Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@cleeds

I like quibbling.  Quibbling is what we do here and you’re absolutely correct about Julian Hirsch. Mea culpa.

High Fidelity and what was first called Hi Fi Review were the two mass market magazines in the day They were pretty similar in approach. Hi Fi Review renamed itself Hi Fi Stereo review and then Stereo review as the industry changed. In 1989 them merged under the Stereo Review banner.

The argument over "objective" (which are often not objective) measurements vs. "subjective" (which need not be subjective) listening is as old as modern audio, perhaps older.

Some of us of a "certain" age will recall references to the "Julian Hirsch" school of objective audio reviewing. It was, at first, the only school. Julian Hirsch was the principal reviewer for "High Fidelity" magazine. It was pure measurement. No listening. It proved, for example, that cheap Japanese direct-drive turntables were better than expensive belt-drive turntables. Sometimes these were called manufacturer sanctioned measurements. I call these measurements not objective because if they don’t correspond to what you hear, you’re measuring the wrong things. They also measured electronic components for the usual specifications and "proved" that early solid state outperformed the best tubed electronics. They were busy selling whatever the mass producers were making.

So along come Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson (HP) with their iconoclastic choice of listening to systems and components. Though called and still called subjective, they showed there was an objective side to listening. That was an educated ear’s comparison to acoustic music in real space. HP soon invented a vocabulary of sound including the concept of "sound stage" He made it a requirement that his reviewers regularly attend concerts of live unamplified music. Most of that is classical. It was HP’s assertion that if a component was good on classical music it would be good on everything. The listening was always done by substituting the component into a familiar reference audio system and listening to familiar recordings, many of which were available for the reader to buy. That was followed by a discussion of how the component brought the system closer or further from the real thing. If this seems somewhat familiar to those on this thread it is because of @dbb’s outstanding writing. That kind of listener reviewing is very different from most of what I read these days which are simply multiple ways of saying, "I like it."

So this distinction between measurement and listening will go on and on. As has been shown there’s really no point to interrupting the other side’s party.

The reason testing crowd can't get past measurements is they simply can't get past the idea of NOT trusting their senses, or anyone else's for that matter. The one listening test they use, blind testing is so often inconclusive, which only proves the faultiness of our senses for them.  I've watched these O vs S arguments for so long, always circular, and always goes back to distrust of senses. I'd think it wise and logical for measurement crowd to measure listeners as much as the subject or component under review. For them, testing of listeners is validated by plenty of existing measurements of human hearing, the individual sensory perceptions never addressed. They invalidate individual sensory perception through a priori inability to control for it. In other word, individual biases of all kinds contaminate the results, therefore, this can't conform to good science.

Trying to apply science to audio reproduction and our individual sensory perceptions is a futile undertaking. Removing the individual sensory perception part of equation allows them to claim this is good science. I've argued at the point they have  robot or replicant  of myself, with testing apparatus built in to measure all my sensory perceptions in relation to reproduction of music over audio components I'll believe this good science.

Testing and measurements also bring to mind, analog/vinyl setups vs digital, vinyl measures much worse in some parameters, yet many consider vinyl reproduction the reference for audio reproduction. I certainly hear a difference in analog vs digital audio reproduction. Do SINAD , dynamic range, or any other measurements explain explain all these differences. And what about the instruments that produce this music, can measurements explain the texture and tonality of a Stradivarious violin vs. that of  generic,  both measure exactly the same, they HAVE to sound the same according to measurement crowd!  Well, I guess musicians have been wasting their money on these equally instruments for centuries, they're just imagining they have superior or even different sound qualities. Not hard to imagine the smugness of those who judge us as deluded and reliant on our totally faulty sensory perceptions. I can only say I'm awestruck by the textures and colors I hear at live concerts and in music reproduction on my system, the unmeasurable content makes all the difference for me!

@dbb Yes but it's your brain telling you it sounds different when the tests speak for themselves. How could one piece of wire sound different from another one? It's just impossible.

We're all scientists here so don't dispute the facts.

Jen Psaki and all her BS would get on great over there.

@ja_kub_sz

+1

I have read by this point in my career thousands of EKGs of my patients. That EKG analogy was awfully poor and misguided. ASR and Audiogon are clearly two very different crowds. Good that they both exist and readers can simply choose what suits them best.

