I was fortunate to move my home office to another room which is a bit bigger than the previous one. Dimensions are 12x13 with almost 20-foot ceilings. As much as I love my Harbeth P3esr's, I can't help but notice that they've been outclassed by the bigger room, especially the high ceiling. This pair of speakers has been a mainstay in my home office/study for a number of years, and I find it to be a perfect fit for my listening habits and music preferences. But in the new setting, it's not able to fill the room as well as it used to. For examples, horns and piano now sound much smaller and distant. So that got me thinking of an upgrade. I have been using a Raven Audio Blackhawk MK3 for a few months and would want to stick with it if possible. There are very few speakers that have allowed me to make an emotional connection with the music, and Harbeth is certainly one of them. So my preference is to stay with the brand.
Now, before the 'search bar is your best friend' folks come swinging at me, I have read a few threads on similar topics but they all seem to be inconclusive, or at least I'm not able to decipher a reasonable consensus. Having spent way too much money on this addiction, err, hobby, in the last 12 months, I have to resort to buying used equipment only, and that too has to wait for at least 2-3 months. So, doing an in-house demo is going to be difficult if not impossible. And, AFAIK, there are no dealers nearby (Dallas area) either.
I would love to hear from people who have moved up the Harbeth food chain. The M30.x seems to be a logical next step, but I see an equal number of negative opinions (too polite, too boxy, pipe and slippers) as positive ones. Is there anyone who thinks that the M30 retains the same magic as the P3esr's but serves it in relatively bigger portions? Because that's what I'm mainly looking for to be honest -- a bigger version of P3esr. Or do you think the cons negate the pros offered by the bigger cabinet size?
Next up is SHL5+. Again, the opinions vary widely. Some are saying that this particular model deviates the most from the classic Harbeth sound. Another concern is that my room might be too small for them (?). Also, I cannot pull them more than one and a half feet from the front wall. Is that going to result in ugly bass problems?
I'm not against trying another brand, but would prefer an opinion that is based on an actual comparison with Harbeth speakers.
@big_greg - I really loved the P3esr's and never thought I'd move on to something else, but here we are. When I was in a smaller room and seated about 5 feet from the speakers, the P3s were very satisfying. However, once I moved to the bigger room and sat about 8 feet from the speakers, they just couldn't keep up. Also, my Blackhawk was never able to drive them all that well.
The M30.1's, in my opinion, build upon the P3esr's with better scale, dynamics, and go deeper. They're also better for low level listening, I can easily hear more details at low volume. They're also an easier load for the Blackhawk. As I mentioned before, the way the sound leaps forward from a dark, quiet background is something to behold. But I think if you're listening near field, i.e. 5 feet or closer, 30.1 might not be that much of an improvement. They definitely need more space around them. Now, when it comes to human voice the 30.1s are superb, much better than my Olympica IIs, but I still think the P3s hold a slight edge.
@twoleftears -- Currently, the M30.1s are placed on metal plate-top stands from Pangea. Although, I've filled them with sand, I'm aware that they're not ideal for Harbeths. With my previous P3 speakers, I could hear a little bit of ringing that was definitely due to the stands. Using blutak solved the problem. I now face the same issue with 30.1 since they're currently on the same stands.
I have ordered wooden open style stands for both the M30.1 (24 inches) and SHL5+ (18 inches) from Z Audio (Terry, the owner also sells audio racks on this site under the user name trn). Unfortunately, it will be at least two weeks before I'm able to pick them up from Austin. I will refrain from providing any type of critical assessment until I've had a chance to put them on proper stands. Will definitely share my opinion once everything is settled.
The SHL5+ were delivered this morning. So far I've only put a few hours on them. They're not new so I'm assuming they have enough hours on them to rule out burn in related issues. Since I don't have proper stands yet, they're sitting on a wooden audio rack which is barely 8-10 inches from the floor. I know it's unfair to form an opinion just yet, but the bass is a little too much for my liking. It's not the booming kind but there's definitely some bloat that is bleeding into the mids and highs. I'm definitely missing the clarity and detail retrieval of my SF Olympicas 2. I'm seriously hoping that getting proper wooden open style stands will make a change for the better.
