Monoblock Aegirs

tomic601

Also I run Treo CT in a 16 x 35’ room with a 40 wpc NAIM SS poweramp.....

I am obsessed with the LTA integrated amps, specifically their 40 watt version. All their products get superb reviews, but I worry that it won’t have the oomph to drive my Vandy 2CE SigIII’s. Maybe it would? Small room (12x15), typically don’t listen above 85db. I am running an Odyssey Khartago now (120 wpc) which has more than enough power. 60 wpc or maybe less should be okay.
https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/z40-integrated-amplifier

georgehifi7

Thanks  for the explanation, glad I came here and asked.👍🏻

Any amp that is mono'd including these Aegir's have bridged output stages. And when that's done they DON"T drive the bass when it has low impedance as good as the same amp in stereo mode.

As a bridged output stage as in the mono'd Aegir,
Is higher in output impedance (bad)
Lower in damping factor (bad)
Lower current ability(bad)
Higher in distortion(bad)  
Less stable in to low impedances (very bad).
But you have higher wattage?
  
You make what was a good stereo amp into "almost" a higher wattage PA amp. Good for easy >8ohm load speakers, just to get higher dB's and go loud.

Cheers George  

@ 395garrison, Yes they do. My point was if,one Aegir in mono drives them with no problem with two 15’’ woofers. One Aegir in mono should drive your Vandersteen with no problem with one 8’’ woofer. One Aegir in mono is 40 watts @8 Ohms. 40 Watts for your Vandersteens i think is good. So my point is two Aegir should work good. IMO, BTY, I think bi-amping is great ,Just more money more amps. I was just trying to give some insight on the amp. Mike. I hope that helps. :-)

I have single Aegir with vandersteen sig I’s. There is plenary of low end when the song is produced that way. I know people always think the bass is missing but it will vary from recording to recording. When I put on Pink Floyd the wall through quobuz the bass is over the top. All Stevie Ray Vaughan on vinyl has plenty of low end. I can also get plenty of volume when I need it. I have almost pulled the trigger many times on a second one and will some day, but I am very contend with current set up.

If they sound different they by definition don’t have the same transfer function 

logic is brutal

Also I run Treo CT in a 16 x 35’ room with a 40 wpc NAIM SS poweramp.....

fun

Nathan at Vandy can take you thru it as can any Vandy dealer or me ( Richard and I joke that I am the 24/7 technical support hotline...

dissimilar amplifiers have different transfer function which leads to smearing.. which is why the larger Vandy w active subs and the entire subwoofer lineup ALL use speaker level inputs so that the bass drive mimics that main amplifier transfer function. 
Vandy engineers for a relatively easy load to the amp with no bizare phase angles. The speaker is really meant to be biwired, preferably an external shotgun. I have run variants of model 2 with as few as 40 wpc ( mc240 ) , Odessa, Mc202, PSE, Audionics, VTL, Hafler, etc... etc... 

I have nothing against Schitt in fact I admire the vision and audacity and yes, I have visited the “ Schitter”... but you have other good choices. For example a Van Alstine amp, give Frank a call or your local Vandersteen dealer or as noted Johnny Rutan

have fun

reach out to me if I can help

georgehifi,
I guess I kind of glazed over that DNA part the first time you mentioned it.  As mentioned, above my skill set.
Thanks

But, when the midrange driver is being driven by a different amplifier than the woofer, (and in these cases by amplifiers not chosen for the similarity in their sounds, but rather for the difference in their sounds), the blending between the drivers is compromised and the sonic consistency of the speaker is inhibited.

It not, suggest you study the close ups of both. Same topology, just different rail volts, and the amount of Class-A bias.
They have the same DNA, by adding more Class-A to one amp is not! going to change the phase integrity from bass to mids. Not that it matters that much anyway, so long as they have the same gain.
I’ve heard magic from Class-D on the bass and tubes on the mids and highs.

He recommends vertical bi-amping with two of the same amps.

I do too if they have the "quality in the mids and highs of the Class-A Aegir", but the Vidar doesn’t. That’s why if the Schiits are used the Aegir is better on the mids and highs for it’s sweet class-A sound and the Vidar on the bass for it’s dynamic impact and bass drivability.



Cheers George

ditusa192,
I just looked up the speakers you are playing with, I wasn't familiar with 4435's.  Good lord those suckers take up some real estate!!!

@ garrison, I meant running mono blocks is a good thing.  That is how i run my speakers two aegirs in mono. What i meant was to follow the Vandersteen instruction manual, on Bi-Amping. Sorry for confusing. :-)

twoleftears,

I will give them a call, I was actually just looking at their website!  Thanks 

ditusa191 "BTW, What georgehifi said about bi-amping the vandersteen 2ce sig II is correct. :-)"

Thanks fort the info, it seems that several people are having pretty good luck running them as bridged monoblocks.