Charles

Another interesting (and obvious) question is do to different pieces of audio equipment that measure the same sound the same. If the answer is no, then the ASR philosophy goes down in flames.

@yyzsantabarbara 

I totally get the rational of @toddk31 of returning the DAC. I may have done the same thing if I were in his shoes.

I look at it this way. I am lucky I bought the DAC and listened before these measurements issues arose. Reason being I was in the camp that my gear has to both measure well and also sound good to me. I likely would have returned the DAC.

However, today I have a changed my view on the measurements as a main criteria for keeping gear. The 005 has shown me that it is not the most important factor. BTW - I said this on the ASR 005 thread and people got offended, mainly because I heard differences in DACs.

Sometimes fundamental logic has to take centerstage. you have possession of a DAC in your home with easy access to your audio system. Would not the first rational step be to placed it into the system and simply listen? if not, why not? It is puzzling that the first inclination is to ship a newly purchased and unheard DAC off to be measured. Again why not hear it first in your own familiar audio system?

It is an "audio" component which would imply that it is to be used to listen to music reproduced in one’s home. I am trying to understand the logic of how test measurements supersede the optimal opportunity to hear and judge in your own system. Interesting priorities.

Charles

@dbb "EKG if someone has an irregular heart rhythm without using a stethoscope to hear it with our own ears."

I basically said on ASR... Said person with arrythmia can also run faster, jump higher and lift more weight then person without arrythmia. So what does the presence of said arrythmia mean then?

So is a heart rate of 40bpm better then 80bpm... The 40bpm is Lebron James FYI... Now the 40bpm is a 1 year old infant. Context is important but theses numbers aren’t absolutes.

Yeah ASR is a tough crowd.

Ok "The ESS Hump", apparently all ESS chips have this hump and is well known throughout the industry.

Most people agree it’s inaudible but some others claim they can hear it but give no description regarding what it sounds like.

It cannot be fixed by software or firmware, it needs capacitors installed to fix it, if it needs to be fixed at all.

IMHO it’s a solution looking for a problem. Maybe the ESS 9039 new chips which were launched just a few days ago will not have this issue, they also support MQA final unwrapping too.

@melm Since you have such a good relationship with Jinbo maybe he could find out if this hump is present in the new chips. ESS has manufacturing and research facilities in China. If they don’t then this could be very much turned into a positive if Musetec could give the option of upgrading chips, at a cost of course, for those so interested.

@yyzsantabarbara 

I appreciate your comment and open mindedness. 

I totally get the rational of @toddk31 of returning the DAC. I may have done the same thing if I were in his shoes.

I look at it this way. I am lucky I bought the DAC and listened before these measurements issues arose. Reason being I was in the camp that my gear has to  both measure well and also sound good to me. I likely would have returned the DAC.

However, today I have a changed my view on the measurements as a main criteria for keeping gear. The 005 has shown me that it is not the most important factor. BTW - I said this on the ASR 005 thread and people got offended, mainly because I heard differences in DACs.

I am still looking to buy a second Black 005. I have a 3rd Sonore OpticalRendu on it's way to my home from another A'gon poster who was selling it. That will be used with the 2nd 005 I want to get. I will be using 3 DACs with 3 OpticalRendu's.

There is an extreme hostility over at ASR that I don't comprehend .  I re-posted a comment here that I originally posted there. The comment was largely censored and I was excoriated.  It was at 249: 

I edited your hilarious post for just the humdingers—although it was hard to remove a single word, because the entire piece was so perfect in its unabridged form. I think it’s just hysterical that you actually question whether those of us on this forum actually listen to or appreciate music!

To answer your final question (which I suspect was meant to be rhetorical), this DAC sounds like crap, especially for its price. We know that as surely as we can tell from an EKG if someone has an irregular heart rhythm without using a stethoscope to hear it with our own ears. The measurements confirm that there are noise and distortion present, and no one with an ounce of common sense would bother going through the trouble and expense to listen to these defects to confirm.

You apparently made your choice before this data was available, and no one would judge you for that—not even if you loved the sound. But everyone on here knows you’re getting so bent out of shape only because your denial is so impenetrable that you can’t accept the truth. Where you warrant judgment is in your efforts to demean those of us on this forum who value science and data informing our purchase decisions, implying that we’re a bunch of unenlightened, cerebral rubes who have no appreciation for music.

