh does not,none.So if you buy a 2 year old Pass amp used you have 1 year of warranty on it.You buy a 2 week old used Mac amp you have squat warranty.Big deal to me.Also if you buy Mac gear new from authorized dealer over the phone and have it shipped ,you have zero warranty,it happened to me.

one thing about pass that makes it a pleasure to own is their phenomenal customer service. i own a mac c2300 pre and the pass x250.5. So i call both companies every once in a while. Pass treats me like a prospective customer every single time. Mac guys do answer the question - but they do come across as being rushed. Nothing wrong - just pointing. So one might ask "so what". 

I bought my x250.5 fearing that the x30.5 or 60.5 wouldnt be able to drive my speaker. the 250.5 was so revealing with layers - that i was happy listening at twice lower listening level compared to before. I can totally see what bo1972 says about layering. Essentially since my listening volume has come down - i am always operating in class A. i never thought i'd be happy with 15W (thats when the 250.5 leaves class A). 

btw - i totally love the c2300 - especially the phono stage. it comes alive with a pair of teles. I have listened to the 402 and the 452 and they tend to fill the room with warmth and there was a time when i liked it. For now - i guess i am happier with the pass - until the next stop!

Totem Mani2 speakers are actually not an easy load

Not correct.
They are an easy load, they are just not efficient 80.7db, which means they need watts rather current when played loud.
 
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Mani2fig1.jpg
" I calculated the Mani-2's B-weighted sensitivity as a very low 80.7dB/2.83V/m. No wonder it didn't go very loud with the low-powered 15W Cary  Cary CAD-300SEI amplifier, as delightful as the sound was."

Cheers George

Let me address my customer service experience quickly.I had an issue with a new Pass amp.Nelson called me personally,worked on my amp personally,took it home and listened to it an entire weekend before sending it back..McIntosh refused my warranty card when I sent it in because even though i had no dealer within 100s of miles,I purchased from an authorized dealer an amp over the phone and had it shipped.Mcintosh will not recognize warranty unless you go directly to the store.On the phone they are the worst company i have ever dealt with.Rude is being generous. One would think after dropping $4500 you would get some type respect from a service rep.I would rather go without a stereo before ever buying anything from McIntosh....having said that Mcintosh imo is slow,colored,bass tubby in comparision to Pass. Mcintosh is like taling a knife to a gun fight

So you bought a brand new 452 for $4500. And the dealer shipped it to you, which is goes against McIntosh policy/dealer agreement. 
I would question the dealer as to why they shipped the unit when they know this isn’t allowed. And you bought the amp for about 50% off retail. Sure it was new?
i have owned many Pass amps. I agree that they are an awesome company with excellent customer support 

“They are an easy load, they are just not efficient 80.7db, which means they need watts rather current when played loud.”

Not looking for an argument but whatever wording you want to choose your advice was not appropriate. I know those speakers and 30wpc, class A or otherwise, will not be a good match to get the best sound out of them, even in a moderate size room. They’ll sound okay but nowhere near what they’re capable of. 

tlong1958..No I bought a MC402 back when it was the latest offering..Pretty sure it was 4500 ,maybe 5500,I don't remember what it was but I paid retail plus about $150 to ship it UPS...the 452 I bought much later used and dirt cheap only to flip for profit, which I did.I would never have Mac in my system after the 402 disaster.So I battled the factory and the dealer at that time and the only thing I was promised was from the dealer that if I ever had a problem contact them.I did wait long enough and sold that amp..but my story is true.

“On these fairly easy to drive speakers, both will work fine...”

Totem Mani2 speakers are actually not an easy load

I beg to differ, you quoted me.
They are an easy load for an amp, just not efficient so you need watts. 

Not looking for an argument but whatever wording you want to choose your advice was not appropriate.

But you are, then don't quote me and then try to "cover" your inability to distinguish "bad load for a speaker" with "inefficiency of a speaker".
A speaker with bad load impedance for an amp, with one that's just "inefficient", which in this case the Mani2's are, just inefficient and NOT a difficult impedance "load" for an amp.

mizioa

The  30watt Pass to me will sound the best to a given volume level, but the 450w Mac will go louder. This volume level has nothing to do with the "load" the speakers presents, but the "efficiency", to which will give the higher volume level. As far as me saying the Pass will sound better to a given volume, that's because it's a Pass, and the Mac? well is a Mac, (a solid state with output transformers?????) bizarre!


Cheers George   
     

@missioncoonery not doubting you. I haven’t had any issues with any of the 3 McIntosh units I have, but if I do I will let my dealer handle it. Hopefully I won’t get yanked.
ARC has really good customer service too, and you’re probably going to need it because it will blow up expensively

"But you are, then don't quote me and then try to "cover" your inability to distinguish "bad load for a speaker" with "inefficiency of a speaker"."

I give up. You wore me out. Go read Atkinson's measurements. I'm done with your BS.

Efficiency and impedance loading are two different measurement parameters in a speaker, end of story, your the one with the BS, with the inability to distinguish between the two, to mate amps up with.

For those that are interested:
An inefficient speaker like these Totems with low (80db) and fairly easy impedance load, can still be driven by a mediocre amp with less than average current drive, so long as it has high enough wattage for that inefficiency, to be played loud.

But if that same speaker also had a nasty impedance load as well, then it still needs an amp with the wattage to go loud, but would also need that amp to have good current drive as well to handle the nasty impedance load as well to stay linear in frequency response at those low impedance dips. If not it would sound like a tone control at those impedance dips.

Cheers George

When you want to experience music at the highest level possible you need a system what can reveal all the details and properties of the recording. This has nothing to do with personal taste. We are talking about facts.

The Luxman cannot create a very deep stage, becaus the stage dna is 2D. You cannot change this part, not even by modification. The second limitation on facts is that it cannot create diversity in height. Even this is a property of sound.

We have proven in the last months to many different people that Tru-Fi outperforms any trial and error system owned by new clients. We ask them to take their own music with them.

We let them hear their music with a Tru-Fi system. And they all agreed that it is superior to their own system. And they all agree that the level in emotion and realims is of a different world. Most of them said that they never auditioned this level in emotion and realism.

When we install an audiosystem. We bring in for over 7000 dollar in hightech measurement tools. Most companies only bring in a few cheep tools. Trial and error is a very low level in creating any audiosystem . And we can proof on facts over and over again that it is inferior based on facts compared to any Tru-Fi system.

Because the facts proof that they miss essential parts of sound. And we proof that the level in emotion and realism is inferior to our Tru-Fi systems. Each single human being will always choose for each audiosystem what can reveal all the different properties of sound. Due to the fact that all different properties of sound can influence the human emotion.

That is why each audiosystem what can reveal all the details and properties of sound will be chosen by each individualk person. We have proven this in the last months many times.

The thing I love most rergarding audio is that the most convincing and emotional sound will be chosen bij each individualk person. Based on the fact that our emotin works the same way. The only thing that is personal is our taste in music.

But......sound contains of different properties. And you need them all to feel the emotion that the music possesses. The beiggest propblem in audio is that over 99% of all audioproducts are incomplete on facts. This means that they cannot reveal all the different properties of sound.

And what is missing will never be there. Each audiosystem what is incomplete will create a lower level in emotion and intensity for each human being. And we can proof this on facts what we have done many many times.

@d2girls, born loser.

Audio is all about facts!