Which part are you referring to, that running your amps as monoblocks is a waste of good amps or that Vandersteen’s manual saying not to do horizontal bi-amplification with dissimilar amplifiers is is incorrect? Not trying to be argumentative, or discounting anyone’s experience, just looking for the best solution and tend to be one who follows instruction manuals. But you are correct, I can always return the Schiit!

Garrison

Horizontal bi-amp with one Vidar and one Aegir
OR
call Johnny Rutan at Audio Connection and talk to him about how well the Belles Aria goes with the Vandersteen 2's.

@ 395garrison, I run my 4435 monitors, with a pair of schiit aegir mono blocks. And the (SQ) is great. My monitors have two 15’’ woofers, the aegirs drive them with no problem. One aegir in mono is 40 watts @ 8 Ohms, 80 watts @ 4 Ohms. I think if you buy them and if you do not like them just return them back to schiit .For the money i think they are fine amps. IMO. BTW, What georgehifi said about bi-amping the vandersteen 2ce sig II is correct. :-)

George,

“But, when the midrange driver is being driven by a different amplifier than the woofer, (and in these cases by amplifiers not chosen for the similarity in their sounds, but rather for the difference in their sounds), the blending between the drivers is compromised and the sonic consistency of the speaker is inhibited.
Even if the levels of the two amplifiers are matched for one volume level, the amplifiers will still exhibit different dynamic characteristics, different imaging characteristics, different degrees of detail and instrument texture and different tonal balances. With the crossover between the woofer and midrange occurring in a range where the ear is very sen- sitive to any sonic changes, these differences will create con- siderable sonic confusion through the important midrange.
The only way to properly bi-amplify the Model 2Ce Signature II is passively with two identical amplifiers in a vertical configuration.” (R. Vandersteen)

That may very well be the case, he didn’t make reference to timing or phase, but rather to what happens to the mids due to the use of two different amplifiers with his speaker design.

I very much appreciate the time you have taken to opine, but I think I may heed the advice of the speaker designer in this particular case.


Bob,

I did look into the Belles Aria integrated that was suggested. Not a whole lot of info available except for glowing reviews, particularly with Vandersteen speakers. Which makes the decision much harder. The narrowing process got a bit wider.🤦🏻‍♂️ Would have to wrap my head around going with an integrated, and his monoblocks although reasonably priced are a bit out of my meager budget. I don’t usually suffer from upgrade-Itus, I have had the same speakers since ‘98 and ran them for the majority of that time with a receiver that I shared a birthday with.

I haven’t completely thrown out the monoblock Aegir idea, going to talk with Schiit.

But that leaves me with;

CXN V2 as preamp -> Vidar
Simple, clean and inexpensive.

CXN V2 as preamp -> Vidar X2 Bi-Amped
Possibly minimal benefit for $700 more.

CXN V2 as source -> Saga or Freya -> Vidar
Future phono flexibility but not a high priority

CXN V2 -> Belles Aria
Same

I previously had them hooked up to an old Marantz 2270, prior to the 5 channel Parasound that is pulling surround sound duty now. I miss the way that the Marantz would seemingly suck you in and make you want to listen to any music that I threw on for hours. Instead of a constant urge to scroll through tidal searching for particular tracks that sound really good. Looking for that good immersive feeling at higher quality level if that makes sense.🤷🏻‍♂️

That’s a really bad idea. Particularly for a Vandersteen which has been phase aligned with such care in it’s design.

Impossible, if gains of both the amps are adjusted with the Sys to be the same, Vadersteen’s phase alignment will be unaffected as the original Vandersteen xover is still used.
  
Yes different story if an external active xover is used.
  
BTW: He wouldn’t have done bi-amp or bi-wire terminals, and his level controls will screw up any phase alignment anyway once taken off the 0db position.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/107vandy2.jpg

Cheers George

Looks like 395garrison posted while I was writing and even provided the reference from Vandersteen ;~)

Your better to use the Aegir on the mids and highs and the Vidar on the bass and if they are different gains use a Schiit Sys on the louder of the amps to reduce it to the others level then use your Schiit Freya + preamp as the master still.

That’s a really bad idea. Particularly for a Vandersteen which has been phase aligned with such care in it’s design.

You should vertically bi-amp with 2 identical amps. If you doubt me just give Vandersteen a call. They're happy to talk to customers about such issues.

George,
I dusted off the old owners manual because I thought I recalled some bi-amp instructions. Mr. Vandersteen says no go on the horizontal bi-amping with two different amps idea, he gives a lengthy explanation as to why not on pg. 4. 🤷🏻‍♂️ He recommends vertical bi-amping with two of the same amps.

Aegirs probably wouldn’t have enough in the tank for that configuration.

http://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/Manuals/2ce_signature_ii_manual.pdf

Vidar is not a Lin topology. When used as a monoblock, it is simply amplifying a differential signal. It is not bridged."