I can think of nothing more irresponsible in this hobby than trying to gaslight others into making your own extremely costly mistake, just so you’ll feel better about it. There’s been a lot of it on this forum today, and it’s such a killjoy for those of us who are here to learn and share good information with other like-minded hobbyists.

"I don't buy equipment only if it exactly matches the manufacturer's promises, but only if I like it. And that's what I try out at home."

Yea verily, a Daniel is come to judgement.

I cannot understand this. Who cares how a dac measures if it sounds great in your system and you like it? Surly sound transcends all. ASR is a joke site and has done a lot of damage to some manufacturers. Perhaps someone should ask why Topping gets so much praise on the site. It looks very fishy to me.
 

Otherwise, pursue a set of measurements for each and every component and be secure in knowing you have the best measuring system.

and possibly risk the lack of musical enjoyment factor that we all are primarily after 😁 If that’s not the goal, then perhaps they are in the wrong hobby.

@sns nicely put.

I found my 004 pretty inferior to 005, it would be very interesting to see the 004 under measurement microscope.

Three kind of purchasers, those that require good measurements together with long term listening, and those who rely solely on good measurement, or solely on long term listening. Since independent measurements not generally included in most reviews, most purchasers have to rely on the other two methods. Now, when those who purchased based solely on listening find out later measurements not so good, well, they're going to freak out or trust in their listening skills. Those who purchase based solely on measurements believe they have the upper hand since sound quality will fall in line with measurements.

My listening skills have been developed to please my individual sensory perceptions. I've owned great measuring components and relatively  poor measuring components, they all have a voice that either pleases or displeases my individual sensory perception. Most components I've owned have never undergone independent testing, therefore, I rely solely on long term listening. The only purchasing method I've not used is relying solely on measurements. And I don't know why I would when some of the better measuring components I've owned are no longer with me, surpassed by perhaps poorer measuring components.

I can only say, learn to hone and/or trust your listening skills if that's your preferred method for determining which components to purchase. Being offended or insecure about 005 qualities at this point only points to one's distrust in their listening skills and/or individual sensory perceptions. One has to understand what sound qualities please their senses in order to not flounder about with insecurities. Otherwise, pursue a set of measurements for each and every component and be secure in knowing you have the best measuring system.

Melm thank you for a reasoned post. I have already told Jason that I would entertain auditioning 005 after jinbo addresses the spec issue. After all this vitriol I’m done for a while. I’m sure jinbo will address the issues. At this point it-was just easier to return unit since Jason an jinbo agreed.  Again those guys have been great about this whole mess.  I do not feel cheated in any way.  Sometimes things don’t just turn out the way u want them. It seems that me the guy that started this whole s**tstorm is the only one who is completely happy how that seller an mnfcter handled the issue.  Everyone be happy listening to their music an gear.  

@toddk31 

I just thought I’d echo what @2pol wrote.

Your LKS 004, like the one I had, would probably test about the same as the Musetec 005. Yet you liked the work of the designer enough, just as I did, to order the Musetec.

If you haven’t sent it back yet, have you considered giving it a try in your system? I’m certain Jason would extend his return offer to give you that chance. You’d have nothing to lose. Jason would have nothing to lose.

I think you feel cheated because of the published specs, and I understand that and have written so to Jinbo. But if you have the chance to listen to the DAC in your system, you should probably take advantage of it. It’s an interesting circumstance and we’d all be glad to hear of your reaction to its sound performance.

Best of luck however you go.

Hello toddk31,
You did not do anything wrong by sending to Amir. But did Amir also measure your lks? Were the results great?
I don't buy equipment only if it exactly matches the manufacturer's promises, but only if I like it. And that's what I try out at home. The other stuff is returned or resold used. This has happened to many expensive devices, but not to Musetec. It is exceptional! 
It's playing at my place right now (just as well as it did 3 days ago, by the way! ). You're making a huge mistake if you don't hear the Musetec for yourself.
I wish you to find your peace (one way or another).
But you will be angry not about the things you did, but about the opportunities you missed. 
Greetings 
Frank

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

I accused no one of anything. No I did not listen to the dac. An independent review brought out a different set of specs other than was published . Again I very much enjoy my lks dac.  Jason an jinbo have been upfront an admirable. Why do u people keep piling on. Did not meet published specs.  They honored my return an they gained respect in my eyes. I hope if u guys bought a $3000 piece of equipment that the seller would be as upstanding as Jason.  I’m done with this. It seems the only peeps upset are the ones who don’t like the outcome of Amir’s measurements. Prove him wrong please. 