The sound is similar to 30.1 in many aspects but I feel that the SHL5+ are not as coherent and immediate. The sound is definitely bigger and fills the room better but, man, that bass is getting on my nerves. And I do miss that quality of the 30.1s sound emerging from a dark background. My room is fairly well treated, so I'm pinning all my hopes on getting them on proper stands at the proper recommended height (18").
Other than getting better stands, please feel free to share what else I could be doing to get them to work better in my media room (20 x 15 x 12).
I presume 3 feet from side wall and 4 feet from front wall are clear space from wall to speaker cabinet? Placement does not seem to be an issue if there is ample space from the walls. Is distance between speakers in the range of 6 to 8 feet centre to centre?
Open frame stands do make a difference but the sound quality with stands which come with a top plate should not sound too shabby.
My apologies for the confusion. I thought I already mentioned that I'm having the stands built by Z Audio (@trn) based out of Autin. He does an amazing job and is very responsive to special requests and designs. My questions were really about what more I can do in the meantime. Reading my own posts, I can see the inherent silliness. It doesn't make sense to spend any considerable amount of time fussing about positioning until I get the stands. But, FWIW, I was able to tame the bass quite a bit by pulling the speakers out further by another 6 inches and lowering the acoustic panels. I will order more panels from GIK to go closer to the floor. Also, I found that toe in has a pretty big impact on the sound, much more so than the Olympica 2 or 30.1s. I found that a toe in position where the left speaker is pointing right between my nose and right ear (and the reverse for the right speaker) is giving the best results -- much less bass and more centered, precise imaging. It does reduce the soundstage width a bit, but the results are worth it.
A huge thank you to everyone who contributed! I will post my impressions once the speakers are properly dialed in on stands, etc.
I don't know the specifics, but it appears to me that the SHL5+ uses a mid-range/woofer similar to, or in the same family as, the C7ES-3. I do wonder if this makes a difference w.r.t. the 30.X.
You mention acoustic panels. Are they bass traps, or...?
The ones that I lowered are situated on the side wall just a few inches ahead of the speakers where the first refection points are. Once I get proper stands, I will adjust the height again.
The sound signature still has the Harbeth family resemblance, but you were right that the 30 and 40 are voiced differently from the rest of the siblings. I know I need to be more patient and give the SHL5+ proper respect in terms of stands and placement before forming an opinion. I went through the same exercise with P3esr's.
@arafiq As it turned out, I got a pair of Harbeth SHL5+ XD and so far I like them immensely; I am having a wonderful time listening to music!! The system, with these speakers, presents a compelling and complete natural sound; I remarked to a fellow audio nut, that I was brought to goosebumps & tears whilst listening to Beethoven's 9th Symphony (Telarc label)-- something that has not happened in ages with my many recent systems; These are gorgeous sounding speakers and I keep going back to - the sound is "right"
-sorry for the double post - I figured moving to your Harbeth thread better than my now deprecated SF post, lol;
FWIW, I got them setup with the TonTrager stands; room is 13.5ft x 16ft x 9ft and the speakers are set on the window side of the room, which consists of a bay type bump out about 2 feet deep (starts at 8 feet centered in width of the room, and angles back to window which is 4 feet wide and set back about 2 feet); Floors are hickory and there is a small area rug; The bass becomes sucked out and lean as I move to the center of the room, and is perfect as I move closer to the speakers, and then again further back from center; I am 100% sure if I did a freq sweep in the various spots in the room the results would confirm the obviousness of the peaks/nulls in this particular space; Where I have found the best sound is about 2/3 back; here the quality of bass (clean/tight impact as well as low extension- I can hear and feel 30Hz ) is excellent. Transients, especially snare drum are so cleanly rendered I am just amazed; The whole enchilada, however, is stunning; When I had the 40.2 they were in a different room (big open basement with carpet on concrete, basement open plan about 35 x 40 x 8.5) and with totally different electronics, but there the results were basically not that great; This is not to say the SHL5+XD are better than the 40.2 in absolute terms; more like the speaker/room synergy matters massively as well as supporting gear, but definitely room trumps all; Once the basement remodel is complete (closing off a section to make a new room 14.5 x 21 x 8.5) I'll try it all down there;
@audiopacer -- thanks for sharing the details about placement. I am having the stands being built this week and hope to pick them up over the weekend. I'm really loving the speakers but the bass is still an issue. Of course, the speakers are sitting on an audio rack which is barely 8-10 inches off the floor. Hopefully, the new 18 inch stands will solve the problem. BTW, are you using a sub with the speakers?