This only applies to the input stage, output stage’s negative speaker terminal is still at ground potential therefore will only degrade in many parameters when the amp is "bridged", but gain more wattage.
Only amps that are are "fully balanced amps from input to output stage" with no earth ref will apply, like many Class-D’s. .
And here’s what Schiit told Stereophile As I said the output is "bridged"

" In mono output mode, Schiit says that the Aegir will deliver 80W into 8 ohms (19dBW). With a balanced, "bridged output"

As for the OP he will only be using one Vidar in stereo mode anyway only for the bass of both speakers, in the way I suggested he do it.

395garrison OP

A simple way for the OP to find out, is to ask Schiit if a mono’d "bridged" Vidar will be more or less stable into low impedances than a stereo Vidar, also a tell tale is which one has the "lowest output impedance" and "highest damping factor". This will settle it once and for all.

Cheers George

wturkey

Interesting! I guess I should of probably started off by shooting them an email. Curious if it is the same for the Aegir.

Taken from the Schiit mouth directly.

"Bridging is the process of using the output of one side of the amp to drive the inverting input (feedback point) of the other side of the amp, in a typical Lin-topology amp. This is technically "in series" and can have sonic consequences that are not ideal.

Vidar is not a Lin topology. When used as a monoblock, it is simply amplifying a differential signal. It is not bridged."

Something to keep in mind regarding the Vidar Amplifiers.

George,
I’ll have to take your word, I wouldn’t know what I am looking at. Just want to make them sound good at a somewhat reasonable price. Maybe I will have to buy them all and see what arrangement works best and send what I don’t use back.

Also need to take a look at the Belles Aria that was mentioned when I have some time.

Thanks

If you haven’t check there are you tube reviews of the Aegirs in monoblocks. There are two that I know of and one opined that the Aegirs don’t really suffer in terms of SQ when used as a monoblocks. It’s not officially rated with 4 ohm speakers but I run it with a pair (4 ohms) and so far my speakers has not gone into protection mode at all. There are a lot of 4 ohm speakers though that just won’t work . And as long as you have efficient speakers the Aegirs in Monoblocks have plenty of power and really improves the bass performance Vs Stereo Aegir .  The stereo Aegir is really great by itself as long as your speakers are efficient. And although the Vidar has more power and a little more bass , the Aegir sounds better.  I started with a stereo Vidar and I used the LOKI a whole lot, moved on to the Aegir and used the loki very seldom. I can’t really use the loki now that i have Aegir monoblocks because i prefer balanced sources , but I am satisfied with the Aegir monos . I don’t really miss the Loki. Just sharing my experience. Thanks 

395garrison OP
Thanks, appreciate the info on the sound quality issues caused by bridging, I had never looked in to it. Using both had crossed my mind but I had always read that when bi-amping the amps should be of the same type.

They are very much the same amp, very similar circuit topology. Study the closeup photos.
Just the Aegir has much low rail voltage and higher Class-A bias than the Vidar.

Cheers George

Thanks, appreciate the info on the sound quality issues caused by bridging, I had never looked in to it. Using both had crossed my mind but I had always read that when bi-amping the amps should be of the same type. The sys would address the gain issues. Curious if putting the sys in-line would negate the benefits of the relayed volume in the Freya +?

395garrison OP

This will be the best as the Class-A Aegir is for the mids and highs where it’s best at doing.

Aegir will will have plenty for the mids and highs and a Vidar great for the the bass.

Just horizontal bi-amp as I outlined.
The Sys goes on whichever amp has the higher gain in this diagram I made, it's assumed the Vidar has the higher gain, it could be the Aegir.  https://ibb.co/qjZmGsZ


Cheers George

Thanks for the replies, you made my decision a bit more difficult. 😁 Much more to consider anyway!

I would get a pair of Vidar's, if you want monoblocks. The Aegir's are only 20 wpc at 8 ohms.
The Vandy 2's showed a minimum 5 ohm load on Stereophile, which is pretty good, but 20wpc is on the low side, especially for a 25 x 25' room.
If it were me, and I didn't need monoblocks, I would consider a Belles Aria integrated.
If I needed monoblocks, I would buy a pair of Belles Aria monoblocks.
In fact, I am have Mr. B. build a pair for my VLR's, as I write.
Belles and Vandersteen pair very nicely. Much better than Schiit, in my opinion. (And, I won't knock Schiit products.
They are very, very good. 
But, if you want something that will keep you off the upgrade train, think about Belles. PM me, if you need more info. 
Bob

Curious if anyone has hooked up a pair of monoblock Aegirs to the Sig II’s and how well they drove them on the bottom end?

Never bridge amps, you turn a "good" stereo amp into a more powerful "mediocre" amp

By bridging stereo amps you gain wattage, but you loose low impedance drivability, stability, and increase distortion.

If the Vandersteen’s go down in impedance with low’ish -phase angle in the bass then things "could" be worse not better.

Your better to use the Aegir on the mids and highs and the Vidar on the bass and if they are different gains use a Schiit Sys on the louder of the amps to reduce it to the others level then use your Schiit Freya + preamp as the master still.

Cheers George