Jeez can u people read! I bought the dac because I own the earlier iteration the lks 004. Which I like very much. I bought the dac because I like his work. I like my lks more than my holo spring v1 kte. I am not trying to slam or put down musetec. I’m sorry some of u are not happy with an outside independent review. I would love for one of you audiogon members to send your 005 dac to a different person that could conduct independent testing. I hope jinbo can correct this anomaly or someone can show that Amir’s measurements are a one off. I think jinbo will correct the dac and fix the issue. I know he takes pride in his work. Who knows this whole episode could be a win win for everyone. I certainly hope so. Any anger directed at me is misguided. I have stated more than once how good jason and Midwest audio have been. Just put on some good music and relax.

stop accusing everybody because some individuals said something to you. I had put an honest question and the fact that you are going in circles says a lot. Does it really matter what you think of the designer, how good and faithful he is or how good the dealer is ? The question is about a DAC you purchased based on certain technical numbers and knowingly would get ASR to review. You didn’t even bother to listen to it before sending it back and yet you say you have and like the 004 ? Something just doesn’t add up. I am not sure about your intentions but for the record I don’t even own the 005 nor any LKS products.

Yes, there are definitely two camps.

I have to admit that I should have stopped reading ASR. But some of the opinions there are unforgettable so I had ti go back. On p. 15 there is a post by AudioEd. He says he has a number of fine DACs including the Musetec and he likes how the Musetec sounds. He likes it better than his Chord Dave, an RME ADI-2 Pro FS B and a Topping, but not quite as much as his Holo May KTE. The responses he gets are so typical from that site.

Here’s the first:

"Perhaps you should make reasonable statements? How many times does it have to be pointed out that a state of the art dac has no proper sound? You just provide a list of several very costly dacs and then throw out wild guesses about their sound quality. . . You can go on and burn your money, but please, spare us with your dac sound quality nonsense."

And then another:

"Here we go again. Please go back and review prior comments (and perhaps the educational section offered to you elsewhere on ASR pertaining to the technology behind DACs) to comprehend that DACs shouldn’t have a ’sound’"

And another:

"People will probably bet big money that you won’t be able to distinguish any of the DACs in a controlled blind listening test. . . Every alleged sound difference you perceive today is due to unconscious bias of a sighted test. No human is immune to that. Therefore only ABX Tests are meaningful."

I could go on, but you get the point.

@toddk31

Your comments are interesting. You readily acknowledge that the Musetec 005 very likely sounds great (A worthy not easily achieved outcome). That would seem to be the overwhelming objective for an “audio “  component to do. If it sounds “great “ why would one get rid of it? Great sound, but disappointing measurements so it is a no go?

Did you have a listen to it within your audio system? How was it? I’m just curious as to what criteria you deem most important and necessary to enjoy listening to your preferred music reproduced and provide joy and happiness. It would seem that sounding great is a very good place to start. This has been a good discussion folks.

Thanks

Charles

Jeez can u people read!   I bought the dac because I own the earlier iteration the lks 004. Which I like very much. I bought the dac because I like his work. I like my lks more than my holo spring v1 kte.  I am not trying to slam or put down musetec.  I’m sorry some of u are not happy with an outside independent review. I would love for one of you audiogon members to send your 005 dac to a different person that could conduct independent testing. I hope jinbo can correct this anomaly or someone can show that Amir’s measurements are a one off. I think jinbo will correct the dac and fix the issue. I know he takes pride in his work.  Who knows this whole episode could be a win win for everyone. I certainly hope so. Any anger directed at me is misguided. I have stated more than once  how good jason and Midwest audio have been. Just put on some good music and relax.  

@toddk31 you bought the 005 solely based on measurements that was published by the manufacturer ?

Kairosman. Thank you.   Some people need to get a life!  If lordmelton is pissed about asr review his anger should be directed not at me but the person who originally posted the 005 specs, which the unit I was sold did not meet. I’m sure the 005 is a good dac if not a great sounding dac. I have been into audio since the early 80’s an own a lot of top shelf gear. Been a member of audiogon since 2003.  I rarely post because of the keyboard warriors who can have some not rational responses.  Again thanks for the support.