1) shl5 too much for that room 12x13... they need 30-36 in around rear and sides to not bloat
2) tube amps on shl5 will exacerbate the bloat problem, lack of damping factor/current - too much mush not enough clarity and control - esp 6L6 ravens, weak tubes insufficient leverage through the transformers
3) i have shl5+ and the best amp is the hegels 190 or 390 - tremendous damping factor, reigns in the bass makes the woofer play nice never overshoot - furthermore, ultra smooth treble of the hegels mate perfectly with c7 shl5 tweeters which are a touch more lively than mon series which are rather rolled off both high and low
4) mon 30’s are ok but are too rolled off for me... not a full range speaker - maybe with rels they work well - to me they are a vocals and violins/violas specialty speaker left alone unsupported from below
5) given your room dimensions, the right speaker (sans sub) is the c7 -- paired with hegel, for same reasons as above (or pass or ayre, same ultra smoothness and lack of bloat but lil less damping factor than hegels) -- what you heard briefly in the c7 somewhere else was not proper implementation of c7’s
good luck have fun... seems like you are already :)
@jjss49 The SHL5+ are for my media room which is 20 x 15 x 12. They are 4 feet from the front wall and 3 from each side wall. I think the bass issue is because they’re not sitting on proper stands.I have them on audio racks which are barely 8-9 inches off the floor and too wide. I’m currently driving them with Luxman 590 axii. Hoping to get proper open style wooden stands in a few days which will be 18 inch tall as recommended by Harbeth. Let’s see if that solves the problem. The 30.1s are in my home office which is 12 x 13. I am using a rel sub in this room and to me they sound amazing when I try them with the Luxman. They still sound good with the Blackhawk but nowhere near as good as with the Luxman. I might try a Hegel in the near future as it’s high on my list of components to try.
@arafiq no subs yet; situation might change when in the larger room; The bass response in the current room is dependent on where listening; moving to the center ( about 8 feet from speaker face) is thinnest due to room mode- and steadily builds traveling closer to speakers or further back from room center; Room modes are our #1 chief problem in this game;
Your 12 foot ceilings are great ; I suspect the proper stands will do wonders for you; can't wait to hear about it;
Your Luxman 590 has plenty of grip on the woofer; As i'm sure you know, power cables can make a big difference too- some dim the highs accentuating the bass; Cheers
Finally got proper stands (open-style, wood, 18" tall, very similar to TonTrager) for the SHL5+, and what a difference they have made. The problem with excess bass that I described earlier is completely, 100% resolved. I have removed the REL subwoofer for the time being and still the bass from the speakers is astounding. You can actually feel the bass in your chest, something the SF Olympica IIs never achieved.
The other big surprise is the super tweeter. I guess it had to be raised further up the floor to really come into its own. The sound I’m getting now is airy, open, and extended. The soundstage has also improved both in terms of width and depth. One thing I appreciate is that the super tweeter only springs into action when called upon, otherwise it sits in the back and does not affect the music in a negative (bright, harsh) way. Well done, Harbeth!
Next weekend, I will do a side-by-side comparison between the SHL5+ and M30.1 and report back. But right now, I have to admit that the SHL5+ is proving to be a more engaging and versatile speaker compared to the M30.1. It is also, without a doubt, better than SF Olympica II in every regard.
anyone with real interest in the shl5's (and harbeths in general) should familiarize themselves with the spendor bc1 and the bbc licensing lineage ... understand why and how the speakers were developed and designed, and how they have evolved into the various modern day versions bigger and smaller
listeners will then understand their limitations (in past and present forms) why they do the things they do so well, and why their weaknesses are what they are...