Virtually all mass produced entry level DACs/CD players made by the mainstream brands follow the same recipe. Op-Amps (Inexpensive off the shelve varieties) utilized for I/V conversion and analog output stage duties.

They employ generous amounts of NFB (Negative feedback) and do one thing consistently well, they yield very good test measurements and specifications. How do they reproduce music and engage the listener? Seemingly that's besides the point. They will measure quite good, mission accomplished.

Certainly it is true to say, "to each their own". I'll chose the talented designer who makes decisions .based on extensive listening and reassessment. I do not find any particular comfort with good spec numbers on paper. It has to sound very good when listening to music.

Charles

@charles1dad 

Amen

Lordmelton  I have never ever done any review of any hifi piece of equipment ever. Your mean spirited comment towards me is totally unwarranted. How many times do I have to state that I like my lks 004 thus my reasoning for purchasing the 005. The fact that the unit sent to Amir did not meet spec and that jason would accept the return show good business sense and proper customer care. I have not said anything disparaging about you or musetec. Your comment to me was totally classless.  I’m sorry that someone rained on your favorite dac but it wasn’t me. Why don’t u send your dac off to an independent person that could run test on your dac. I’m kinda done here. It’s people like you and your unwarranted put downs that can give forums like this a bad name.

As for the two pictures of the Musetec interior. It would appear that they were taken at various stages of the design of the Musetec. Recall that the designer said he made upwards of 10 designs and did a lot of listening before decided upon the final design for release.

Notice on the one with the black case that there is no connection between the digital board and the analog board. It could not, therefore, be a working model; it was one somewhere in the process.

I received this message late last night from Jinbo Li, designer and manufacturer of the Musetec:

Our current testing equipment can’t compare with ASR’s equipment. Their equipment is the highest grade at present. As I said in my previous email, I really don’t pay much attention to testing performance. But I think the real test performance fully meets the requirements. The main problem in ASR test is that SINAD is not good. This is mainly caused by multiple harmonics. The overall base noise of DAC is still very low. The main reason for this is that, as friends of audiogon forum said, low negative feedback at the output stage will increase distortion, but the sound will have rich texture, while deep negative feedback will make the test data better, but it will obviously make the sound colder and drier. Many experienced enthusiasts understand this situation.

Products serve people. We must recognize this before we can choose the right direction in the design.

However, I will still buy a high-end tester of the same grade as ASR equipment for verification. I hope to make some efforts next. According to the verification results, if necessary, I will update the design for some customers in need. I will try my best to serve every loyal customer friend.

It is now my intention to tell him that no one who has a Musetec 005 has yet expressed a desire for a modification that would improve measurement specifications if it is at the expense of the final sound quality as he perceives it. That note won’t go out for several hours.

As an aside, many of us find tubed electronics and/or analog sound to do very well at sounding like the real thing. At the same time we know they cannot compete in specifications with solid state and digital.

I want to give a shout out to Jason at Midwest audio regarding my purchase of the musetec dac that was sent to Amir for review. Having owned the lks 004 and liking it very much I ordered the 005 and had it sent to Amir, Jason was fully aware that it was going to asr for review. He and I were both disappointed in some measurements that obviously did not meet the published specs. According to jinbo he is going to look into the issue. Jason has kindly accepted the return of the unit and has promised a refund. Neither of us expected the review results. The only reason I returned the unit is because the unit shipped may have a problem or may not. Not willing at this point to gamble knowing it did not meet spec. I appreciate very much Jason’s help and he has been a stand up guy in this whole mess. I hope jinbo will address the issue and be forthcoming with more information down the road. For all of the people bent about the asr review take a chill. I’m sure the dac sounds great as witnessed by all of you all that own it. I’m no electronic engineer but i know in a digital source that jitter an the dreaded ess hump are issues that should not be present in a $3000 dac.  Again thanks to Jason. I never intended to creat such a s**tshow about dac. The review could have a negative effect on his business and jinbo’s business. That was not the outcome we expected. So I hope jinbo can successfully address the spec issues.  I find no problem existing in the audiogon world and the asr world at the same time. Again we all enjoy our music and that’s the point of both worlds. Carry on and bash me if u want to, I could care less.

@debjit_g The silver 005 with the 4 FETs must be the earlier model because this pic on Head Fi is dated 24th Oct 2020

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k-s-audio-mh-da004-dual-es9038pro-dac-van-dammes-double-impact.840938/page-197#post-15936281

Maybe original 005 was within published spec but they decided to tweak it to improve SQ. I'm not complaining.

The black 005 is the same pic as is on Musetec's Website so I guess this is the current incarnation.

http://www.mu-sound.com/DA005-detail.html

The two images @lordmelton posted, I could see some more differences as well

1. A Mundrof cap near the digital input section removed in the 2nd image 

2. Heat sinks from two chips near the analog section is removed from the 2nd image.

I am not sure which one is the latest. It would be awesome if someone who got the unit recently be brave enough to open the unit and post couple of pictures 😊

@lordmelton this actually adds more confusion as to who has what version and how do they differentiate in sound or which one sounds better.

it would be worthwhile if the manufacturer clarifies when they switched and why its not called out - hardware changes needing a board respin will usually have a version label, like v1 vs v2, or similar by most manufacturers.

however,

One actual fact that has arisen is that there are two versions of the 005. Checkout the pics below and note that one has what seems to be an off the shelf Amanero Board with two oscillators. Whilst the other has an Amanero Board with three oscillators. I believe the latter is Musetec's custom Amanero Board, so I surmise this is the later model.

Both the USB boards has 3 oscillators - it’s just that they are of different type.

"

Todd you don’t get it, if Amir says it’s bad it usually sounds good.

Topping D90 is the best performing DAC in the world according to ASR..lol"

This is the first thing that Melton has ever posted that I agree with.

@kairosman I also owned and sold the Topping D90SE. The D90SE will sound very good on speakers. It is very much like the Benchmark DAC3B. However, if you send the DAC signal to some headphones you may notice that the D90SE is a bit harsher than a DAC3B. Compared to the Musetec 005 the D90SE is much harsher on headphones.

I used the RAAL SR1a to test this out. I am not sure if there is any other headphone as revealing as the SR1a.

I had the Topping pre90 + D90SE + Benchmark AHB2 + KEF LS50 as my uber revealing setup. I sold the Topping and put back a Benchmark LA4 pre + DAC3B, which I found better in mostly features and a bit better in sound.

I use the 005 now with the Benchmark LA4 preamp. All I hear in this setup is the 005 and it sounds great. I used a CODA 07x preamp before but that colored (in a nice way) the sound of the 005. I like the naked 005 sound more.

One actual fact that has arisen is that there are two versions of the 005. Checkout the pics below and note that one has what seems to be an off the shelf Amanero Board with two oscillators. Whilst the other has an Amanero Board with three oscillators. I believe the latter is Musetec's custom Amanero Board, so I surmise this is the later model.

Power board differences show 2 FETS and 4 FETS and minor capacitor changes.

I will not speculate on distortion or the reasons for it, my contributions to this thread speak for themselves. These boards are easily changed if anyone is so inclined, I can't detect any other differences.

Yours in Musetec

As per some others here I feel that Jinbo should only publish consistently reproducible measurements, otherwise it is difficult for potential new customers to trust him otherwise. I get the temptation for a small company to publish attractive specs, but these days with the ASR gear measurements making their way through the hifi forums, it is better in the long run to be accurate. 

Btw I have been listening to the measurements champion Topping D90SE all day and so far I have no complaints. It is many hours away from completing burn in, but I gotta say so far it is clean and yet not harsh sounding. 

Any old competent engineer can design a DAC that tests well.
I’m interested in music, so what I do is try hard to design a product to sound good. Period. Measurements notwithstanding. They just fall out, and are what they are.

For example, as one user has written elsewhere, "the majority of the distortions comes from the discrete I/U and output stage. The output amplifier and buffer has no feedback (I think). Without it the distortion values cannot compete against integrated op amps."

Virtually all mass produced entry level DACs/CD players made by the mainstream brands follow the same recipe. Op-Amps (Inexpensive off the shelve varieties) utilized for I/V conversion and analog output stage duties.

They employ generous amounts of NFB (Negative feedback) and do one thing consistently well, they yield very good test measurements and specifications. How do they reproduce music and engage the listener? Seemingly that's besides the point. They will measure quite good, mission accomplished.