@arafiq If you really want a curveball, one of the most interesting releases in recent years has been from Graham, another UK manufacturer in the BBC tradition, that brought out a LS5/5 update. https://www.grahamaudio.co.uk/products/ls55/ Unfortunately, in the States, Graham distribution is even more sparse than the Spendor Classic line.
@twoleftears The Ls5/5 design looks very interesting. When I was looking earlier, I did consider Graham and Falcon as Harbeth competitors. The problem is it is very difficult to audition these speakers anywhere. I have been burned in the past buying speakers without auditioning, so I decided to not take a chance.
For now, I have decided to sit back and enjoy the two Harbeths I already have in the house. The two speakers I have (M30.1 and SHL5+) are so different in character, yet each offers something unique and alluring that I’m finding it hard to declare an outright winner. They’re both extremely satisfying in their own way. The SHL5+ is more suited to the bigger room and definitely more versatile with different genres of music. The M30.1 is the perfect speaker for home office/study. It’s more buttoned down, coherent, and slightly better when it comes to stuff like tonality and timbre. It also sounds better at lower volumes. IMO, it does jazz, vocals, and small ensembles better, but gives it up to SHL5+ when it comes to rock, blues and indie music. The SHL5+ is definitely the more ’fun’ speaker between the two. It is more open, airy, dynamic, and the bass extension is far better.
The only weak link in my system is the Raven Audio Blackhawk driving the M30.1. The Blackhawk is definitely a great amp but perhaps better suited for more efficient speakers than Harbeth. No one should take it as a knock against Blackhawk, but I will say that their assertion that the 20 watts it offers are the equivalent of 100 SS watts is not true at all, at least in my experience. I will start looking for something else in a few months.
i give you two months to get mon 40s in the big room
]
Haha! Just saw this comment. I guess it takes one to know one ;) I would be lying if I told you the thought hadn’t crossed my mind. But right now, I have exhausted the goodwill of my spouse given what I’ve spent in the last 12 months. Having said that, I have a strong feeling that this will be the next logical step in a couple of years. For now I want to focus on music and get off the speaker upgrade merry go round. Read my lips ;)
I love Harbeth speakers. Easily in my top 5 favorite brands if not higher up.
I auditioned the whole line up and eventually owned the SuperHL5plus for a while.
When I compared the M30.1 vs the HL5plus, I found the M30 sounded wonderful, and even had a nice amount of bass for it's size. The main thing that pushed me more toward the HL5plus was that I found the M30 just a bit shelved off, a bit less airy, just a bit "darker-than-life" tonally,whereas the HL5Plus seemed to open up the high frequencies with greater realism, while maintaining much of the Harbeth midrange magic.
Also I appreciated the extra bass depth of the HL5plus, and how even it sounded from top to bottom. It's interesting that some people find the Harbeth speakers to be "pipe and slipper speakers" not suited to some genres like rock or electronica, but I found just the opposite: the HL5plus was so evenly balanced it sounded "right" for pretty much all genres.It was one of the best all rounder speakers I auditioned.
@prof Good observations, especially about the misconception regarding Harbeths being pipes and slippers speakers. I've always found them to be very well balanced.
I've been going back and forth between the SHL5+ and 30.1 and have to say they are both excellent speakers. Yes, the 30.1s are less airy ad open than SHL5+, but IMO they are better when it comes to vocals and midrange. They have a special quality where the human voice and instruments just pop out of a darker background. For me, this quality alone makes up for any other perceived deficiency. If you just want to sit back and relax and listen to jazz or vocals, the 30.1s have that special magic that even the SHL5+s don't. They do the 'small, intimate ensemble in your room' feel better than any other speaker I've ever owned. Of course, the SHL5+ are still more versatile and dynamic.
Arafiq, great news! Good to know the 18" stands brought a huge difference to the sound. It appears that you are torn between the M30.1 and SHL5+. What a nice problem to have.
@ryder Yes, indeed! What a nice problem to have. I feel blessed to own and listen to both speakers. I don't think I will be able to pick a favorite anytime soon :)
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