Certainly it is true to say, "to each their own". I'll chose the talented designer who makes decisions .based on extensive listening and reassessment. I do not find any particular comfort with good spec numbers on paper. It has to sound very good when listening to music.

Charles

One option designers use to obtain better specs is applying more feedback to a circuit. Generally, this adds a sterility the 005 certainly doesn't need. Per @fl_guy not meeting Musetec published specs is problematic. This is how China manufacturers get themselves in trouble here, we expect honesty, you don't retain your position in marketplace with marketing deception.

Still, as has been mentioned previously, the dac will sound the same today as it did prior to ASR review. While I don't much agree with ASR  philosophy, I'd rather see equipment that both measures and sounds great vs only one of the two.

Hello ,

i am writing from Europe  and I have been following this forum from the beginning. Thanks to sns, lordmelton, melm and everyone else for sharing the experience with 005. I decided to buy 005 because the best option is price / quality / I I2s. As far as ASR is concerned - measurements are not everything. Even the hi end DAC R2R Rockna  doesn't have perfect measurements, but it sounds very, very good. My current DAC Soncoz SGD 1 ($ 450) is identical to mola mola tambaqui ($ 10,000) by ASR measurements. Emotions cannot be measured =)) Eventually Jinbo Li can fix the ESS hump (as did the engineer of Soncoz SGD 1)

Likewise, I would prefer and choose better sound vs better spec.s if it does come down to that. I think that all of use who enjoy this DAC feel this way. Who knows, maybe his investigation just might lead to even more refinement, and further elevation of the sound quality/reproduction as @sns suggested might be possible?

Much respect is due to Jinbo imo for his continued pursuit of the best sound at reasonable price points over many generations of products. From what we’ve seen and heard of his products so far, I doubt that he would sacrifice sound quality for better measurements, but as let’s see what he finds and proposes. I look forward to his findings, and proposal if any.

This is my follow-up to the publication of Jinbo Li’s short letter yesterday and his more extended communication this morning.  He is the designer/engineer and manufacturer of the Musetec DAC.  After a day of reflection I’m becoming more and more appreciative of the normally taciturn Jinbo who says, effectively:

Any old competent engineer can design a DAC that tests well.
I’m interested in music, so what I do is try hard to design a product to sound good. Period. Measurements notwithstanding. They just fall out, and are what they are.

For example, as one user has written elsewhere, "the majority of the distortions comes from the discrete I/U and output stage. The output amplifier and buffer has no feedback (I think). Without it the distortion values cannot compete against integrated op amps."

I would not have him change my own DAC to meet the need for a better specification.

I wonder what the audiophile public will make of a product that is designed only by listening without reference to tecnical specs, and that does not publish technical specifications. One thing it may do is to define better the term "audiophile."

I did advise him that when you publish technical specifications you invite tests that should confirm those specifications. So perhaps he should revise that part of his site.

@sns
I suppose we’ll have to wait and pose the question when he puts forward an option. My guess is that it will compromise sound. I’m not certain why he is proposing to go in that direction. I know he has always felt a great obligation to his customers.

Btw, also I didn't state that the DA005 doesn't meet standards, or that ASR doesn't like the measured results (which is definitely true :-).

What I pointed out was IF (and I emphasized the IF) the measured performance is correct, then it doesn't meet the specs claimed by the manufacturer. That seems like a reasonable observation to me. No?

@debjit_g re: ... "On a serious note, you can never win a battle over there and neither they can win a battle over here. It’s a never ending story that started ever since the dawn of the day and will continue till apocalypse ☠️
After all this is a hobby. Don’t take things seriously and personally."

I agree completely. If I may, I suggest that everyone relax - and perhaps hold off on the name calling.

@lordmelton, please relax.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it is quite incorrect.

If you follow ASR, the rule of thumb is the DAC will likely sound great if it measures poorly over there 🤣 God knows what will happen if they start measuring Pass amps and tube gears.

On a serious note, you can never win a battle over there and neither they can win a battle over here. It’s a never ending story that started ever since the dawn of the day and will continue till apocalypse ☠️
 

After all this is a hobby. Don’t take things seriously and personally. The sky is not going to fall apart if the published spec doesn’t meet any standards. Who cares.